All Grain Advantages?

[alcibiades]

com'on, you know you want to....don't you love peer pressure??

peer pressure? or BEER pressure?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

My tone is not elitist. I am just trying to tell people what I wish someone would have told me 4 years ago. You may be fine with the system you are talking about. Many are not. All options should be presented and far to often people are on here saying, "GO AG! GO AG! It only cost $5!" and I don't believe that to be true. I followed that logic, and as a result am still spending money on my rig that I wish I would be spending on ingredients. I only brew half as much as I wish because most of my cash goes toward my system. If someone had told me to plan things out a few years ago I would have this now:

Instead of my still cobbled system.

Many like to do things on the cheap and I understand that. It is fine. I just think people are better served by sticking with extract longer and going AG when you have a system that you will actually be happy with.

It is the same line of thinking as people who build up HB as the best thing since sliced bread. In all likelihood your first couple homebrews are going to be bad beer. Drinkable and fun for sure and they will make you happy, but people who say they are brewing beer at professional quality in their first 2-3 brews are either lairs or have horrible palettes.

Again, I am not being a downer, I just think both sides of the argument need to be presented. I think great beer can be made with extract given good yeast management and fermentation schedules. What is the rush to give yourself a headache with a cobbled system?

 

[BrewMeister49]

you can brew AG stove top, BUT to brew with ease and have more control over everything I HIGHLY reccomend a cooler tun! if you do 5 gallon batches, i would just get a 10 gallon cooler. they say that a 5 gallon tuns can hold 15 pounds of grain, but add water and you are up to the TIPPY TOP and spill some mash water.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I strongly disagree 100%. You may not believe this, but I get so much enjoyment out of my ghetto setup. And I make some pretty f'in good beer, if I don't say so myself.

I do believe you and am not knocking it. I am just saying I think there are better ways to go.

It is important to know the problems before you buy the solution. So, I would ALWAYS recommend that the budding brewer spend as little as possible and brew as much as possible. Learn the process, find the problems with it, then spend $$. That is my opinion.

I thought this way 4 years and thousands of dollars ago.

:EDIT: Also, I am in no way saying that my system is the best or the only way to go. I just use it as an example of the kind of planning and forethought that can produce a great system without wasting money. There are countless awesome systems on this site. Pick and choose the features you think are best. If you don't know what is best, find out before buying anything (e.g., brew with some other people, talk to people here, watch brewcasts like Bobby_M's right now, etc.).

 

[weirdboy]

You forgot a mash tun.

No, I didn't. 2 pots, a stove, and a paint strainer bag do the trick.

That is to say, certainly you can put together a cooler MLT and use it, but it's definitely not necessary. When I first went AG I built a 12-gallon MLT for about $45 for all the parts, and I used it a bunch. But then I decided it was a lot of extra work to use that cooler and maybe I could try just doing it in my "extra" pot on the stovetop. It was so much easier to manage the entire process on the stovetop than with the MLT involved. I now do maybe half of my batches using the MLT and half on the stovetop. I also reuse my MLT as a fermentation chamber.

 

[pnj]

I stayed away from all grain for years, thinking it was too hard, or required equipment I didn't have or could not afford.

Thanks to this site, I have done 3 AG batches and have no plans to look back.

I had a cooler that I converted into a tun for under 5 bucks. I purchased an extra cheapo 5 gallon pot at K-mart for 25 bucks and I'm in business. I actually did my first AG with no extra equipment purchases, I just followed Deathbrewers ideas and made beer. and I was Stoked! I used to pay nearly $45.00 for a batch of beer and now my ingrediants cost half of that.

I do dream of building a neat brewing rig but living in my apartment and with my current financial issues, I won't be doing that anytime soon.

I can't believe how easy AG is. The only time increase is waiting for a higher volume of water to boil on my TINY stove and waiting for an hour while my mash mashes...

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I forgot to actually address the money issue. My budget only allows me to spend about $120 total a month for personal stuff. That includes clothes, haircuts, and anything I want to buy myself. You would be surprised how fast a year goes. If you have a clear plan of what to buy, you would be amazed at how fast your dream system can be yours. I will probably have mine done in another year.

 

[CharlosCarlies]

So, I would ALWAYS recommend that the budding brewer spend as little as possible and brew as much as possible.

I agree...to a point. I did the same thing that probably most ppl do. I bought an extract kit from from my LHBS, made some ****ty beer, and over time eventually upgraded to the system I have now (which I'm still not totally pleased with but the beer is better!). I wish I had found this forum a long time ago because now I'm stuck with a whole bunch of stuff I don't need.

I guess this whole argument comes down to what kind of person you are. I've always been a tinkerer and can't help but find flaws/annoyances in my process. I do this with everything.

When I bought my first motorcycle, everybody was telling me "man, buy something w/ a small engine, get comfortable with it, and upgrade later if you want". Well, I'm the type that usually knows what I want. I knew I wouldn't be happy with a little 250cc enduro, but I let my friends talk me into it. It didn't take one month before I wanted something else...so I sold it and went all the way up to a 1200cc Buell that I'm in love with. It would have saved me a lot of time, and a little money, to just go straight for what I wanted from the beginning.

Of course like Boer and I both mentioned, some people are perfectly happy w/ the simplest setup they can put together and I think that's awesome! I wish I could be more like that...but as always, different strokes for different folks. I think everybody needs to decide for themselves what is truly "necessary" and what isn't.

 

[RCCOLA]

I only brew half as much as I wish because most of my cash goes toward my system.

HMMM......

I brew all that I want b/c I'm NOT spending all my money on something that's not important for me to have.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

It would be important to you if you knew what you were missing

I just brewed with basically my full system just with no whistles two weeks ago and it was by far my most enjoyable brewday ever. by...far....

T o each his own as has been said. I am a mechanical engineer with a strong creative side and a desire for efficiency and order. Clutter and make shift systems make me want to kill a man.

 

[rico567]

There are many things in the mix in this discussion about the move to AG brewing.....which I have done within the past month. Actually, if you count my first brewday as "moving to AG," then it's only been 3 weeks ago.

First. There seem to be the people like "CharlosCarlies" in the previous post, who know exactly what they want, but don't get it right away, for one reason or another. I'm not qualified to speak to that, because I've only been brewing (in this incarnation...another story) for a bit under two years, and I didn't have any idea when I started of where I wanted to go, or what I'd need to get there.

Second. When I started, since I didn't know what I wanted, I did what large numbers of people have probably done- bought a kit from a supplier (Midwest's Intermediate kit, which gave me a great start, and even now is only $130), and started making extract kits w/ specialty grains. I bought a 7.5 gal. SS brewpot on sale for $40 delivered. I quickly realized that I was going to need a few other items to ease the process. I bought a long-stemmed thermometer for $15, and a "vinator" pump to sanitize bottles for $20. That Christmas, Santa brought me a copper wort chiller, $50. Pretty much everything else was already in the kitchen, so I was brewing away for a while.

I took some good advice and started doing full 5-gal boils from the start, but even with splitting the heating among 3 vessels to speed up the time to boil, our Jenn-Air propane cooktop would only produce an anæmic bubbling boil. That resulted in a $40 investment to insulate the brewpot.

The logistics of moving bottles around quickly led me to some 10 gal. totes for $6 apiece, that will each hold 32 longnecks. I ended up with a half-dozen of those, total $30.

I ran out of existing shelving for "inventory," so I bought some cheap shelving on sale for $25.

At some point I needed more secondary fermenter space, so I bought a couple of $5 Better Bottles, $36.

Along the way, I bought some "small parts" that probably add up to $50.

That is my extract investment, and adds up to somewhere between $400 - 450.

As 2009 progressed, a variety of factors convinced me it was time to move to AG. These may or may not be relevant to others who've done the same, so I'll pass on that here, since we're talking investment.

I bought the Rubbermaid 10 gal. cooler ($40 at HD) and a Bargain Fittings kit ($45) and had my MLT for $85.

I bought the Bayou Classic SP-10 burner for $55.

Got a cheap refractometer on eBAy for $25 delivered.

Decided I was tired of waiting for thermometers to give readings, so I splurged on the new water-resistant Thermapen - $104 delivered.

Almost as an afterthought, I decided that I was going to crush my own grain, and bought a "Corona" type mill for $24 delivered, and maybe $2 worth of hardware to achieve a suitable mount.

I am now on my 3rd AG batch, and have around $750 invested in brewing gear (OK, I may have forgotten a few things, add another $100 if you want) I think everything's working the way I expect, from my own brewing experience, what I've read, and what other people have told me.

I bottle- period. I make ales- period.

Now. If anyone wants to convince me to keg, keezer, RIMS, HERMS, PID, recirculate, single, double, triple tier, fire away. But I've done a limited amount of reading here and there on the forums, and so far, I remain unconvinced that this stuff is going to improve my life or my beer. I realize I have an advantage in having a basement that stays at a pretty much ideal fermentation temperature year-round, but that's just the luck of the draw.

I am -somewhat- attracted by the idea of 10 gallon batches, strictly from the standpoint of having to brew fewer times, but.....not enough. I'm brewing maybe 20-25 5 gallon batches a year, and can't see my needs changing any time soon. In fact, I'm now brewing two-thirds of what the law allows. I really think the only arguments I'd be susceptible to at this point would be how moving to a different system of brewing would materially increase the quality of my beer. And since my first AG batches aren't even bottled yet, we'll have to wait on that.

 

[RCCOLA]

I'm a mechanic and LOVE cool tools that make my job easier,but for some reason to me brewing is more about the process than the equipment.
I hit my strike temps exactly to the degree,eff. is ALWAYS 72%(and I'm happy w/ that),OG-FG and volumes are always exactly what I've figured.My beer is great.I have absolutely no reason to upgrade.
I'm not knocking you wanting to have a badass system but some of us actually don't want that.
I've actually thought recently about what I would want to upgrade in my system and honestly can find not 1 thing I want.
Awhile back I built a rifle to shoot accurately long range-custom trigger,big mil-dot scope,expensive rings-and it shoots 1/2" groups at 100yds.Exactly what I wanted.
You know which rifle I grab when I have to shoot something?NOT that one.I grab my single shot .22mag w/ iron sights!
I figure if I built a big brew rig it would be like that rifle that just sits in the closet in its case while I'm actually using that single-shot.
I just don't want to take the fun out of my brew day and for me that's what it's about-fun.

 

[Laughing_Gnome_Invisible]

I am generally happy with my brewing process. Any upgrades I make are only toys really. I will go electric soon because buying propane is a pain. I will build a HERMS one day because I already have the pump and liked my experiments with an ad hoc HERMS I did a while back...............But yeah, I don't actually need to do that stuff. It's just toys.

I had thought that I needed to upgrade some stuff for a better consistency, but experience is curing that problem over time.

 

[pnj]

Part of the fun of having a hobby, to me, is learning and growing as I go.

 

[Bob]

A newb can certainly make a nice beer by pitching an inexpensive dry yeast, No?

Certainly. I rarely use anything other than dry yeast.

I think it best if the entire subject of yeast management is explored, however, to ensure understanding.

And please, dry blankets only.

Party pooper.

Bob

 

[ibbones]

I'm almost scared to post about AG but as a new brewer (yes, extract) I still think I did better by starting out the way I did. I am only on #4 and still have LOTS of questions about equipment and temps. This has been an interesting thread.
I guess it's like buying a car. Do I NEED GPS? Can I get it without on-star? Do I have to have leather seats with a heater?

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I guess it's like buying a car. Do I NEED GPS? Can I get it without on-star? Do I have to have leather seats with a heater?

Now you are on the right track! Just keep think and asking questions until you are comfortable with the system you plan to have. Then go out and buy that system.

 

[wilserbrewer]

I would like to see a parts list for everything a brewer needs to go AG for $150. If you can show me that, I will shut up.

two coleman 48 qt coolers, picked up curbside.............free
11 gal stainless bayou classic /w stainless burn............$23
clearance at COSTCO..HELLUVA DEAL
Propane tank at township recycle station.....................free
washing machine braid...found 4 in dad's utility closet....free
two 2000w heatsicks...............................................$65
curbside wooden bunkbed repurposed to brewstand........free
two digital stick thermometers....................................$25
corona mill...............................................................$32
tubing for mash tuns..................................................$5

Total.....................................................................$150

 

[McKBrew]

You can go AG for fairly cheap. You can spend bazillions on a brew rig. At the risk of fueling the fire that this thread has become, I'll offer you this. Quality is in the brewer, not the equipment. I'll wager money that a good brewer with equipment that he picked up out of the dumpster can brew beer every bit as good as an average brewer with a $6K Sabco system. I'd even go as far as to say that two equally good brewers could turn out an excellent beer using either ghetto or bling set-ups.

My system consists of a couple of keggles, a cooler, and some burners. It's not fancy. The burners get used for other things as well. I make good beer. With my equipment costs and the frequency at which I brew, I'm a long way from breaking even yet. I don't care, it's a hobby.

Any one considering AG brewing.....

Don't let the terminology, equipment, etc... scare you. If you can cook even the simplest stovetop meal you can make AG beer. Don't stress about yeast culturing, water chemistry, mash PH, etc... If you want to hone your process or like the scientific aspect that's cool, but I use tap water, never check the PH, and so far haven't re-used any yeast.

If extract brewing works for you, keep on doing it. I've made some and drank more damn good extract beers.

 

[Droot]

I have been watching this. Interesting.....

I started with a "Beer machine". Had NO CLUE how beer was made. Started reading books and the homebrew digest (in 1993). I realized how beer was really made and went for it. I had made one or two extract batches.

I acquired 2 1/2 kegs and a 1/4. Cut the tops out, made a manifold out of 1/4" copper tubing for the mash tun and away I went. I took a 500,000 Btu Weed burner and built a stand for it. That was in 1993. Gravity is my friend.... No pumps, no puters, just a simple brew system like me. I get lots of compliments on my beer.

I only use the best ingredients, no sugar, whole hops, and always liquid yeast with a big starter (except some experimenting with safeale).

It works for me. I have no idea what I have invested and don't care. I get total satisfaction out of brewing.

Ya get out of it what you put into it!

I have passion for beer. I can't even drink a lot, I am diabetic, but I love to brew.

Cost is no object, not that I am rich, just that I love it. Call my setup ghetto or what ever you want, it works.

I buy bulk grain and hops. I do have a grain mill and I keg because I do NOT like washing and sanitizing bottles.

Sitting here drinking the best oatmeal stout I have ever had......

If you want to try all grain, stop by my place tomorrow, I'll be brewing. I am giving 1/2 of the 10 gallon batch to a friend that has never brewed before. Trying to get him to join the asylum......

As far as 5 gal or 10 gal batches, I have always done 10 because it takes just as long to prepare and clean up for either. Lately I have been wanting more variety, so I may be doing some 5 gal batches.

Up until now I have open fermented in one of the 1/2 kegs. It always worked for me. I just bought a 7 gal conical for cheap ($239). Now I can harvest the yeast and ferment in a closed environment.

So YEAH, go for it Its how beer is REALLY Made.

"one more thing" I brewed from 1993 to about 2000, then I moved to a place with a well. I made one batch and it tasted like crap because of my water. Now its about 9 years later. I pulled the stuff out of the garage, bought some grain, hops and yeast. Made my first batch in a LONG time. Wouldn't you know it the brewery worked just as good as when I put it away. DAYM it felt good. This will be my 4 th batch in about 6 weeks. I put the 1/2 and 1/4 kegs in the back of my truck and get the water from the local village. Wish I would have done that years ago.

It was a bitch cleaning the corny kegs that had set for 9 years with a little beer in them.....



David