All brews have syrupy aftertaste. Please help?

[darylwoodman]

Hello,

So I am new to brewing and I have gone full bore and made the whole kit and kaboodle (sp)--I made a temperature controlled freezer (set at 64 +-3F), electric HLT, brew stand, all stainless parts. My first brew was extract, my second, third and forth were all-grain. All of these beers have a distinct "homebrew taste". It's almost like an caramelized, burnt syrupy taste on the tongue as an aftertaste (maybe it's a heavy honey maltiness)--it's hard to describe.

So the first extract kit was the worst-offender. My first all-grain followed as the next worst offender. My recipe had some Munich malt in it and so I figured it was that.

So I tried to brew the Stone IPA recipe posted online. This time I used 1/4 Campden tablet for the HLT (5G 'ish) water, as well as my sparge (5G 'ish) water. I added some Gypsum too (after getting my towns water profile). Brew day went well. I fermented with different yeasts. The first one--the kit, I used the dry yeast. The second brew, I used San Diego super yeast, the third and forth, I used Wyeast 1968 ESB yeast. I used two Smack packs on the IPA clone, so I doubt it's too few cells. The forth I washed the 1968 yeast, grew a starter (stir plate), and used that (I haven't tried it yet, it was only bottled two days ago).

Here is what I can tell you. At the end of primary and secondary after dry hopping, these beers were so good. Slightly sweet, complex and hoppy-very very smotth. However, after bottling for 2-3 weeks, this darn flavor appears again. It's not horrible, but its a common flavor in all my beers so far, and it makes it taste "home-brewed". As for sanitary conditions, I'm a microbiologist and a sterilization consultant. My job is sterility, and so I pretty convinced it's not an infection.

One point about the flavor only appearing after bottling. I am using previously used bottles, but I soaking them in C-brite to remove the labels. Them I rinse them and place them in the dishwasher. I allow them to go through a heat dry cycle. I remove them and store them in boxes face down and covered to prevent dust falling in them, and just prior to using them I rinse them with StarSan and pass the solution to the next bottle.

This flavor might only appear once cold? OR is it the bottling process.

As for fermentation times--I'm typically running primary for about 7-10 days (3-4 days pass krausen falling out) and when the gravity is stationary. Most of my beers have started at 1.062-1.064 'ish and gone down to about 1.011-1.013. I ferment at 64+-3F. I am using priming sugar from a homebrew store for carbonation.

Maybe the flavor is how homebrew tastes, maybe is desirable--I think it's a common flavor that stops my brews having a professional and unique taste. I'm not using the same grain, I get it fresh every time--mostly plain 2 row malt. My LHBS mills the grain. I've used 9 or so different hops in the brews so far--nothing really funky. I used Crystal Malt too--usually not too much. The stone IPA had 3/4lb 10L in a 13lb grain bill.

I'm at a loss. I'm thinking of taking some brews to my LHBS to see what they think. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

 

[cluckk]

You described it as, "It's almost like an caramelized, burnt syrupy taste on the tongue as an aftertaste (maybe it's a heavy honey maltiness)--it's hard to describe."

My first thought is to ask what you are using for a brew kettle and for a burner? How hard are you boiling, etc. Boiling way too high can burn sugars and caramelize them. With extracts it usually happens when people dump the extract into the water with the heat on.

It confuses me that you are only seeing it after bottling.

 

[grathan]

I think taking the brews to LHBS is a good idea.

Comparing cold and warm samples isn't accurate. Perhaps let one warm up to see if it tastes more like you remembered it.

10 days is kinda short time to be bottling. I've never gone under 2 weeks so I cannot say for certain.

Do you use whirfloc or irish moss at all? That can help coagulate and precipitate proteins from suspension.

Your water might be suspect. Chlorine/Chloramine? I know you used 1/4 camden tablet and I don't have any experience with them, but I would suggest trying a brew with bottled water.

 

[progmac]

you're doing a lot of things right. you might look at getting a grip on your mash ph. most water needs at least a few mL of acid depending on of course many things. you also might look at doing a simple, proven recipe from this site. something like a basic pale ale, blonde ale, etc.

your beers are attenuating as they should. i'm a little puzzled about was you are perceiving as a syrupy aftertaste...is it sweet on your lips and on the front of the taste (sugary sweet...something like woodchuck cider is a good example of this) or a sweetness/richness at the end? or is it something else?

 

[darylwoodman]

Thank you for the posts:
To answer some of the questions:

Brew kettle is all SS and I use a 50K BTU propane burner. I have it quite low, just enough for a gentle rolling boil. So far I'm quite a way off from a boil over. Most boils have been 60m, one has been 90m (it's what the recipe called for).

I did use Irish Moss in the last two batches--they have been less offensive, but none-the-less, the taste is still present.

Our town uses Chloramine Jan-Feb and April-Dec. March is purge month and they switch to Chlorine. Based on the numbers I've read. 1/4 tablet (which I think is 125mg) Potasium Metabisulphate should remove either chlorine or Chloramine.

The pH is an interesting area. SO hear is what I have been doing--it made sense to me and you can slap my wrists if I committed a cardinal sin. I measure my Mash water exactly, but I don't on the HLT sparge water. If I know that I need 6.5 gallons pre boil, I use a pre-measured SS stick that I can drop in my boil kettle. As I sparge, I just stop when the boil kettle reaches my pre-boil volume. It seemed that trying to measure what was going in made no sense to me.

I have dopped a recent (only 4 day bottled lawn mower hoppy pale ale) into the beer fridge today. I'm going to try it. I know it's too early, but the beer was great before bottling, so I figured I'd cool one down and try it early--just in case it's something with the aging in the bottle. I will also drop one by my LHSB and ask for advice.

To answer the last question, it's not sweet on your lips, it's more like a dark molasses sugar as you breath out. I'm a wine nut. I can descibe wines all day long, but I'm completely lost on describing my beer--I just know what I like (time will help me there). I wish I could be more descriptive. I will update you guys if I figure what is going on. If you have any other ideas, I'm all ears. Thanks.

 

[Biergarden]

Some of the people don't do a secondary fermentation and I didn't read that you were doing that either. I like them to help clear the beer as well as to do diacetyl rest post fermentation as well. I'm guessing here, of course, but I do it with all my beers and haven't had any significant problems.
You should do a good rolling boil, reading what you posted leaves me wondering if you're getting a good protein break or not.
Post secondary fermentation I cold crash my beer for a day or two to drop out the large protein molecules as well as the suspended yeast. That might help improve your process, if at least for clarifying your beer. You can also add plain gelatin to your beer at the time of packaging.
One day the internet will allow us to sample each others beer. And that will be a good thing.

 

[darylwoodman]

Agreed, internet brew-thru. I'll trade mark the name now...
As for the secondary, yes I have--for about a week to 9 days (on the last three brews--predominantly to dry hop). It works really well for clearing the beer. I have not tried cold-crashing yet, I do have the capacity for this since I just bought a 9 cubic foot fridge. I tried the other brew today, it was good, but the taste is still there. I'm wondering if its not a wet cardboard flavor--I'm so bad a describing this flavor. If that is the case, it could be oxidization. I'll run some to my LHBS before my next business trip. Cheers. I will overcome this and live up to my dreams.

 

[Biergarden]

Agreed, internet brew-thru. I'll trade mark the name now...
As for the secondary, yes I have--for about a week to 9 days (on the last three brews--predominantly to dry hop). It works really well for clearing the beer. I have not tried cold-crashing yet, I do have the capacity for this since I just bought a 9 cubic foot fridge. I tried the other brew today, it was good, but the taste is still there. I'm wondering if its not a wet cardboard flavor--I'm so bad a describing this flavor. If that is the case, it could be oxidization. I'll run some to my LHBS before my next business trip. Cheers. I will overcome this and live up to my dreams.

You just made me think to ask if you keeping your carboy out of the light by some means. I use a tee shirt and a closet for my glass carboy

 

[Pie_Man]

Can you post one complete recipe including your yeast pitch? It's possible you are under pitching your yeast and your beer is under attenuated giving it a thick, cloying, syrup-like character. Also, depending on the recipe, it could be oxidation. Oxidation comes across as papery or cardboard in light lagers, but can be caramel-like, sherry-like, somewhat sweet or dull in other beers depending on the grain bill.

On a side note, plenty of home brew tastes every bit as good as commercial beers

 

[darylwoodman]

So the guy at the my LHBS thinks it has a crushed-up asprin flavor. He thinks it is pointing to Chlorine and or Chloramine. I did treat the water with 1/4 campden for each 5 gallons--one for mash and one for sparge. Perhaps I need more?

I have attached one of the more recent recipes. This brew is for our upcoming street (whole pig) party.

To answer an earlier question, all my gear is SS. SS brew kettle, fittings etc. 10 gallon Igloo cooler with silicone tubing. I always get a gentle rolling boil--never been close to a boil over. Just enough to have 1/3 clear as it rolls in the boil.

I have another possibility. My chest freezer, a.k.a. my fermenetr, is fitted with a fan to maintain an even fermentation temperature. It's a large 12 inch PC fan with four blue LED's on it. I read somewhere that this would not be enough to damage the beer, but I am starting to doubt that claim. The wavelength of a blue LED peaks at 430 - 470nm--very close to the UV side of light. If this is sitting right under a bucket or better boy fermenter in a dark freezer for 18-21 days, it might be enough to damage the beer.

So far I have cut the LED's and I'm contemplating running a batch with spring water with some modifications--maybe distilled water with mods.

Still open to comments and suggestions. You guys rock--thanks.

View attachment Stone Cold Pig Yo.bsmx

 

[Axel_F15E]

Daryl, any luck figuring out what was causing the syrupy aftertaste? I'm on my second brew (both extract and quite different- IPA and a black lager) and I'm having the exact same issue and would describe it exactly as you have (syrupy or molassesy twang in the aftertaste). Any thoughts/ideas/ solutions?

 

[BigRob]

Crushed up aspirin tastes like bitter astringency, not caramelized or syrupy. Given you had the same taste in extract batches, I'd not place a bet on it being tannins from a high pH situation.

Chloramine would taste like a bandaid out of the package smells, as it's chlorophenol you'd be dealing with.

Whenever I hear the word twang, oxidation really comes to mind.

 

[Gameface]

Agreed, internet brew-thru. I'll trade mark the name now...
As for the secondary, yes I have--for about a week to 9 days (on the last three brews--predominantly to dry hop). It works really well for clearing the beer. I have not tried cold-crashing yet, I do have the capacity for this since I just bought a 9 cubic foot fridge. I tried the other brew today, it was good, but the taste is still there. I'm wondering if its not a wet cardboard flavor--I'm so bad a describing this flavor. If that is the case, it could be oxidization. I'll run some to my LHBS before my next business trip. Cheers. I will overcome this and live up to my dreams.

Secondaries don't really do anything for clarity.

Over time the solids drop out of the solution. They don't drop out more slowly because there is already a layer of solids at the bottom. It has no effect.

What using a secondary does do it exposes your beer to additional O2 and redistributes the solids throughout the entire volume, actually making it take longer to clear.

Based on everything you've written I'd say bump up your campden a little (1/2 tab for strike, the other half for sparge) and be extremely diligent about O2 exposure and see what you get.

Do you open your fermenter often? Based on your profession I wonder if you mess with your beer, monitoring and/or testing it, too often.

Best of luck!

 

[madscientist451]

I agree with your idea of running a batch with bottled spring water.
I'd also go with making much smaller batches until you get your taste problem
figured out, maybe even one gallon.

 

[singybrue]

What are your mash Temps? Is your mash thermometer accurate?
I realize this doesn't apply to your extract batch, but may be something to look at.

 

[grittanomyces]

I have another possibility. My chest freezer, a.k.a. my fermenetr, is fitted with a fan to maintain an even fermentation temperature. It's a large 12 inch PC fan with four blue LED's on it. I read somewhere that this would not be enough to damage the beer, but I am starting to doubt that claim. The wavelength of a blue LED peaks at 430 - 470nm--very close to the UV side of light. If this is sitting right under a bucket or better boy fermenter in a dark freezer for 18-21 days, it might be enough to damage the beer.

So you didn't answer the previous question, are you covering your carboy with a teeshirt or something?

I don't know much about light exposure prior to bottling, so maybe someone else can say better if it could produce these kind of off-flavors, since I've always understood light to be more responsible for skunking than a sweet "twang".

As previous posters also asked, what about oxidation? How careful are you to prevent splashing post-fermentation? Maybe try forgoing secondary (as many posters here recommend anyway) and see if that doesn't solve it.

I'll be following this thread, as I know other people who now do all-grain and still have this issue that I've seen attributed to "extract twang". Clearly that cannot be the problem then.

 

[Yreval]

So you didn't answer the previous question, are you covering your carboy with a teeshirt or something?

I don't know much about light exposure prior to bottling, so maybe someone else can say better if it could produce these kind of off-flavors, since I've always understood light to be more responsible for skunking than a sweet "twang".

As previous posters also asked, what about oxidation? How careful are you to prevent splashing post-fermentation? Maybe try forgoing secondary (as many posters here recommend anyway) and see if that doesn't solve it.

I'll be following this thread, as I know other people who now do all-grain and still have this issue that I've seen attributed to "extract twang". Clearly that cannot be the problem then.

It sounds like his fermenters are inside of a chest freezer for temperature control. Their only light exposure is from blue leds on the fan, which he's disconnecting just in case.

 

[KeninMN]

I've had the same issue with my last 4 brews, although the intensity has decreased with each successive brew. As the OP stated, at bottling I did not detect this odd flavor; in fact I was so excited at how great they all tasted, but after priming, bottling and carbonating the off flavor manifested. At first I though it might be the yeast strain (Wyeast 1335, used on Brews 1 & 2, a Surly Furious extract kit and a Dawson's Multigrain Red extract kit, both from Northern Brewer.) Then it showed up in a third brew, a Dry Dock SS Minnow Mild extract kit from Northern Brewer, which used a different strain of yeast (Safale S-04) and then finally a fourth brew, a Chocolate Milk Stout extract kit from Northern Brewer, which used Wyeast 1332. For all brews a large starter was made, except for the dry yeast, which was rehydrated per manufacturers instructions, the wort was quickly cooled with a clean, sanitized copper immersion chiller, and the yeast was pitched at between 66 - 68 degrees F. Fermentation temperature was controlled via a swamp cooler at an average temperature of 66 - 68 degrees F during active fermentation in a closed, dark room. Distilled water was used for all brews. Bottles were rigorously cleaned using hot PBW solution and a bottle brush, followed by submersion in Star San for at least two minutes immediately prior to bottling. The first three brews used plain white table sugar for priming, with the fourth brew using corn sugar. The Surly, the first of my brews to manifest this off flavor, was horrible to the point where I will probably dump the remaining twelve bottles. It starts out bad and gets worse as it warms. In the Dawson's Red the flavor was much less pronounced. It is still drinkable, but nothing I'd be willing to share with anyone. The off flavor is consistent in strength and flavor from beginning to end. In the SS Minnow the off flavor is very much less pronounced, and disappears as the brew warms. And finally, in the Chocolate Milk Stout the flavor is barely perceptible at the beginning and fades fast. I describe the flavor as sickly, artificial sweetener sweetish (as opposed to sugar sweetness) and ester-like, almost fruity, but obnoxious. Two changes I made prior to the last (and least pronounced) batch was to soak the racking cane and hose in hot PBW solution for 24 hours prior to bottling and switching from table to corn sugar. The fact that if could be so much less pronounced after those changes may or may not correlate with the changes. I'm at a loss as to what could be causing it. One more change I think I'll make prior to bottling my next batch is to replace the racking cane hose completely. Any advice or explanation will be most appreciated.

 

[KeninMN]

Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

 

[grathan]

Do you brew with the lid on the kettle, do you get a fairly good rolling boil?


Your fairly cautious about oxidation? Like when transferring to bottling bucket your not splashing or stirring the heck out of it?

 

[KeninMN]

Do you brew with the lid on the kettle, do you get a fairly good rolling boil?


Your fairly cautious about oxidation? Like when transferring to bottling bucket your not splashing or stirring the heck out of it?

I did not boil with a lid on the kettle, and was able to achieve a strong, rolling boil on my electric stove top. (They were also partial-boil extract beers, so I doubt it could be DMS-related.) I also fastidiously minimize any possibility of oxygenation, with any that might occur being easily handled by the yeast during bottle conditioning.

That said, I have an update. I was just about to dump the remaining twelve bottles of Furious, when I fortuitously decided to give it one last try. What a transformation! Not quite Jesus turning water into wine, but up there. Not only is the sickening, syrupy, artificial sweetener taste gone, it actually now tastes like Furious! So note to self: The next time I make Furious (and there now will be a next time, though it will be the all-grain version,) leave it undisturbed in the bottle for two months before even trying it. I also sampled the Chocolate Milk stout again, and can no longer detect the off flavor. Next up are the Red and the SS Minnow...

 

[darylwoodman]

Sorry guys, I really dropped the ball on this one.

Things have progressed at a furious rate, and I did finally get rid of the nasty flavor, although I changed too many variables at once to know what really did the trick. These changes combined have allowed me to brew some incredible beers without off-flavors, or any "homebrew" taste.

1) I snipped the LED's on my fan in the fermenter--no light at any wavelength.
2) I increased my Campden tablet concentration. I did some rough math and came up with 1/2 tablet for five gallons, which is twice the supposed amount of 1 tablet treat per 20 Gallons. Keep in mind that the mg's of ingredients are not all equal.
3) I stopped agitating my wort chiller like a nutter to drop my wort temp. quickly. I may have been adding a little O2 here.
4) I'm kegging too, although I don't think that has anything to do with it.

I will be posting my brew setup on the forum soon too. I have a website too where I will post DIY builds that have helped me solve problems, OR provide answer to questions that I had i.e. How quickly can a 110v element heat 6 gallons of water, and to what MAX temp, OR what is the best way to grow yeast from a slant to a pitchable volume? As a scientist, I am interested in the least burdensome way to achieve a specific goal. Sorry that I fell off the face of the earth--I've been building the brewery. Cheers - www.acapellabrewing.com