Ale: Check, Wheat: Check, Lager: Uh Oh

[JokerOnJack]

My girlfriend was gracious enough to buy me a brew kit for my birthday back in May.

With that kit she bought me a brew kit for summer ale.

The summer ale turned out to be a great first brew. Had enough ingredients to screw up but wasn't too tempermental to destroy. Despite a couple mistakes including steeping my malt at too high a tempurature. Followed by no swamp cooling during fermentation nor any tempurature control what-so-ever besides a room tempurature of 67º, added with absolutley no secondary fermentation, my home brewed Summer Ale was still the hit of a couple different parties.

After the summer ale I picked up a weisenbier kit. Learning a good amount from my first brew, I set out to correct as much as I could for this next batch. I was slightly dissapointed with the kit as all it was was malt extract and hops. Well being it was less than what I was going for, I picked up some spice packs to customize the flavor. I chose to add in sweet orange peel with my bittering hops, and tangerine peel with my aroma hops. Not only did I keep my fermenter at 64º but I went with a secondary fermentation. I was rewarded with an wonderful aroma during bottling, 50 bottles of beer, and a great sense of accomplishment. I even snuck in a pre-taste of the wort out of curiosity. Able to get past the watery texture and yeasty flavor, behind it all I was able to sense a light wheaty flavor with a citrus afternote. That taste test has given me a great excitement to try this beer after carbonation.

Now we come to my first lager. Oktoberfest. Maybe I made a mistake picking a lager without the proper means of cooling, but ill find out in 6 weeks. I took my preperation carefully, and brewed my lager with as much precision I could muster. I was able to steep my malt at exactly 159ºF, and hydrate my yeast at 30ºC. I followed the directions to a "T" until I pitched my yeast.
I have no wort chiller I have no means to cool my wort besides an ice bath. Caught between trying to cool my wort off as quickly as possible while attempting to reach an acceptable pitching tempurature. I felt after 35 minutes time wasn't playing well with me... so I reached 78º in my wort and decided to transfer to my fermentor and pitch my yeast, I didn't feel comfortable leaving my wort in that open pot and ice bath much longer. So far it has been 13 hours and I have been able to get my fermentor down to 64º. I'm slightly worried I may have pitched my yeast too high and killed too much of it off, but I'm going to give my fermentor few days before I let that thought strangle me. Here's to hoping I can bring that fermenter down to 55º today and hold it for the next couple weeks.

Wish me luck.

 

[mrphillips]

Sounds like a pretty good plan. Pitching your yeast at 78 degrees will be fine, and you shouldn't have to worry about much, in any, die off. Don't worry if you don't see/hear bubbles. My first batch put out ZERO visible signs of fermentation, and turned out fine at 5.2%.

Happy Brewing! Wish I had the means to lager a beer

 

[JokerOnJack]

Thanks man. Its good to hear that. All I have is a cooler and somw bottles of water I froze. When it comes to the lagering step, a friend of mine is letting me barrow his fridge because its empty.

 

[k_mcarthur]

Pitching lager yeast, or any yeast for that matter, at 78° is not a good idea. Some manufactures suggest pitching warm until you see signs of fermentation, but once their are signs the yeast is already making off flavors. Then it could take a day to drop temperature to the ideal 50-55°, making even more off flavors. That may not be a problem in a complex stout, but in a lager it can be. Better advice: keep chilling until you hit below ideal fermenting temperature, chill yeast to same temp, then pitch and allow to rise to ideal temp. I can't get my lagers below 70° with my wort chiller, so I leave it in my fermenting chamber overnight and pitch in the morning, no problem as long as everything is sanitized well.

 

[JokerOnJack]

Uh oh... am I in limbo until I see it start to ferment? Or is this thing done for before the first day?

 

[twistr25]

Uh oh... am I in limbo until I see it start to ferment? Or is this thing done for before the first day?

k_mcarthur is scaring you a little more than necessary. I have been unable to get any of my beers under 78 before pitching. All of them have been good to great and one even placed at a competition. If you pitch and are able to get it into a swamp cooler or other temp controlled environment soon after, it will likely be just fine. For a lager, it does need to get down into the low 50s though, which is a big departure from typical ales, but it can be done. The first few days are the most important, but you'll likely be ok if the first few hours are on the upper side of the yeast range.

Bottom line, it's not a deal breaker, but it is best to get it as low as possible first if you can.

 

[k_mcarthur]

Not necessarily, just get it to 55° asap. No worries killing any yeast at 78°, they actually like that temp just doesn't make good beer. I've never tried a lager with a swamp cooler but I bet by the end of two weeks you will be looking for a freezer and temp control. After two weeks bring temp up to room temp for a few days to try metabolize any off flavors. Then transfer to 5gal carboy and crash temp to lager for at least 5 weeks. It will still be good beer I bet, but just not ideal yeast handling. Next time it will be better if you don't pitch until correct temps are reached.

 

[JokerOnJack]

Not necessarily, just get it to 55° asap. No worries killing any yeast at 78°, they actually like that temp just doesn't make good beer. I've never tried a lager with a swamp cooler but I bet by the end of two weeks you will be looking for a freezer and temp control. After two weeks bring temp up to room temp for a few days to try metabolize any off flavors. Then transfer to 5gal carboy and crash temp to lager for at least 5 weeks. It will still be good beer I bet, but just not ideal yeast handling. Next time it will be better if you don't pitch until correct temps are reached.

My goal is to transfer this to the secondary on Labor day weekend. Keeping them both in a bath of ice water to reach 55°.
My plan, after discussing with my local brew shop about the lagering part (this is a kit Oktoberfest btw)
Primary Fermentation (Swamp Cooled 55°) - 2 Weeks
Secondary Fermentation (Carboy, Swamp Cooled 55°) - 1 Week.
Bottle for Lagering to save room (22oz bottles, refrigerated) - 3 weeks
Transfer to basement temp - 2 weeks
Bottle opening Mid October

In your best opinion, how should I change up this plan?

 

[k_mcarthur]

Granted there are many ways to skin a cat when it comes to brewing, and I have never personally done a "secondary fermentation" per se for a lager nor have I lagered in bottles. Not to say it wouldn't work, and might be a good experiment to try down the road, but I wouldn't suggest it for your first lager since they are a lot of work. My thoughts are as follows:

A d-rest is important if there is a chance there are off flavors present. I personally do one for all my lagers, cheap insurance. Before you hit final gravity warm up to room temp for three days, the yeast will finish fermenting and metabolize off flavors.

The point of a lager is to in the end get really clean clear beer. I believe that it would make more sense to lager a whole 5gal carboy as close to but not freezing as possible. Over the next weeks the yeast, proteins, and chill haze will fall out of suspension. You want only clean clear beer to go into your glass or bottles.

Having said all of that, that's my thoughts on "ideal" lagering. Everybody's equipment and space is different, we all have to find what works best for us.

 

[JokerOnJack]

Okay. So I could, if I have the room, do my fermentation, being it up to room temp for a day or two, then transfer to my carboy and begin the lagering stage? Cutting the week of secondary fermentation out and keeping it from bottling until after the lagering, correct?

 

[twistr25]

Okay. So I could, if I have the room, do my fermentation, being it up to room temp for a day or two, then transfer to my carboy and begin the lagering stage? Cutting the week of secondary fermentation out and keeping it from bottling until after the lagering, correct?

Yes, in this case, lagering is effectively your secondary stage. I have a kolsch I'll be racking tonight and lagering for the next 4 weeks. It did two weeks at ~60F and will be lagering around 34F for 4, then moving to the keg for me.

 

[JokerOnJack]

So what are the chances I'm screwed? Its been 48 hours and I see no activity. I have the fermenter down between 51º-55º. There is no activity from the air lock and no foam on to of the beer.

 

[k_mcarthur]

So what are the chances I'm screwed? Its been 48 hours and I see no activity. I have the fermenter down between 51º-55º. There is no activity from the air lock and no foam on to of the beer.

Your fine, lagers take a lot of patience. Now that your at the right temp, leave it there no matter what you see! Check the gravity, would be interested to know.

 

[JokerOnJack]

99% sure somethings wrong. Gravity hasn't moved a bit. 72 hours. 1.053

 

[k_mcarthur]

My lagers take a few days to get going and I make 2L starters of very active yeast, what kind of yeast and how did you prepare it? I looked back and I don't think you said. If it was dry just sprinkled on top or a liquid pack dumped right in it could take almost a week to get going.

 

[JokerOnJack]

Actually your right. I had dried lager yeast that came with the malt extract kit. Boiled 1 cup water. Let cool to 30ºC (package said temp was good starting point, did I kill it?) And rehydrated the yeast for a couple hours. And pitched the 8oz of fluid.

 

[k_mcarthur]

I doubt you killed it at that temp, but yeast doesn't really start multiplying until it's settled into a temperature whether if it's hot or cold. Over 72 hours its gone from 86° down to 55°. When you rehydrated could you see any action in the water? The best advice I can offer is to relax, have a homebrew, and if it's still not doing anything by day 5 then I would repitch.

 

[JokerOnJack]

I appreciate all the input. I really do. Would it be a bad idea to just add a second pitch tomorrow?

 

[whoaru99]

The yeast could be shocked and just wondering what to do. I don't see anything that should have killed the yeast.

As far as the lager itself goes, I fermented mine until the OG was 75% of the way to FG, then at that point I raised the temp to the low/mid 60s for the diacetyl rest.

After it finished at the raised temp, I racked to secondary/carboy and lagered in the mid 30s for about 9 weeks whereupon I primed it and bottled.

I have seen some of the long time experienced folks here say that bottle lagering works OK too. Ferment it out to about 75% if you can, then warm to diacetyl rest until it hits FG, then prime and bottle it, allow to carb at ~70, then lager it in the bottles for whatever time is called for. A rule of thumb I've seen is one week for every 8 points of OG.

By no means am I an accomplished brewer, but of the 6 or 7 beers I've done so far, the one and only lager (Maibock, my GF unknowingly bought me for a present, complete with the correct yeast) has been the best overall I think.

 

[JokerOnJack]

It's alive!!!!

 

[progmac]

an extended diacetyl rest (5-7 days) might be in order since it took so long to get going.

 

[JokerOnJack]

Damn delays. Haha. Oh well. Is what it is

 

[JokerOnJack]

So uhh. How long after it starts fermenting do I switch it to warmer temp for rest. After its done, or while its still going? It slowed down its fermentation alot already.

 

[progmac]

So uhh. How long after it starts fermenting do I switch it to warmer temp for rest. After its done, or while its still going? It slowed down its fermentation alot already.

if you take a hydrometer reading, it should be about 75% of the way to FG. visually, this is approximately when the krausen starts to fall. however, late is better than never.