Aging in keg - Brulosophy

[Machinedrum]

I just saw today that Brulosophy put out the results of another experiment about warm aging a barleywine vs cold aging it for 5 months. The results are here: http://brulosophy.com/2019/04/15/impact-of-storage-temperature-on-high-og-beer-exbeeriment-results/

I actually just brewed a barleywine, and was planning on aging it in my basement on oak cubes for about 10 months, because I didn't want to tie up space in the kegerator for that amount of time. Based on the results from this experiment, maybe that's not a great idea. Does anyone here have any experience with doing a longer age in a purged keg at basement temps, and if so, what were the results? Did you notice any off flavors or oxidation?

Just to clarify, I used CO2 to push star san into an empty keg, and used CO2 to empty that keg of star san, and then did a closed transfer of my barleywine from the car boy to the keg to try to minimize oxidation.

 

[eric19312]

I read the post and looking at the picture noted they also appear to have done a closed transfer into a purged keg. There beers were objectively different per the triangle test and the unblinded taster (the brewer) felt he detected oxidation. My guess is the oxidation came from force carbing since bottled CO2 is not actually oxygen free although there could of been some other failure.

One interesting result is the division between the tasters as for preference. It is possible that they were able to perceive this was a barley wine and that many tasters prefer a bit of oxidised flavor in this beer style. My guess is Jake is more of a fresh beer be they lagers or ales guy so found oxidation flavors objectionable.

I had same problem with my 100th batch. Big barley wine. Wanted to age it carbed in keg and then fill into bottles with beer gun later for even longer storage. 6 months in my garage and I had my first or second dumper. It was just not good and not salvageable. If I were to do this again I would carbonate naturally either by letting beer reach final gravity, transfering then adding priming sugar or by transfering at near final gravity and spunding. I would also aim to store it cool. I would not bottle from kegs even with a good beer gun. If bottling I would do a good cold crash under CO2 pressure to minimize oxygen pickup and then re ferment in bottles with a good bottle conditioning yeast. I don't think you can beat a well bottle conditioned beer for long term aging.

 

[Vale71]

Chemical reactions progress faster at higher temperatures than they do at lower temperatures, who would have thought? We really needed Brülosophy to find that out or we would have all been clueless otherwise...

Sarcasm aside, they left the beer for over two weeks in unpressurized brew buckets, the beer was surely loaded with oxygen long before they force carbed it. A more interesting experiment would be to compare properly handled beers vis-a-vis O2 matured at different temps but I think that would be way beyond the simple means of this guy. Which raises the question: why does he even bother??

 

[day_trippr]

HDPE is only slightly less oxygen-permeable than a sieve.
Perhaps that site should conduct an educational experiment leaving beer in buckets vs kegs vs glass for a few weeks...

 

[Jag75]

I'm lagering an Oktoberfest until Sept. 21
Im a little leary having a beer in a keg for 5 months . From what I've read around here it is totally ok to do that. Im hoping that first pour isnt gonna be a big disappointment.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

....they are SS brew buckets not sure why that point was even brought up?

 

[Gnomebrewer]

Perhaps that site should conduct an educational experiment leaving beer in buckets vs kegs vs glass for a few weeks...

http://brulosophy.com/2017/10/23/fe...-vs-plastic-speidel-tank-exbeeriment-results/

http://brulosophy.com/2018/01/01/fe...-vs-plastic-speidel-tank-exbeeriment-results/

My own split batches (HDPE bucket vs fermenting in kegs) show completely different results - the keg fermented beer is much fresher and cleaner tasting. Interestingly, friends who drink my beer are split with which they prefer - it seems many prefer the oxidised flavours. I dabbled in LoDo for a while and preferred the non-LoDo versions (there was a distinct difference in the beers), so apparently I prefer oxidised flavours from the hot side but non-oxidised on the cold side!

 

[Machinedrum]

Maybe I misunderstood the brew bucket part of it. So if I keep a big beer to age in a pressurized keg in the basement for 10 months, do you think it will be fine, or could some damage happen to the beer from being not totally chilled for that long of time?

 

[Yooper]

....they are SS brew buckets not sure why that point was even brought up?

Because of the wide headspace? Oxidation can happen before kegging, and worsen with time, especially at warm temperatures.

 

[MakeDankBeer]

Because of the wide headspace? Oxidation can happen before kegging, and worsen with time, especially at warm temperatures.

What oxygen? the left over from when its fermented? Headspace is relative to the volume in it, which will vary. Do you think you have more headspace in a ssbrewbucket then say a conical?

 

[Yooper]

What oxygen? the left over from when its fermented? Headspace is relative to the volume in it, which will vary. Do you think you have more headspace in a ssbrewbucket then say a conical?

If it's not pressurized, then definitely.
The ideal gas law pertains always (can't deny physics). If it was 100% c02 in the headspace after fermentation, the bucket would collapse from the vacuum. Brite tanks and conicals that have co2 ports are built differently. Winemakers use carboys with a very tiny headspace (and sulfites) to avoid oxygen contact in secondaries.

 

[Vale71]

What oxygen? the left over from when its fermented? Headspace is relative to the volume in it, which will vary. Do you think you have more headspace in a ssbrewbucket then say a conical?

More like the one that will start seeping in once fermentation is over. Unpressurized vessels such as these are anything but airtight. Compared to a unitank their seal is a joke. If you don't transfer to a properly sealed vessel such as a keg in a timely fashion you will experience increased dissolved oxygen levels in your beer and it's only inevitable that this will cause more oxidative damage the longer and the warmer you store your beer.
For such a test to be feasible and meaningful you need the proper equipment to ensure levels of dissolved oxygen that satisfy stringent industry standards, otherwise any extended aging you subject your beer to will only bring forward oxydation flavors that will mask any other effects the extended aging might have had. Since that is clearl beyond this guy's simple means this begs for me the question: why does he bother? I'm afraid the answer to that question might be found at the bottom of every web page on his site...

 

[Yooper]

why does he bother? I'm afraid the answer to that question might be found at the bottom of every web page on his site...

I agree, of course- except for this part. They are good guys, not scientists, who are having fun doing exbeeriments the way that many homebrewers do/would. The thing with this one is that the oxidative damage would happen before the transfer, and it would be exacerbated by the high temperature aging. So it's a flawed experiment from that point, but I like these guys because they are always making homebrewers think.

I usually read their results, and it gives me something to think about like in this case.

 

[Jag75]

So as long as a keg is under co2 you can lager for long periods of time without the fear of oxidation?

 

[Vale71]

You definitely cannot have oxidation without available oxygen but other processes would of course happen that do not involve oxygen in any way.

 

[Vale71]

The thing with this one is that the oxidative damage would happen before the transfer, and it would be exacerbated by the high temperature aging.

Yes and no. Oxygen ingress will happen before transfer (or possibly during transfer as well as it's not clear from just a picture if they performed some sort of closed transfer at all) but oxidative damage will progress all through aging. In that regard the experiment is not flawed per se, it's just pointless as it's a well established scientific fact that factors influencing the rate at which this will happen are most and foremost temperature and concentration. There really is no need for further study, much less with such simple and crude means and methods.

 

[Yooper]

So as long as a keg is under co2 you can lager for long periods of time without the fear of oxidation?

No, because it's not that it's the storage that is the issue (although certainly it's important and makes a difference). It's HOW the beer was treated before it was packaged that matters.

Oxidation can happen even in the best cared-for beers- years old beers and wines all suffer from oxidation or microoxidation to some degree. Some of those changes are nice- like the sherry notes in a barley wine- but that is usually not desirable.

Oxidation will get more noticeable and worsen with time, and also warmer temperatures accelerate aging so it will happen faster at warmer temperature.

 

[Yooper]

Yes and no. Oxygen ingress will happen before transfer (or possibly during transfer as well as it's not clear from just a picture if they performed some sort of closed transfer at all) but oxidative damage will progress all through aging. In that regard the experiment is not flawed per se, it's just pointless as it's a well established scientific fact that factors influencing the rate at which this will happen are most and foremost temperature and concentration. There really is no need for further study, much less with such simple and crude means and methods.

I'm pretty sure that's what I said.............

 

[Jag75]

I'm lagering at 36 - 38 degrees not at room temp . Shouldn't that make a difference in being able to Lager till end of September?

 

[Vale71]

I'm lagering at 36 - 38 degrees not at room temp . Shouldn't that make a difference in being able to Lager till end of September?

That will slow down the process but there's no telling whether that will be enough without kowing how much dissolved oxygen your beer has accumulated.

 

[Jag75]

Man I tell you if I tap this in Sept and it taste like crap I'm gonna be infuriated. It's so hard for me not to drink it now . I will be big time bummed out . How do people lager from March all the way to Oktoberfest then ?

I fermented at 54 for about 1 week or so . I hit 75 % of fermentation. I bumped it up 4 degrees a day until I hit 66. Let it go for 3 days for diacetyl rest. Then I dropped a few degrees a day until I hit 38. I closed transfer to a keg and hooked it up to co2 . Purged a handful of times and let it sit @12psi

 

[ba-brewer]

Man I tell you if I tap this in Sept and it taste like crap I'm gonna be infuriated. It's so hard for me not to drink it now . I will be big time bummed out . How do people lager from March all the way to Oktoberfest then ?

I fermented at 54 for about 1 week or so . I hit 75 % of fermentation. I bumped it up 4 degrees a day until I hit 66. Let it go for 3 days for diacetyl rest. Then I dropped a few degrees a day until I hit 38. I closed transfer to a keg and hooked it up to co2 . Purged a handful of times and let it sit @12psi

Sounds like you did the right things, keep your beer cold it should be fine. If you are really worried sample it now and periodically along the way and pound it if you think it is turning.

My marzens are some of the quickest lagers to clean up and be ready to drink. I have done a couple extended lagers on them and don't think it made a difference. I will brew one mid summer for fall drinking.

 

[TechFanMD]

HDPE is only slightly less oxygen-permeable than a sieve.
Perhaps that site should conduct an educational experiment leaving beer in buckets vs kegs vs glass for a few weeks...

The vessels were SS Brewtech stainless steel brew buckets. (and they did do the experiment you suggest, but doesn't apply here).

 

[Machinedrum]

Ok so I'm still confused. If I did a closed transfer to a keg that I purged by pushing out star san with CO2, do you think it's possible to keep it in the basement at lets say 65º for 10 months without it negatively effecting the beer? The beer went from primary in my carboy right into the keg, so I tried my best to keep oxygen exposure to a minimum. I guess I could always just roll the dice and if I have to dump it then I have my answer, just trying to avoid that.

 

[Iseneye]

Simple - if you keep it at room temperature the staling effect will happen quicker than if left at serving temp. You can do your best to keep oxygen out during transfer but you won't be perfect. There is a reason the big boy brewers are fastidious with cold side handling.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

I guess I could always just roll the dice and if I have to dump it then I have my answer, just trying to avoid that.

Even if you get a bit of staling (which should be minimal if your closed transfer is good) it doesn't make beer 'dumpers', they just lose a bit of their freshness. You might even like some oxidised flavours.

 

[Spyderbyte07]

Even if you get a bit of staling (which should be minimal if your closed transfer is good) it doesn't make beer 'dumpers', they just lose a bit of their freshness. You might even like some oxidised flavours.

Agreed. I brewed a barley wine in July 2015, let it sit in primary for ~9 months and siphoned (without CO2 pressure) through the liquid post into a purged keg. I then proceeded to take it on and off tap over the years so it spent most of its life at basement temperature. Even with these less than ideal steps, by my tastes it continued to improve for the first ~two years and it wasn't until last fall that I began to notice the less desirable flavors from heavier oxidation.

 

[James86]

I wonder how much of a difference priming the keg with sugar and naturally carbing would make. The re fermentation of the yeast would use up a decent percentage of the dissolved O2 and be in a closed environment.