Aging in a Better Bottle

[muse435]

I have 3 gallons of cider in a 3 gallon better bottle bubbling away. I only have one 3 gallon carboy, the rest are bigger. After a few weeks I would like to rack off of the dead yeast but I am trying to figure out how. I do not have the room to buy a second three gallon carboy. I was thinking of racking to a five gallon BB, clean my 3 gal BB, then rack back to the 3 gal BB.

Is this a good idea, or should I just get 3 one gal jugs and rack into them?

 

[Nateo]

I've aged about 3gal in a 5gal better bottle for about 6 weeks without any issues. I wouldn't age it for 6 months in one.

 

[Clann]

I rack to a bottling bucket, clean my BB or carboy and rack back as my carboys tend to keep some kind of wine or aging beer in them

 

[RobWalker]

I do that all the time too, it works fine. Never had an infection from it, home brew really isn't THAT prone to infection.

My 1 gal Apfelwein sat on the yeast cake for 6 months because I couldn't be arsed to rack it, and then one night we decided to syphon into a new demi-john and just pour it from the carboy to drink. These things are all fine imo, you're not a conneissur, you're a home brewer!

Not sure if the material of your carboy contributes to the ageing process though!

 

[Nateo]

Not sure if the material of your carboy contributes to the ageing process though!

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

There is a chart with regards to O2 permeability with different materials on that website. It's pretty interesting. Plastic is much more permeable than glass, but several months in plastic is the same as a year in glass. Lots of people age beers for many years in glass, but freak out if you leave beer in plastic for a couple months.

 

[muse435]

http://www2.parc.com/emdl/members/apte/flemishredale.shtml

There is a chart with regards to O2 permeability with different materials on that website. It's pretty interesting. Plastic is much more permeable than glass, but several months in plastic is the same as a year in glass. Lots of people age beers for many years in glass, but freak out if you leave beer in plastic for a couple months.

I started to read some of that article and plan on reading more later. The problem I see is it does not name Better bottles directly. Since there are several diferent PET bottles it is hard to say that they are made to the same standards.

According to the people at Better Bottle

Permeability — Of all the types of plastics that can be made into bottles and carboys, only special types of polyethylene terephthalate (PET) have been successfully used to make containers for carbonated beverages. The reason is simple – only these special types of PET are sufficiently impermeable to keep carbonation (i.e., carbon dioxide) in and the oxygen out. BetterBottle fermentation carboys are made of a unique, scientifically tested PET and they are specially manufactured so that oxygen permeability is negligible. Use the Technical tab at the top of page to access a discussion of Permeability.

BetterBottle PET carboys are slightly more permeable than glass; however, it would be a mistake to assume that using a glass carboy will guarantee superior results. It is important to think of a glass carboy as just one part of complete fermenting system that also includes a stopper, an air lock, hose, a racking cane etc. In typical use, more oxygen diffuses through, or leaks by, stoppers and liquid-filled air locks than diffuses through the walls of BetterBottle carboys and fittings. Moreover, every time a stopper is removed from a glass carboy in order to perform a test or to make an adjustment, a considerable amount of oxygen enters the wine or beer. Air contains about 20% oxygen. If the head space (ullage) in a carboy is just 200 ml, 40 ml of oxygen will enter every time the stopper is removed. In fact, much more oxygen will enter. Oxygen reacts very rapidly with wine and beer, which essentially sucks up oxygen. Racking from an open glass carboy with a siphon tube or pump will also expose the wine or beer to a large amount of oxygen. In actual practice, BetterBottle carboys are equal to, or better than, glass carboys, because BetterBottle fittings make it convenient to control the extent to which wine or beer are exposed to oxygen.

 

[RobWalker]

Does that mean the ageing process would be quicker in a better bottle than in glass? I aged my Apfelwein for 6 months in glass and it tasted great, but this makes me wonder if it should have been aged longer, as Edwort does his in plastic I think...

 

[wildman]

No it will not age quicker it will just oxidize quicker. And while the better bottle co can say whatever they want the truth is its still plastic, I think there full of crap just for their explanation about removing the stopper and trying to tell me all the air is replaced. It's wrong and they know it. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and in the absence of major temperature differences (ie the carbon being warmer than room temperature) or air movment in the room the carbon dioxide stratifies and simple air pressure keeps the co2 in the carboy unless you keep it open for a long period of time. If there going to lie to me about this I can pretty much assume that their "special plastic" is a load of crap as well. they fine for short term but I would never leave it in there for 6 months.

 

[muse435]

No it will not age quicker it will just oxidize quicker. And while the better bottle co can say whatever they want the truth is its still plastic, I think there full of crap just for their explanation about removing the stopper and trying to tell me all the air is replaced. It's wrong and they know it. Carbon dioxide is heavier than air and in the absence of major temperature differences (ie the carbon being warmer than room temperature) or air movment in the room the carbon dioxide stratifies and simple air pressure keeps the co2 in the carboy unless you keep it open for a long period of time. If there going to lie to me about this I can pretty much assume that their "special plastic" is a load of crap as well. they fine for short term but I would never leave it in there for 6 months.

Diffusion would suggest that stratification would not occur on such a small volume of air. changing the volume of the air by inserting something into the carboy or removing something will cause air movement. If I am not adding or removing something, I don't remove the airlock. My back ground gives me no understanding of the permeability of plastic. Just because the old style of plastic was extremely permeable does not mean BBs are. I have no reason to doubt the company. IMHO they work well and I have had no problem with them. All I was asking was about using a extra bucket for racking. I found my answer elsewhere.

 

[RobWalker]

Too much science in here
I'm gonna bottle a cider in a glass bottle and a plastic bottle, and see which tastes more "aged" after a fortnight or so. Just for a little clarification.

 

[CidahMastah]

I would say that if you want to play it safe, work towards glass. My understanding is that the barrier in the better bottles is better than non barrier platic, but still somewhat gas permeable. Likely it won't affect you.

I would say if you are using a BB age it to 6 months then bottle it and let it continue to condition. I would say from my personal experience that there is no huge bulk aging benefit that I have noticed after 6 months vs. bottle conditioning. i.e you can leave it in the smaller bottles for 6mos a year or whatever with good results.

That said, I still have two demi-John's with cider hanging out in them, and 4 kegs with cider in the, from last october. Why? because I ahve been too busy to rack them and I know they are ok sitting there just the way they are. Also, I like to encourage natural malolactic fermentation for a more stable cider with improved mouth feel/complexity. For me glass is about convenience.... I don't have to touch the demijohn's until I want to. But racking them after 6 weeks to remove a good amount of the initial lees is a PITA

short version is, you are probably fine. I tend to take caution when I am making cider because:
1. if it oxidizes, it is crap cider
2. takes a long time to age
3. can't easily replace the base juice. I can't go back and easily press apples in the winter or summer, so pressing is a fall event, and that is all I get for cider making for the year.