Aggressive Boil ?'s

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copper2hopper

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So my question is....is an aggressive boil throughout the whole boil important? My buddy and I brewed today and I was a little worried about the aggressiveness of the boil we had going on. To a point where we really didn't know when to start the 60 minute boil timer because it literally seemed like we had what appeared to be hot break throughout the whole time and this thing was boiling like crazy. We were going off of some research he did that said it was good to do this to boil off all those proteins that are supposed to during the hot break. So is there such thing as a TOO aggressive of a boil?
 
I've read that a low boil may reduce hop isomerization. I think you want a good, solid boil. But - I don't think it has to be crazy. I try to get a good boil going up front, add my hop additions, then turn it down to a high-medium boil for most of the boil.

Personally, I'd worry more about too heavy of a boil impacting my ending volume and OG than what it will do the wort.

I try to keep it as close as I can brew to brew so I can dial in my system. If you're ending up with too little wort after the boil, you might want to dial it back a little.
 
I've always heard a gallon per hour. But I am sure it has lots to do with boil kettle size.

I always want vigorous movement in my wort, but not so vigorous stuff is spitting out of the pot.
 
Our was really vigorous. It almost seemed like it was just producing air foam bubbles that looked like hot break throughout the whole thing. Has anyone had that before and is that too vigorous?
 
10-15% boil off per hour is a good starting point. I brewed yesterday and started with 15 gallons and boiled for an hour down to 13.75 gallons. Nailed my gravities with a little extra wort to spare.
 
Water boils at 212°F at sea level. The temperature will be lower as altitude above sea level increases. Increasing the heat to create mini volcanoes does not increase the temperature, only increases evaporation. A boil only needs enough heat to keep most of the surface rolling.
Your 60 minute boil time would begin when the boil begins. Break material is a solid and will not boil off as water does when it becomes vapor. The break material just coagulates and settles to the bottom.
 
So what's that hot break foam that disappears then at the beginning? I thought that's all stuff that burns off and disappears.
 
So what's that hot break foam that disappears then at the beginning? I thought that's all stuff that burns off and disappears.

No. Thats coagulated protiens. If you dont skim it it will float around as little flakes and then sink to the bottom with the cold break when you chill.
 
I've read that a low boil may reduce hop isomerization. I think you want a good, solid boil. But - I don't think it has to be crazy. I try to get a good boil going up front, add my hop additions, then turn it down to a high-medium boil for most of the boil.

Personally, I'd worry more about too heavy of a boil impacting my ending volume and OG than what it will do the wort.
That said having a slightly higher OG than anticipated is a little easier to deal with compared to being too low.

I just brewed up a couple of batches the past week with a more vigorous boil than previous. PID control set at % for the first few batches would have a near volcanic uprising from the element, then slow right down to being light convection in the wort. Then another isolated boil. I've since spread the element out and ran at about 75% vs 55%. Boil was vigorous but aside from hot break was nowhere near blowing itself right out of the kettle with about 4" headspace. Will try to report back with hop utilization outcome.

10-15% boil off per hour is a good starting point. I brewed yesterday and started with 15 gallons and boiled for an hour down to 13.75 gallons. Nailed my gravities with a little extra wort to spare.
You and me both! :mug:
 
YEP, most definitely skim the discolored looking gunk form the hot break off; i use a mesh pasta strainer to skim off and sling on driveway; its the same one that I use when I "filter" or pour my run-off into the boil kettle; removing the hot break makes your final product cleaner

Also, sounds like your boil is fine; the difference of your hop utilization is trivial in my opinion from a minor boil to rolling boil; i would not be concerned as long as it is at least a gentle rolling boil
 
YEP, most definitely skim the discolored looking gunk form the hot break off; i use a mesh pasta strainer to skim off and sling on driveway; its the same one that I use when I "filter" or pour my run-off into the boil kettle; removing the hot break makes your final product cleaner

Not sure this is true. I've done it both ways, and haven't noticed a difference in the "cleanliness" of my beer. It seems to be more of a pain than anything, so I usually skip it.
 
Not sure this is true. I've done it both ways, and haven't noticed a difference in the "cleanliness" of my beer. It seems to be more of a pain than anything, so I usually skip it.

It might not be noticeable to some (prob not even me). However, if you want to fine tune your end product it is worth considering. Below is a great article in preventing one of the most common off flavors: astringency in beer. I sometimes enter my beer in competitions and have been marked for this off-flavor. Skimming the hot break is mentioned and in my opinion, not a pain to remove. Takes 10 seconds...

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/astringency.html
 
It might not be noticeable to some (prob not even me). However, if you want to fine tune your end product it is worth considering. Below is a great article in preventing one of the most common off flavors: astringency in beer. I sometimes enter my beer in competitions and have been marked for this off-flavor. Skimming the hot break is mentioned and in my opinion, not a pain to remove. Takes 10 seconds...

http://www.winning-homebrew.com/astringency.html

Do you really fling it into the driveway? I don't know why, but this made me laugh. :D
 
Do you really fling it into the driveway? I don't know why, but this made me laugh. :D

I fling it in the bushes. It probably doesnt matter as much if you have a good whirlpool and arent sending that much trub to the fermenter. I do it out of tradition.
 
10-15% boil off per hour is a good starting point. I brewed yesterday and started with 15 gallons and boiled for an hour down to 13.75 gallons. Nailed my gravities with a little extra wort to spare.

I've never been able to make the boil off rate as a percentage of volume make any sense to me.

If I have 8 gallons in my 10 gallon pot and I boil it for an hour I lose 1 gallon (12.5%).

If I boil for another hour I will lose another gallon, not .875 gallons.

Boil off is a constant for a given vessel not a percentage based on the original volume.

I think the main thing is to determine what it is for your setup so that you can properly adjust your recipes so your pre-boil volume and gravity are correct for your desired goals.
 
I don't bother skimming off the hot break. If you get a good hot break, rapid chill/cold break, and cold crash, it'll all settle out anyway. Nothing wrong with sending all the trub into the fermenter either, in my experience.
 
so then do a lot of people skim that off/are you supposed to?

I don't. It 'breaks', dissappears (but my wort looks like egg drop soup a little!), and then I start the timer.

I've never been able to make the boil off rate as a percentage of volume make any sense to me.

If I have 8 gallons in my 10 gallon pot and I boil it for an hour I lose 1 gallon (12.5%).

If I boil for another hour I will lose another gallon, not .875 gallons.

Boil off is a constant for a given vessel not a percentage based on the original volume.

I think the main thing is to determine what it is for your setup so that you can properly adjust your recipes so your pre-boil volume and gravity are correct for your desired goals.

Right- boil off % doesn't make sense to me either.

I have a keg that I boil in. When I make a 10.5 gallon batch, I start with 12 gallons as I boil off 1.5 gallons per hour.

When I make a 5.5 gallon batch, I start with 7 gallons as I boil off 1.5 gallons per hour.

The boil off amount should not change in the same pot with the same heat. If I start with 3 gallons, it'll still boil off 1.5 gallons (50%!).

In the first example, it's 12.5% and in the second it's 21%, and in the third it's 50%! Which is correct? Well, they ALL are. I still boil off 1.5 gallons per hour.
 
After mash & sparge wort are added to the BK, I crank the electric stove wide open to get a good hot break. Then let it boil a minute or two wide open. This gives a blooping, lava-like boil that I turn down to 8.8 or so on the stove dial to get an even, gently rolling boil. Since I do pb/pm biab in my 5 gallon kettle, I boil off about 1/2 to 3/4 gallons in the 1 hour boil. Hop utilization is good, as I toss the hops in loose. The gently rolling boil seems to work well & gives less boil off.
 
Well we had the same issue again as I mentioned in my OP. We were shooting for a 11 gallon batch this time and started with 14 in our 15.5 gallon boil keggle. This time I skimmed (which is awesome BTW and produced ZERO hot break). We had the burner connected to a tank that was probably runnin a little low on propane but nonetheless we achieved a pretty good boil with me skimming off the hot break foam as it showed up. Once the foam topped showing up and we achieved that comfortable rolling boil we started the 60 minute timer. About half way through we weren't satisfied with the intensity of the rolling boil so we hooked up a newly filled propane tank and BOOM we were boiling like crazy like last time and walked away to go eat our pizza we ordered for lunch (yeah start wincing and cringing) we came back out to the garage and.....yeah.....it was boil over city. Volume wise we started at 14 as I mentioned before and ended with 10.5 only transferring 10 into the fermenter. Yeah we were depressed because we wanted to end at 12-ish gallons to transfer to the fermenter but oh well. Once again, my question is, is that aggressive of a boil necessary??? I feel like once the hot break is gone, it's gone, and "boiling off" those proteins just can't be accomplished anymore unless of course you skim during the boil and after hot break. I feel like we shoulda been satisfied with that original rolling boil we had going. Any thoughts?
 
Well besides the hotbreak you need drive off dms, and make a small amount of malliard reactions. But a gentle rolling boil is fine (as long as its rolling). As long as the entirety is 100C (ish) and you are hitting a 10% evaporation rate per hour.
 
Well we had the same issue again as I mentioned in my OP. We were shooting for a 11 gallon batch this time and started with 14 in our 15.5 gallon boil keggle. This time I skimmed (which is awesome BTW and produced ZERO hot break). We had the burner connected to a tank that was probably runnin a little low on propane but nonetheless we achieved a pretty good boil with me skimming off the hot break foam as it showed up. Once the foam topped showing up and we achieved that comfortable rolling boil we started the 60 minute timer. About half way through we weren't satisfied with the intensity of the rolling boil so we hooked up a newly filled propane tank and BOOM we were boiling like crazy like last time and walked away to go eat our pizza we ordered for lunch (yeah start wincing and cringing) we came back out to the garage and.....yeah.....it was boil over city. Volume wise we started at 14 as I mentioned before and ended with 10.5 only transferring 10 into the fermenter. Yeah we were depressed because we wanted to end at 12-ish gallons to transfer to the fermenter but oh well. Once again, my question is, is that aggressive of a boil necessary??? I feel like once the hot break is gone, it's gone, and "boiling off" those proteins just can't be accomplished anymore unless of course you skim during the boil and after hot break. I feel like we shoulda been satisfied with that original rolling boil we had going. Any thoughts?

The hot break still happens, even with skimming, as what happens is the protein bonds 'break' and then the protein coagulates into that 'egg drop soup' looking stuff. Even with skimming, you should have a hot break. You don't 'boil off' the proteins- they drop out and coagulate.

What I do is set my timer for 60 minutes right after the hot break. I have a nice rolling boil, and my climate is fairly dry especially in the winter (35% humidity give or take) and I boil off about 1.5 gallons per hour in my converted keg.
 
Boiling wort is normally required for the following reasons:

1. Extracts, isomerizes and dissolves the hop α-acids
2. Stops enzymatic activity
3. Kills bacteria, fungi, and wild yeast 4. Coagulates undesired proteins and polyphenols in the hot break
5. Evaporates undesirable harsh hop oils, sulfur compounds, ketones, and esters.
6. Promotes the formation of melanoidins and caramelizes some of the wort sugars (although this is not desirable in all styles)
7. Evaporates water vapor, condensing the wort to the proper volume and gravity (this is not a primary reason, it's a side effect of the process)

A minimum of a one hour boil is usually recommended for making quality all grain beer. A boil of 90 minutes is also common, with the bittering hops added for the last hour. One exception to boiling was historically used to brew the Berliner Weisse style. Here, the hops were added to the mash tun, and the wort is cooled after sparging and then fermented with a combination of lactobacillus from the malt and an ale yeast.

Boiling for less than one hour risks under-utilization of hop acids, so the bitterness level may be lower than expected. In addition, the head may not be as well formed due to improper extraction of isohumulones from the hops. A good rolling boil for one hour is necessary to bind hop compounds to polypeptides, forming colloids that remain in the beer and help form a good stable head. An open, rolling boil aids in the removal of undesired volatile compounds, such as some harsh hop compounds, esters, and sulfur compounds. It is important to boil wort uncovered so that these substances do not condense back into the wort.

Clarity will be also be affected by not using at least a full hour rolling boil, as there will not be a adequate hot break to remove the undesired proteins. This will also affect shelf life of the bottled beer, since the proteins will over time promote bacterial growth even in properly sanitized beer bottles. The preservative qualities of hops will also suffer greatly if the wort is not boiled for one hour, as the extraction of the needed compounds will be impaired.

Boiling wort will also lower the pH of the wort slightly. Having the proper pH to begin the boil is not normally a problem, but if it is below 5.2, protein precipitation will be retarded and carbonate salt should be used to increase the alkalinity. The pH will drop during the boil and at the conclusion should be 5.2-5.5 in order for proper cold break to form and fermentation to proceed normally. Incorrect wort pH during the boil may result in clarity or fermentation problems.

The effects of boiling on the wort should match the intended style. It is often desirable to form melanoidins which are compounds produced by heat acting on amino acids and sugars. These add a darker color and a maltier flavor to beer. When desired, an insufficient boil will not form enough melanoidins for the style. Boiling the initial runnings of high gravity wort will quickly caramelize the sugars in the wort. This is desired in Scottish ales, but would be inappropriate in light lagers.

Vigorously boiling wort uncovered will evaporate water from the wort at a rate of about one gallon per hour, depending the brewing setup. In order to create a beer with the appropriate target original gravity, changes in the wort volume must be taken into account. Longer boil times or additions of sterilized water may be required to hit the target gravity.
 
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