Advice using WLP661 &WLP672?

[Beer666]

I recently picked up a pack each of White Labs WLP672 Lactobacillus Brevis and WLP661 Pediococcus Damnosus and would like some advice on incorporating them into my expanding sour collection.

So far have 3 batches of Flanders Red all fermented with Roeselare and various dregs. My next one will be a golden sour. I intend to pre sour with Omega Labs lacto, then ferment with farmhouse Hornindal kveik followed by WLP655 Belgian sour mix and the above bacteria strains.

I would like to make some starters and also dose up a few different demijohns. The first beer i brewed has little acidity so i thought it might be good for that as well.

Is it even necessary to use extra bacteria with WLP655? What can i expect from using them time wise. Are there any advantages to using both together and is the pedio best used in conjunction with brett?

I have not been able to find much info on these but getting addicted to staring at the weird stuff growing on top of my beer. Keen to hear your opinions. Cheers

 

[RPh_Guy]

WLP655 Belgian sour mix

WLP655 already contains both Lactobacillus and Pediococcus.

Relative to yeast, different strains of bacteria do not contribute much variety of flavors, so building a diverse collection of different bacteria is not be beneficial. It's the Brett that really makes these beers special and the variety amount Brett and Sacc strains is huge in comparison. Getting desirable flavor from the yeast is the main goal. Starting a ranch of different Brett cultures would definitely be worthwhile, including dregs.

I intend to pre sour with Omega Labs lacto, then ferment with farmhouse Hornindal kveik followed by WLP655 Belgian sour mix and the above bacteria strains.

Pre-souring greatly mutes the character of the yeast, creating a much more bland beer relative to post-souring. For a traditional souring process using a mixed culture like 655, post-souring means using the right amount of hops to delay souring by a several months so that both the Sacc and Brett have a chance to add flavor before being inhibited by the acid from Pedio.

I recently picked up a pack each of White Labs WLP672 Lactobacillus Brevis and WLP661 Pediococcus Damnosus and would like some advice on incorporating them into my expanding sour collection.

What do we actually desire in a bacterial culture? A few things:
1. We want the culture to be clean enough that it won't create a bunch of off-flavors that would extend the time required for aging.
2. We want it to produce a good amount of sourness. This means either working fast in unhopped beers at room temp so we can use it for fast souring (pre, co, or post), or being hop tolerant so that we can use it for a traditional process where we delay souring by using hops.
....
Any commercial bacterial culture will be reasonably clean (therefore lacking flavor variety, as I mentioned).
Commercial cultures other than those containing L. plantarum do not provide adequate fast souring ability at lower temps.
All commercial bacterial cultures are fairly limited with regard to hop tolerance relative to cultures in sour beer dregs, so therefore combining multiple commercial bacterial cultures of Pedio provides no souring benefit.

Without any benefit to flavor or souring speed, I do not recommend using commercial strains of bacteria beyond L. plantarum or the Pedio strains that come in mixed cultures like WLP655.

What can i expect from using them time wise. Are there any advantages to using both together and is the pedio best used in conjunction with brett?

Souring speed greatly depends on the amount of hops and the temperature.
If the beer has little or no hops, it will sour quickly. Either Lacto or Pedio can handle this.
If the beer has a substantial amount of hops, souring will be delayed and generally Pedio is much better suited for handling the souring since Lacto generally isn't as hop-tolerant and tends to die faster.

Generally speaking, Pedio should always be used in conjunction with Brettanomyces. This is because Pedio is prone to producing diacetyl and exopolysaccharides, both of which are detrimental and only Brett will eliminate.

In summary:

• There's no benefit from adding additional strains of commercial bacteria.
• Pre-souring produced more bland beer.
• Playing with different Brett strains and sour beer dregs will provide the complexity you want.
• Use the amount of hops best suited for your desired timeframe and souring process.

Hope this all makes sense.
Cheers

 

[Funky Frank]

I agree with everything except:

There's no benefit from adding additional strains of commercial bacteria.

I agree diversity of bacteria will not likely impact flavor however, if you are planning a long-term sour program such as continual reuse of yeast cakes or soleras then there may be a benefit. Every brewery and brewer are a little different thus the environment that we give our little friends is different. We know that certain species of bacteria and yeast perform better or worse or differently in different environments. Bacteria have the ability to trade genetic material between species in the hopes that a beneficial mutant is created to thrive in that particular environment.

Is bacterial diversity needed? Absolutely not. Is bacterial diversity beneficial? Maybe on a small scale. Should you buy all the commercial strains to mix together? Naw, the dregs add bacterial diversity too.

To Beer666, go ahead and just pitch the extra bacteria packs in with your yeast.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Bacteria have the ability to trade genetic material between species in the hopes that a beneficial mutant is created to thrive in that particular environment.

Just have to nitpick, sorry...
Some bacteria and yeast can exchange plasmids (short segments of genetic code); it's not a mutation.
I'm not sure if it's possible between species. I suppose it might be.

 

[Beer666]

Thank you for the replies, most appreciated. Been thinking about it for the last few days. I was concerned i had killed of the bugs by using too many aged hops but the weird flavour bitterness is fading into something quite pleasant so something good must be happening to the beer. I have only used a few hops in the mash for the last few batches and although it tastes quite nice i miss the bitterness. I was looking for something that would tolerate a few IBU's. Now i know what they do i will make a few more split batches and experiment. Will definitely be ordering some more beer for dregs.
If i want to transfer bugs from one demijohn to another can i simply siphon some yeast over? Will that be enough to do anything or should that be made into a starter first? What is the time span for a brett/pedio beer? Will pitching larger amounts of these bacteria speed up souring or is it unnecessary?

 

[RPh_Guy]

If i want to transfer bugs from one demijohn to another can i simply siphon some yeast over?

Yep. No starter needed.

A traditional fermentation method will generally take 6-18 months.

I'm not actually sure whether a higher pitch rate for Pedio will hasten souring for a traditional method. It hasn't been studied because traditional sour beer producers don't pitch bacteria. If I had to guess, I'd say it probably doesn't have much effect.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pediococcus

 

[Beer666]

I'm not actually sure whether a higher pitch rate for Pedio will hasten souring for a traditional method. It hasn't been studied because traditional sour beer producers don't pitch bacteria. If I had to guess, I'd say it probably doesn't have much effect.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Pediococcus

Ah because its fermented in wooden barrels containing bacteria. Thank you it finally clicked why i couldn't find much info. I will have to try and sour a small batch and see how long it takes.
I made a unhopped starter with wlp655 and its already fairly sour so fingers crossed.