Advice on Chocolate Stout Recipe

[worlddivides]

Right, I do understand that's the idea, I just remember it sort of losing all the flavor. That said I may have also changed the amount some, or tweaked some other recipe ingredient, or even just something like fermented at a different temperature, any of which would also have made changes I unfairly attributed to the Carafa. I'll have to try it again.

They do recommend a max of 5% in a beer. Most of my uses of it have been between 2% and 5%. I'd hardly imagine you could "lose all flavor" from a percentage that low unless it was the only dark malt you were using, but then that'd be an issue in itself.

https://www.weyermann.de/en-gb/product/weyermann-carafa-special-type-3/

On their chart, they give it a 4/5 for "coffee," a 3/5 for "cacao," a 3.2/5 for "dark chocolate," a 3/5 for "bready." I do remember the first time I used it, thinking that it had a flavor and aroma much milder than its color would suggest, but it was definitely there.

 

[mashdar]

Many dunkels use just carafa special to hit 15srm (the rest of the bill is a mix of munich and pils). Added for the whole mash, it still provides more flavor than I'd like!

 

[worlddivides]

Many dunkels use just carafa special to hit 15srm (the rest of the bill is a mix of munich and pils). Added for the whole mash, it still provides more flavor than I'd like!

Yeah, after I posted that I thought it sounded like I was agreeing that you could lose flavor from, say, a 3% Carafa Special 3 in the mash when that isn't the case at all. There are some styles that get all of their dark malt character from a debittered black malt and nothing else, so there are styles that you really don't want anything dark other than Carafa Special in (though I would say you are very unlikely to want to make, say, an Irish dry stout or a Russian Imperial Stout with just debittered black malts). One example would be a black IPA, where you obviously want bitterness from the hops but you don't want astringency from the malt, which is why debittered black malt is so popular there. And there are a lot of dark lagers that want a really smooth flavor too, so they might only use a debittered black malt as the only black malt in there. And, like you say, Weyerman points out that it's got some pretty strong coffee, cocoa, and dark chocolate flavor in there, which might make you want to use Special 1 or Special 2 instead of Special 3.

 

[worlddivides]

Ironically, Carafa Special 1-3 were sold out at the place I wanted to buy all my grains, so I omitted it from the recipe and adjusted my grain bill like this:

Grain bill:
2.4kg of Maris Otter malt (76.2%)
200g of flaked barley (6.3%)
200g of chocolate malt (6.3%)
100g of Crystal 150L (3.2%)
100g of roasted barley malt (3.2%)
50g of Crystal 60L (1.6%)

Before ordering it, I checked another site and they didn't carry any Carafa at all. Then... after I ordered... I found one place actually had Carafa Special 1, 2, and 3 all in stock (though they didn't have some of the other stuff I needed).

I removed the EKG at G_Robertus's recommendation and also switched from Crystal 75L to Crystal 150L.

This gets me estimated results of:
SRM: 35
IBUs: 41
Original Gravity: 1.053
Final Gravity: 1.012
ABV: 5.38%

 

[tracer bullet]

Sounds yummy! If you remember to, let us know how it tastes / if it reminds you of anything commercial to compare / if you'd do it again / etc.

One thought, 41 IBU might be fairly hoppy. It's a bit Pale Ale to me or even a touch higher than that. I'd consider more like 25-30 but I do not want to imply you're doing anything wrong or that it won't taste pretty great.

 

[worlddivides]

Sounds yummy! If you remember to, let us know how it tastes / if it reminds you of anything commercial to compare / if you'd do it again / etc.

One thought, 41 IBU might be fairly hoppy. It's a bit Pale Ale to me or even a touch higher than that. I'd consider more like 25-30 but I do not want to imply you're doing anything wrong or that it won't taste pretty great.

Stylistically, 41 IBU is a bit on the low side according to BJCP for an "American Stout" (though my ingredients and yeast are more English in character overall):

https://www.bjcp.org/style/2015/20/20B/american-stout/

Vital Statistics​

IBU​

35 - 75

SRM​

30 - 40

OG​

1.050 - 1.075

FG​

1.010 - 1.022

ABV​

5% - 7%

Obviously I'm not really following this super closely since I'm using English yeast, English malts, and English hops.

But according to BJCP, "Irish Stout" is 25 to 45 IBU, "Irish Extra Stout" is 35 to 50 IBU, "Sweet Stout" is 20 to 40 IBU, "Foreign Extra Stout" is 50 to 70 IBU, and on and on. So 41 IBUs is within the range. I've done coffee stouts where I added a 5 minute hop addition, but I removed that with only the 60 minute (Northern Brewer) and a 20 minute (Fuggles), so there should definitely be some hop character, but not as forward as it would have been in my original recipe. If I remember correctly, Guinness is 45 IBUs, and that's 4.2% ABV.

 

[tracer bullet]

Yep I think you'll be fine. As always it depends on what you want. I checked BJCP info and they say a sweet stout (what I think of when I hear chocolate) is 20-40, and an oatmeal stout is 25-40.

It was just something to consider and you have! Go with it.

 

[worlddivides]

Yep I think you'll be fine. As always it depends on what you want. I checked BJCP info and they say a sweet stout (what I think of when I hear chocolate) is 20-40, and an oatmeal stout is 25-40.

It was just something to consider and you have! Go with it.

Yeah, if my girlfriend wasn't lactose intolerant and didn't dislike vanilla, I'd probably be putting both lactose and vanilla in this, which would definitely put it in the category of sweet stout, which I think the world could use some more of.

 

[worlddivides]

I have to say, I forgot how insanely fast S-04 is. I brewed this yesterday and I had airlock action within 4 hours of pitching the yeast. When I woke up this morning, even though the fermenter's internal temperature was 19C (66F), fermentation was already in high gear with very frequent, rapid-fire bubbling. I have to imagine Brewer's Friend's estimated 1.012 final gravity is going to be wrong. I feel like they don't really calculate what portion of the grain bill is unfermentable (flaked barley and roasted barley both being 0% fermentable, whereas Crystal 150 is probably something like 20% fermentable -- not to mention the cocoa powder I added, which has zero sugar in it, so also is 0% fermentable) or the temperature that I mashed at (mainly 68C / 154F with it going up to 70C / 158C for a short period late in the mash too). I guess I'll have to see, but I'll be shocked if the FG ends up at 1.012.

 

[day_trippr]

I'll be shocked if the FG ends up at 1.012.

I won't

Cheers!

 

[G_robertus]

I have to say, I forgot how insanely fast S-04 is. I brewed this yesterday and I had airlock action within 4 hours of pitching the yeast. When I woke up this morning, even though the fermenter's internal temperature was 19C (66F), fermentation was already in high gear with very frequent, rapid-fire bubbling. I have to imagine Brewer's Friend's estimated 1.012 final gravity is going to be wrong. I feel like they don't really calculate what portion of the grain bill is unfermentable (flaked barley and roasted barley both being 0% fermentable, whereas Crystal 150 is probably something like 20% fermentable -- not to mention the cocoa powder I added, which has zero sugar in it, so also is 0% fermentable) or the temperature that I mashed at (mainly 68C / 154F with it going up to 70C / 158C for a short period late in the mash too). I guess I'll have to see, but I'll be shocked if the FG ends up at 1.012.

Flaked grains are very much fermentable. RB/roasted malt also is to a certain degree, iirc ~20%. Same goes for other specialty grains with fermentability increasing as colour decreases. I don't know how cocoa interacts with gravity, but my guess would be very little. S-04 can also attenuate quite decently, so it won't finish extremely high I think. I don't know the exact calculations they run though, so I'm not sure how accurate it would be. Maybe a few points higher, but nothing crazy (e.g. 1.020).

 

[worlddivides]

I won't
View attachment 857435
Cheers!

It's definitely been going at it like crazy straight out of the gate. I have gotten 80% AA from S-04 before (though in ales that I didn't mash so high and that has fewer unfermentables), so my shock may be a bit exaggerated, but I'm expecting maybe somewhere between 1.015 to 1.019 instead of the 1.012 estimated by Brewer's Friend. Guess I'll have to see. The gravity sample was definitely one of the best tasting I've had, so looking forward to see how this tastes in a month from now.

 

[worlddivides]

Flaked grains are very much fermentable. RB/roasted malt also is to a certain degree, iirc ~20%. Same goes for other specialty grains with fermentability increasing as colour decreases. I don't know how cocoa interacts with gravity, but my guess would be very little. S-04 can also attenuate quite decently, so it won't finish extremely high I think. I don't know the exact calculations they run though, so I'm not sure how accurate it would be. Maybe a few points higher, but nothing crazy (e.g. 1.020).

I see what you mean about flaked grains. They're unfermentable on their own, but they borrow the enzymes from malted grains they're mashed with to convert the starches to sugars. I've long heard that darker crystal/caramel malts are usually less than 20% fermentable, chocolate malt is also under 20%, and roasted malt was either at 0% or close to 0%. But obviously not everything I hear or read is necessarily accurate.

I wouldn't be disappointed if it turned out to be around 1.020 or so, but that would mean only 60% apparent attenuation, whereas I'm guessing maybe more like 70%? (around 1.015 or so?) I won't know for sure until I take the final gravity reading, though.


EDIT: One thing I also kind of wonder about is the effect of the 70C (158F) temperature in the mash. I know some people do really short mashes, whereas I had the mash temp at 68C (154F) for the first 30 minutes of the mash. It was around 66.5C or so a little before the 30 minute mark, so I increased the mash temp, but overshot it a bit and hit 70C. I know that some people only do 30 minute mashes anyway, and it's my understanding that higher mash temps mean faster saccharification, so I think it broke down to something like: first 30 minutes at 68C (with the latter part around 67C), next 10 minutes at 70C and 69C, last 20 minutes at 68C. I know there are those out there who have done experiments on mash temperature and mash time to test it out, plus there's been a lot of research into the subject, but it does make me wonder.

 

[G_robertus]

I see what you mean about flaked grains. They're unfermentable on their own, but they borrow the enzymes from malted grains they're mashed with to convert the starches to sugars. I've long heard that darker crystal/caramel malts are usually less than 20% fermentable, chocolate malt is also under 20%, and roasted malt was either at 0% or close to 0%. But obviously not everything I hear or read is necessarily accurate.

I wouldn't be disappointed if it turned out to be around 1.020 or so, but that would mean only 60% apparent attenuation, whereas I'm guessing maybe more like 70%? (around 1.015 or so?) I won't know for sure until I take the final gravity reading, though.


EDIT: One thing I also kind of wonder about is the effect of the 70C (158F) temperature in the mash. I know some people do really short mashes, whereas I had the mash temp at 68C (154F) for the first 30 minutes of the mash. It was around 66.5C or so a little before the 30 minute mark, so I increased the mash temp, but overshot it a bit and hit 70C. I know that some people only do 30 minute mashes anyway, and it's my understanding that higher mash temps mean faster saccharification, so I think it broke down to something like: first 30 minutes at 68C (with the latter part around 67C), next 10 minutes at 70C and 69C, last 20 minutes at 68C. I know there are those out there who have done experiments on mash temperature and mash time to test it out, plus there's been a lot of research into the subject, but it does make me wonder.

Exactly! Flaked and raw grains cannot convert themselves, but they're full of starch and proteins that can be converted by actual malt.

I've read the same thing on roast grains, but the 20% was something I calculated myself based on simple recipes with 10% roast malt and only pilsner as base. I did the same for a few crystal malts, but I don't remember those numbers.

Regarding temperature, I've never done any actual side by side tests. There are tools that do estimate fermentability, but there are many factors that come into play. Especially if you add a bunch of specialty grains. In your case I'm not sure the few degrees up or down that late into the mash really mattered. Generally 45 minutes should be more than enough for conversion. Temperature speeds up enzymatic processes, but also speeds up protein degradation. The final part of a mash might be the trade-off of degradation and activity catching up and stretching the process out. In any case it will increase your FG, but by how much I don't know. It also depends on how well your kettle can hold that high temperature over the entire volume of the mash. I mash big imperial stouts at 69°C, but lately I'm having issues with a lower FG than planned. I'm putting it up to maintaining the correct temp, so next time I'll try higher. Might also be the double mash, but I don't have enough samples to draw that conclusion yet. It's probably best to try a few times to really dial in a recipe. Even though most of us want direct results at the first go, adapting is probably the way to go.

 

[worlddivides]

Exactly! Flaked and raw grains cannot convert themselves, but they're full of starch and proteins that can be converted by actual malt.

I've read the same thing on roast grains, but the 20% was something I calculated myself based on simple recipes with 10% roast malt and only pilsner as base. I did the same for a few crystal malts, but I don't remember those numbers.

Regarding temperature, I've never done any actual side by side tests. There are tools that do estimate fermentability, but there are many factors that come into play. Especially if you add a bunch of specialty grains. In your case I'm not sure the few degrees up or down that late into the mash really mattered. Generally 45 minutes should be more than enough for conversion. Temperature speeds up enzymatic processes, but also speeds up protein degradation. The final part of a mash might be the trade-off of degradation and activity catching up and stretching the process out. In any case it will increase your FG, but by how much I don't know. It also depends on how well your kettle can hold that high temperature over the entire volume of the mash. I mash big imperial stouts at 69°C, but lately I'm having issues with a lower FG than planned. I'm putting it up to maintaining the correct temp, so next time I'll try higher. Might also be the double mash, but I don't have enough samples to draw that conclusion yet. It's probably best to try a few times to really dial in a recipe. Even though most of us want direct results at the first go, adapting is probably the way to go.

My SG actually ended up being EXACTLY what Brewer's Friend estimated: 1.053, so I'm not sure if that means that the saccharification process was mostly done by the 30-minute mark or the drop from 68C to 66.5C from 0 minutes to 30 minutes offset the increase to 70C shortly after the 30-minute mark or what. Regardless, from what I've read from various experiments, me temporarily overshooting to 70C might have some kind of effect on the FG, but it shouldn't have any real effect on the mouthfeel, flavor, and overall impression of the beer. As you say, there are a lot of factors that come into play, but those few degrees up or down shouldn't really affect much.

 

[worlddivides]

I don't know the exact calculations they run though, so I'm not sure how accurate it would be. Maybe a few points higher, but nothing crazy (e.g. 1.020).

The fermentation ended in about 36 hours and I waited until there was zero airlock activity, then took a gravity reading. It's at 1.018, so 6 points higher than what Brewer's Friend estimated, but around where I thought it'd be when I considered the unfermentable/low fermentable grains and the higher mash temp.

I had considered maybe not adding gelatin in the keg at packaging since it's 35 SRM and S-04 has such high flocculation, but the cocoa in the gravity sample has me thinking I'm probably going to want to use gelatin to pull the cocoa out of suspension (since I doubt cold crashing alone will be enough to accomplish that).

When I tasted it yesterday, it had a much stronger chocolate flavor than previous chocolate stouts I've made, so using both pure cocoa powder and cocoa nibs was a good choice. The black sugar/brown sugar/molasses flavor was stronger than I expected, but not overpowering.

I'll probably keg in about a week to a week and a half from now, and I plan to take another gravity sample before cold crashing, but I imagine it'll be 1.018 then as well (OG was 1.053).

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

2.4kg of Maris Otter malt (76.2%)
200g of flaked barley (6.3%)
200g of chocolate malt (6.3%)
100g of Crystal 150L (3.2%)
100g of roasted barley malt (3.2%)
50g of Crystal 60L (1.6%)

Looks pretty darned tasty! How'd it taste before you added the hops? And what hops did you end up using? I tend to go with willamette or ekg in my chocolatey stouts, but not averse to trying something different the next time...

 

[worlddivides]

Looks pretty darned tasty! How'd it taste before you added the hops? And what hops did you end up using? I tend to go with willamette or ekg in my chocolatey stouts, but not averse to trying something different the next time...

No idea. I've never tasted wort before adding hops. I used Northern Brewer at 60 minutes and Fuggle at 20 minutes. I've used EKG in lots of coffee stouts before, but ended up removing it from the recipe for this one.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

No idea. I've never tasted wort before adding hops.

Ok (you should, tho), it's usually pretty damned delicious, especially a nice high gravity stout (1.080+), tastes like dessert!

I used Northern Brewer at 60 minutes and Fuggle at 20 minutes. I've used EKG in lots of coffee stouts before, but ended up removing it from the recipe for this one.

Now that you mention it, I also used Northern Brewer hop for stout bittering once, and it was very nice, thanks -- I've added some to my shopping list!

 

[worlddivides]

Ok (you should, tho), it's usually pretty damned delicious, especially a nice high gravity stout (1.080+), tastes like dessert!

Heh, I think I'll pass on that. I do taste the gravity reading before pitching the yeast, but I don't really have any reason to taste the post-mash / pre-boil wort.

 

[tracer bullet]

The fermentation ended in about 36 hours and I waited until there was zero airlock activity, then took a gravity reading. It's at 1.018

Also, it's not totally done yet.

I don't really have any reason to taste the post-mash / pre-boil wort.

You should try it. It won't blow your socks off because it's yummy, but it'll tell you about another phase of the brew day, along the way. You can often get an even better feel for your grain choices without the hops getting in the way of that data point.

 

[worlddivides]

Also, it's not totally done yet.


You should try it. It won't blow your socks off because it's yummy, but it'll tell you about another phase of the brew day, along the way. You can often get an even better feel for your grain choices without the hops getting in the way of that data point.

I do plan to take another gravity reading in maybe 7-8 days from now, but since there's been zero airlock activity, I don't expect it to be at 1.012 then. Maybe 1.017 to 1.015, though?

You do make a good point about tasting the wort with grains but without hops involved, but I'd always just thought that since there will always be hops in the beer itself, there's not much of a point of tasting it before adding the hops. Wouldn't hurt to taste it with my next brew, though. First started brewing over a decade ago and never tasted non-hopped wort, so I suppose it's probably something I should do just because it might be kind of odd that I haven't ever even thought to do it before now.

 

[Velnerj]

I do plan to take another gravity reading in maybe 7-8 days from now, but since there's been zero airlock activity, I don't expect it to be at 1.012 then. Maybe 1.017 to 1.015, though?

You do make a good point about tasting the wort with grains but without hops involved, but I'd always just thought that since there will always be hops in the beer itself, there's not much of a point of tasting it before adding the hops. Wouldn't hurt to taste it with my next brew, though. First started brewing over a decade ago and never tasted non-hopped wort, so I suppose it's probably something I should do just because it might be kind of odd that I haven't ever even thought to do it before now.

Definitely give it another week, you might be surprised. I have a rapt pill and have watched beers eek their way down over several days without airlock activity. It won't do miracles but probably 3 points of gravity you'll be able to shave off.

 

[worlddivides]

Definitely give it another week, you might be surprised. I have a rapt pill and have watched beers eek their way down over several days without airlock activity. It won't do miracles but probably 3 points of gravity you'll be able to shave off.

I've gotten so into the habit of not even taking my first gravity reading post-fermentation until 10-12 days after pitching the yeast that taking a gravity sample now is pretty uncharacteristic. I have seen those Rapt pill charts online where it shows 85-90% of the fermentation done within the first few days, then it just slowly, slowly, slowly bringing it down after that. It'll be interesting to see whether or not the gravity has changed much in a week from now.

 

[tracer bullet]

Yeah I basically watch a ton of fermentation activity and know that the yeast did their job. Then I wait until it appears to stop, add 2 more weeks, and then keg. At that point I take my one and only FG reading because it is what it is, not much I can change.

Making beer is like cooking, definitely taste the ingredients on their own and the combination along the way. One of the best things I ever did was go to the LHBS (which isn't an option for everyone) with about 20 small bags that I put a half cup or so of 20 different grains in. I labeled them of course, tracked them correctly to be sure to pay correctly, and then at home had a huge taste testing where I even took notes. I learned what caramel 20 vs 40 vs 60 etc. tasted like, how the British crystals were similar but different, how pale chocolate and chocolate compared to each other, and so on. At a minimum do taste things along the way.

 

[worlddivides]

Yeah I basically watch a ton of fermentation activity and know that the yeast did their job. Then I wait until it appears to stop, add 2 more weeks, and then keg. At that point I take my one and only FG reading because it is what it is, not much I can change.

Making beer is like cooking, definitely taste the ingredients on their own and the combination along the way. One of the best things I ever did was go to the LHBS (which isn't an option for everyone) with about 20 small bags that I put a half cup or so of 20 different grains in. I labeled them of course, tracked them correctly to be sure to pay correctly, and then at home had a huge taste testing where I even took notes. I learned what caramel 20 vs 40 vs 60 etc. tasted like, how the British crystals were similar but different, how pale chocolate and chocolate compared to each other, and so on. At a minimum do taste things along the way.

Oh, I've tasted all of the grains raw. And when I get a new grain I haven't used before, I'll usually take one or two grains and taste it. I've just never tasted the pre-hopped wort. Haven't really seen the point, but it's the only stage of the process I haven't tasted, so I probably should just try it at some point.

Well, technically speaking, I have tried it for kettle souring where I tasted the pre-hopped wort after it had been soured and before I did the boil and added the hops. But I don't think that'd count since it's a pretty different process.

I do kind of regret tasting hop pellet powder at one point, though. It's good to smell and great to taste in the wort and beer, but not great to taste at the pellet stage.

 

[G_robertus]

S-04 can stall a bit sometimes even though it's super fast! I noticed this after moving to bigger batches, smaller batches seem to have this a bit less. It might still drop a point or two by the time you take your final reading. Still, I think 1.018 would also work in this style albeit a bit on the high side

 

[worlddivides]

S-04 can stall a bit sometimes even though it's super fast! I noticed this after moving to bigger batches, smaller batches seem to have this a bit less. It might still drop a point or two by the time you take your final reading. Still, I think 1.018 would also work in this style albeit a bit on the high side

Agreed. I don't expect it to drop a ton. 1.018 isn't that unusual for really malty stouts, and for milk stouts, I've had FGs around 1.020 to 1.024. The sample I tasted wasn't actually that sweet, though it did have a decent amount of maltiness. Granted, it was pretty young, so it still needs a bit of time for the flavors to meld, even if the fermentation was 95% or so done.

I used to do Russian Imperial Stouts and Triple IPAs, but recently, I've been shooting for more in the 3.5% to 6% range without going into any of the really high ABV beers I used to brew. Partially because I would end up with those beers for years afterwards. Even if they tasted great, they took a while to get through, while a 5.5 gallon batch of Berliner Weisse or American pale ale or session IPA would be gone pretty quickly.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

/me resurrects an old thread to inquire:
Hey @worlddivides, how did your chocolatey stout turn out?

 

[worlddivides]

/me resurrects an old thread to inquire:
Hey @worlddivides, how did your chocolatey stout turn out?

It tasted very good. The rum flavor was a bit stronger than I thought it'd be, especially considering the relatively small amount in there, but it had a nice mouthfeel and a decent amount of chocolate flavor (though, again, not as much as I'd like). I made several other stouts after that: a smoked oatmeal stout, an Irish dry stout, and a brown ale that was so dark it was on the verge of being a lightly colored stout (though it didn't have any roasty flavors, being more of a malty overload). I've considered making another chocolatey stout, though I've considered some things to change about the next variant. Maybe I could convince my wife to let me put vanilla in it this time.