Advanced extract brewing

[dmtaylor]

Is the "dreaded FG 1.020" with extract a thing of the past?

It might be. I don't use enough extract anymore to know for sure. In years past, I *know* that extracts from different manufacturers differed in their fermentability. It wasn't an error in the ways you postulated, but it was perhaps a recipe design error where we really *needed* to sub some extract with simple sugar, but chose not to. And it's possible that since those days (I'm thinking 15+ years ago), manufacturers have stepped up their game and made most or all of their extracts more fermentable. But I remember when extracts did in fact often stick at 1.018-1.020 no matter what you did. Yeah it's probably less of an issue today than it used to be. But, don't be surprised, if every beer from your favorite extract source comes out in that range every time... the solution would simply be to try a different manufacturer next time... and to replace some extract with simple sugar that is 100% fermentable (I'd just use a pound of white table sugar).

Yeast choice is also a big factor, which applies not just to extract brewing, but for any recipe. If you want high attenuation, you should select an appropriate yeast. I remember the days where many kits contained "Edme ale yeast" or "Munton's ale yeast", which are both known today to have been notoriously poor attenuators same or similar to today's Windsor. So, yeast selection does matter and does require a little bit of research and/or experience. After all, this is a craft, for many of us at least.

 

[davidabcd]

I'm with you on adding some sugar. It will rip an FG down to 1.004 from 1.105. But that's not the norm for me. I'm good with the FG being around 1.025 if the circumstances are right.
I use the lightest DME as the biggest addition.

 

[ncbrewer]

I think there is still some of the 1.020 curse alive and well, but to a lesser extent. Years ago, I had many quit at 1.020. I tweaked my process and "cured" it. But I still get some ferments that quit at around 71 - 77% efficiency when using US-05 and other similar strains in terms of attenuation. While not all that bad, it should be, and usually is, higher. There have been some that went back to fermenting after bottling and had over-carbonation (no bottle bombs or serious gushers). Since there is a possible safety issue, I am working to eliminate the problem.

 

[kartracer2]

I went back and looked at my last 17 beers, all extract of course. I ended up with a 1.0142 FG and an AA of 77.3% average. In that average is one batch that would make that look better. It was was 1.020 FG & 66.4% AA.(?) On the other end of the scale is one that finished @ 1.011 & 85.6% AA.
Looking at them, the poorest performers were wheat heavy and used Lallermand Munich Classic or Belgian Wit yeast @71.5% AA average. (72.8% without that one outlier) I'm not sure I should use the term "poorest" as they were still were good, tasty beers,,, to me anyway.
Just some food for thought.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[bwible]

Second post above that one (199) reads like a decent Brulosophy experiment. I can see this being true.

I rarely do all extract beers. I use extract to boost my gravity where I need to. I’m doing 3 gallon batches on an Anvil Foundry 6.5 so I’m limited to an 8 lb grain bill.

When I use extract its always DME. Never LME. To the extent I care about color I will use Light, Golden, or especiallly Extra Light if I can find it. If I’m brewing a dark beer like a stout I will use dark because it doesn’t matter. I have made brown ales with really nice color by combining light, dark, and amber extracts in different proportions.

I can’t comment on the dreaded 1.020 fg as I’m not doing anything all extract.

We have several brewers in our club who do all extract and make really good beers. We used to have the debates over whether all grain was better, you have more control, etc and some of them used to get offended. We are a kinder gentler club these days and we don’t engage in such things for the most part anymore.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Back in my initial reply, ...

Like color, I can estimate FG accurately enough to know when beer has finished. Final gravity (using afinishing hydrometer) is +/- 1 or 2 GPs of the estimate. With sugar, I can adjust the ferment-ability of the wort to get the results that I want. I also use dry strains with a higher attenuation (Notthingham, S-04, US-05) and avoid strains (like Windsor) that don't ferment maltotriose. FWIW, I don't brew big (OG > 66-ish) beers with extract.

... I left out some details that may be helpful (now or in the future):

I use just DME; brand of DME is generally Briess, recently some batches with Muntons; I assume 75% ferment-ability of the DME (which is what Briess has in their product information sheets). I will use plisen, "golden light", pale ale, and amber DME; but not "traditional dark" or wheat. Boil time is 30 minutes (or less). I tend to brew/bottle on the weekends, so two weeks in the fermenter is common. Over the last couple of years, most of my DME based beers have been hop forward and DME only (no steeping grains) - so APAs, Ambers, IPAs, "Imperial Ambers". I add brewers yeast nutrient and Irish Moss 5 minutes before the end of the boil.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... intended for general discussion, but inspired by this quote to ask the question ...

I use extract to boost my gravity where I need to.

What about Brewers Crystals (link to BSG product, also in 1 lb packages) in a big beer?

I've used them a couple of in IPAs as they don't add color (2L). One definitely needs to make a slurry with them, but the beer came out fine.

A couple of years back, I did a "side by side" 10%-ish barley wine (double mash vs DME added). For me, two beers were noticably different and I didn't enjoy the "DME added" barley wine. So I'm thinking maybe try it again using brewers crystals in place of DME.

 

[Brooothru]

I went back and looked at my last 17 beers, all extract of course. I ended up with a 1.0142 FG and an AA of 77.3% average. In that average is one batch that would make that look better. It was was 1.020 FG & 66.4% AA.(?) On the other end of the scale is one that finished @ 1.011 & 85.6% AA.
Looking at them, the poorest performers were wheat heavy and used Lallermand Munich Classic or Belgian Wit yeast @71.5% AA average. (72.8% without that one outlier) I'm not sure I should use the term "poorest" as they were still were good, tasty beers,,, to me anyway.
Just some food for thought.
Cheers,
Joel B.

Out of curiosity, what extract manufacturer is your preferred? I'm starting to gravitate back to 'some' extract brewing, mostly as late additions to my all-grain sessions to up the SG on ones that comes up a little short on gravity, or as a means to making simple yeast starter worts. Briess Pilsen light (DME) is my usual go to, but I'm sussing out a recipe for a mini-mash that uses a 3.15# can of Munton's Maris Otter LME (the mini-mash grist is 1# Maris Otter, 1# Victory, 0.5# Carafoam, and 2 oz. Blackprinze 500L for color).

I appreciate the available literature from Briess with all the data points, especially the SRMs achieved at different O.G.s of the derived wort. I'd also assume that the DME is fresher since it is a U.S. domestic grain and maltster. It appears that Briess supplies More Beer with their bulk LME that MB then markets in flushed foil packs, thus reasonably fresh. I haven't used Munton's since I started as an extract brewer over 30 years ago, so I'm hoping it's good quality.

 

[Brooothru]

Back in my initial reply, ...



... I left out some details that may be helpful (now or in the future):

I use just DME; brand of DME is generally Briess, recently some batches with Muntons; I assume 75% ferment-ability of the DME (which is what Briess has in their product information sheets). I will use plisen, "golden light", pale ale, and amber DME; but not "traditional dark" or wheat. Boil time is 30 minutes (or less). I tend to brew/bottle on the weekends, so two weeks in the fermenter is common. Over the last couple of years, most of my DME based beers have been hop forward and DME only (no steeping grains) - so APAs, Ambers, IPAs, "Imperial Ambers". I add brewers yeast nutrient and Irish Moss 5 minutes before the end of the boil.

Hey, Brewn,

Can't thank you enough for reviving this "necro" thread, at just the right time. I've been wanting to go back to the future, so to speak, and play around with some extract and mini-mash brewing as a means to simplify brew day a bit. It doesn't hurt that the GABF Brewer of the Year won with an extract. Yeah, that kinda' piqued my interest.

Anyway, LOTS of good info and links on the topic for this "aspiring extract brewer". Appreciate the effort.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Out of curiosity, what extract manufacturer is your preferred? . . . a 3.15# can of Munton's Maris Otter LM . . .

I'm an extract brewer and have been since 1994. I tend to prefer Muntons to Briess for most of my brews, but I use both.
I think Muntons Maris Otter LME is all British, but only guaranteed to be 60% Maris Otter. Also, I've only seen it in 3.3# cans.

I usually brew with DME because it can be used in any amount without complicated weighing and storage of opened cans. I've only used Muntons Maris Otter LME one time.

I don't use it in any current recipes, but Muntons makes an "extra light" DME if you worry about color.

BTW: Adding DME to hot wort works best if it is dissolved in water before it's added.

 

[CascadesBrewer]

What options are there for extract other than Muntons and Briess? I know there are kits (like Brewers Best) with branded cans, but I have to suspect those are likely from Briess. I also suspect that Briess makes most of the store branded LME sold in the US.

 

[PCABrewing]

Looks like Carlson might still be available but could be re-branded Breiss.
There is also a hit on Coopers.

 

[kartracer2]

@Brooothru I guess I'm pretty much Briess for no other reason than just cuz. My boxed kit brews come from Northern/Midwest or MoreBeer so if they are Briess, that's me wet or dry I guess. For a'la carte it's Briess DME (haven't bought LME a'la cart in a really long time). I never really thought about or looked into Muntons being any different than Briess, Maybe I should.
As for as those LME "bags" are concerned, might be a good package for freshness but they are a pain to use IMHO. YMMV.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[kartracer2]

I know that LME has a bad rep but as of late the mfgs. have much better product I believe. I have not used William's Brewing as a supplier but they do have some interesting LME "blends/variety's" for sale. I haven't heard of any body using them but would love to hear from somebody that has.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[DuncB]

I'm using the LME from some bargain kits and pale ale malt in tins for my yeast starters. Seems to work okay.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

What options are there for extract other than Muntons and Briess?

Here are the ones that I am aware of Briess (link), Muntons (link), Coopers (link), and Weyermann (link).

In other forums, I occasionally see good reviews of Williams Brewing (link) LMEs.

Product descriptions may be a good starting point for educated guesses on who is repackaging which brands. Often the packaging will say "made and packaged for _____ by _____".

And, apparently hopped spray malt does exist (link).

 

[CascadesBrewer]

Here are the ones that I am aware

Good info. I have only seen Briess and Muntons DME at my local stores. I would be interested in trying Weyermann extracts. And William's does have some interesting ones (like "William's German Pils Extract" and "William's Belgian Pale Extract").

 

[Brooothru]

Here are the ones that I am aware of Briess (link), Muntons (link), Coopers (link), and Weyermann (link).

In other forums, I occasionally see good reviews of Williams Brewing (link) LMEs.

Product descriptions may be a good starting point for educated guesses on who is repackaging which brands. Often the packaging will say "made and packaged for _____ by _____".

And, apparently hopped spray malt does exist (link).

That's terrific. I never knew Weyermann produced and marketed LME. Munton's is quite a bit more expensive than Briess here in the U.S., $29.95 for a 3.15# tin whereas Briess is more like $12.95. But I was looking specifically for Maris Otter and that's all I found. I'll see if Weyermann is available stateside.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Not replying directly to @kartracer2 , just a couple of thoughts based on what was said.

I know that LME has a bad rep but as of late the mfgs. have much better product I believe.

Many of the ancedotals I have read on "LME darker than expected" seem to involve kit(s) that were bought a number of months before brew day then stored at room temperature (or in a garage).

"Secrets to Keeping your Liquid Extract Fresh" (2016, link) offers this advice on storage:

When properly stored, LMEs will keep for two years, and DMEs have an even longer shelf life. If you purchase an LME and do not intend on using it right away, a safe option is to place it in your freezer. This will keep the integrity of the malt extract without changes in flavor or color. However, you’ll want to keep in mind that the second you pull it out of the freezer you will be exposing it to a drastic temperature change and will want to use it right away.

For evaluating the color (and perhaps the flavor) of LME, BYOs Big Book of Homebrewing (2015) p 19 suggests (paraphrasing):

dissolving 3 oz of LME in a pint of warm water to get an OG 48 wort. This will approximate the color for an 5% ABV beer. Boil time and boil intensity will also add color.​

 

[ncbrewer]

I currently use only Williams LME and like the results. The specialty blends have been very good. As far as darkening, I buy three at a time - I brew the pale beer first and the dark beer last to minimize the effect.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Over the years, styles of malt extract come and go. For example, How to Brew, 4e has recipes that use Munich and Vienna DME.

Here are a pair of links to some additional information about the malts that were used (or may have been used) to make the extract. The links are older - but this may be helpful to those looking to understand older recipes.

• "All Grain Recipe Equivalents to Common Extracts" - 2015 (internet archives link)
• additional malt on Briess extracts - 2015 (internet archives link)

For converting all-grain recipes to extract, How to Brew, 4e has examples. IIRC, some recipe software will also attempt to convert the recipe.

Converting an extract recipe to all grain is also possible - and that might be a later post/discussion.

As always, for a specific brand / style of extract, try to find the makers product information sheets.

 

[D.B.Moody]

That's terrific. I never knew Weyermann produced and marketed LME. Munton's is quite a bit more expensive than Briess here in the U.S., $29.95 for a 3.15# tin whereas Briess is more like $12.95. But I was looking specifically for Maris Otter and that's all I found. I'll see if Weyermann is available stateside.

I just now (2/17) checked Label Peelers for current pricing:
3 lbs Muntons DME $11.17
3 lbs Briess DME $10.92
3.3 lbs Muntons extract $11.77
3.3 lbs Briess extract $9.82

At Rite Brew, which doesn't carry Munton's:
3 lbs Briess DME $10.09
3.3 lbs Briess estract $ 9.19

EDIT 2/18 typos in pricing Muntons

 

[davidabcd]

It's probably been addressed but DME uses 20% less than LME in a recipe which was a consideration for me when getting an actual price per batch.
My main reason for sticking with DME is that my LHBS has the LME in a very big container so that it can be poured for individual sale. So I just don't know how old it is or how it's been handled. As has also been pointed out, DME has more stability.
I have no opinion on whether Briess or Munton DME is better. I have never noticed a difference though there could be.
Lastly, when using LME, I have detected a slightly odd flavor occasionally which I just assumed was from old product.

 

[Brooothru]

I just now (2/17) checked Label Peelers for current pricing:
3 lbs Muntons DME $10.92
3 lbs Briess DME $10.92
3.3 lbs Muntons extract $11.17
3.3 lbs Briess extract $9.82

At Rite Brew, which doesn't carry Munton's:
3 lbs Briess DME $10.09
3.3 lbs Briess estract $ 9.19

Ooops! Just checked the website and my receipt. The price was $19.99 rather that $29.99, for the Munton's Maris Otter LME. The other Munton's offerings were cheaper by a few bucks, but still more expensive than Briess extracts. I got lazy and just did a Google search and found what I needed at Great Fermentations, where I had a discount. Also found some WLP-835x Vault Strain yeast (Andechs) that I couldn't find anywhere, so at least there's that.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I currently use only Williams LME and like the results. The specialty blends have been very good.

The specialty blends appear to offer a combination of a shorter brew day and variety. It's probably time for me to place an order with them.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I tend to prefer Munton's to Briess for most of my brews, but I use both.

Is there a "style" factor to the preference (for example: Brand-X for IPAs, Brand-Y for browns)?

In side-by-side tasting, I notice a difference (neither good or bad) between Briess and Muntons. I haven't brewed enough with Muntons to identify when one might be slightly better than the other.

eta: correct typoz

 

[PCABrewing]

Is there a "style" factor to the preference (for example: Brand-X for IPAs, Brand-Y for browns)?

In side-by-side tasting, I notice a difference (neither good or bad) between Briess and Muntions. I haven't brewed enough with Muntons to identify when one might be slightly better than the other.

I haven't used LME in a long time. The grain bill for their extract would be nice to know.
I only used one that was defined other than Light or Dark in one batch. It was a small 3# container sold by northern brewer (so probably Breiss). It was advertised as an augmentation extract but I can't find my notes for that batch to see what it was called.
I do remember being happy with the end result though.

Edit: Found the empty jug. It was called "SuperStructure" intended as a improvement to IPA's. But still no notes.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"SuperStructure"

Historical reference: "Super Structure Malt Blend for IPA" (2015 via Internet Archives - link).

eta: back in 2016-ish, I "exBEERiment"ed with it. It's not longer availbable, so the results don't matter. As I mentioned in #225, it may be time to give specialty LME a try.

 

[D.B.Moody]

Is there a "style" factor to the preference

It is a style preference. There may be a bias from habit/practice. I do not brew lagers; my beers are all ales, and most are British bitters or pale ales. Most of my recipes have been done with Briess replacing Muntons to no great effect, but it seems silly to not use British malt for a British wannabe. I have not done comparison batches to actually test my preferences.

I brew "Summer Ale" pretty much annually. It's an American Ale and uses Centennial and Cascade hops, Briess amber DME, and US05 yeast. I have done it with Muntons and a couple of British yeasts, but, perhaps from bias, I prefer it with Briess and US05. I think I may be this way in my British recipes too.

Many of my recipes have been done with LME, but I prefer using DME. Using, just trying to use, one pound of LME from its container would be hard in itself, and the storage of the open container would be a problem. I've never actually tried those things. DME is easy in those respects. The last time I used LME was in 2015 for my "Tri-Carb Classic." For a brief time Briess made a rye and barley malt extract and I used it with their wheat and barley extract for the 3 carbs. I'll be brewing that recipe this spring with wheat and barley DME and steeped crystal rye. Some of my recipes were originally based on extracts like Edme, Bierkeller, and John Bull that are no longer available. I now use DME for them.

 

[bwible]

Many of my recipes have been done with LME, but I prefer using DME. Using, just trying to use, one pound of LME from its container would be hard in itself, and the storage of the open container is a problem. I've never actually tried those things.

Right we always planned our recipes around using a whole can whenever we were using LME. The old rule of thumb was liquid extract should be about 38 points per pound, so (2) 3.3 lb cans would give you just about a 1.050 starting gravity for a 5 gallon batch. 6.6 * 38 = 250.8 / 5 = 50.16. In reality it would be a little less than that at the end due to losses because if you start with 5 gallons in the fermenter you’re not going to get 5 gallons of finished beer.

What options are there for extract other than Muntons and Briess? I know there are kits (like Brewers Best) with branded cans, but I have to suspect those are likely from Briess. I also suspect that Briess makes most of the store branded LME sold in the US.

Some of them, I think Coopers, were a 3.5 lb can. Alexanders was another one I used to sell when I had my store and that came in a 4 lb can. You had to pay attention when making your recipes. There was also Laaglander XLT DME which I carried because it was supposed to be the lightest colored DME available at the time.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

When brewing with DME/LME, do you add minerals for flavoring? If so, which mineral additions do you make for flavoring and how much do you add?

background: this is something that I do based on information in books like Brewing Engineering and How to Brew. Numerous recipes in the two "no boil NEIPA" recipes topics also include mineral additions. So the basic information is out there. I'm interested in hearing what others are doing.

 

[bwible]

There are several threads and people here who say you don’t need to add any salts or minerals when brewing with extract. They say you should use distilled water.

Extract is concentrated wort. It started out as wort and had most or all of the water removed. So you are just adding the water back.

Now when you get into wanting to use extract for British beers and the idea of Burtonizing water, maybe you would want to add some Burton water salts in a case like that.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Allow me to modify the question slightly: For those who brew with DME/LME and add minerals (CaCl, CaS04, NaCl, ...), what additions do you make (and perhaps why)?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Extract is concentrated wort. It started out as wort and had most or all of the water removed. So you are just adding the water back.

This is reasonably well known and a good starting point.

The title for this thread is "advanced extract brewing", so it would be nice to have discussions that go beyond the starting point.

There are several threads and people here who say you don’t need to add any salts or minerals when brewing with extract. They say you should use distilled water.

Again, reasonably well known and a good starting point.

There are people here who use spring water when brewing with extract. Some brands of spring water have water reports online (which can be used to understand the mineral content of the water).

How To Brew, 4e (2017) also suggests low mineral spring water. There is a description of 'low mineral' water in Chapter 8 (which could lead to a couple of Brulosophy-like brewing sessions).

For those who missed it (when it was 1st posted here at HomeBrewTalk), AHA Homebrewer of the year (2021) won in category 1B Pale American Lager (BJCP 2015 guidelines). The recipe includes this:

So it [adding minerals to extract recipes] can be done. So I remain interested in what people are currently doing.

As an advanced extract brewer, how do you determine which minerals to add and how much to add?

 

[bwible]

Sorry I didn’t get the gist of the question at first. I am not really an extract brewer. When I use extract its usually to supplement a mash because I want a higher gravity than the amount of grain in my full mash tun is capable of providing. So I’m pretty much only using extract to get up to gravity for barleywines or RIS.

Campden tablets are to remove any chlorine/chloramine precursors - thats another pretty well know thing. 8g of Calcium Chloride is ALOT. (5 gal batch?) CaCl2 provides “fullness” and you’d expect that to be used in something like a lager, blonde ale, or cream ale, etc. All depending on what’s in the water you are starting with. So this makes sense. For lighter and less hoppy beers you want chloride. For beers where you want the hops to shine, I thought you typically wanted more sulfates, or at least a balance as far as chloride and sulfate.

I got my water analyzed by Ward a couple years ago after I moved and was not able to make good hoppy beers at the new place. But lighter less hoppy beers were good. That report showed I have almost 6:1 chloride to sulfate in the municipal water here. So now I always have to add gypsum. So this supports the experience that you can make good lagers and light beers with high chloride but sulfate is important to hoppy beers.

8g does seem high, but without his water report numbers, who knows?

[edited] because I originally read Pale Ale where that says Pale Lager. Sorry about that.

 

[bwible]

That much CaCl2 will also add a whole bunch of calcium, which is good for the yeast.

 

[bwible]

I guess what I’m saying is there’s no “right” answer here. What minerals you add would depend on what’s in the water you are starting with AND what kind of beer you are brewing. If you want to get into water chemistry and treatment (I’m pretty new to doing it myself) your water profiles are going to vary. What you want for an IPA is going to be different from what you want for a lager, and neither of those are probably going to be the same as you’d want for a stout, etc.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Giving this topic a (final?) bump (by repeating the quesiton from Saturday):

When brewing with DME/LME, do you add minerals for flavoring? If so, which mineral additions do you make for flavoring and how much do you add?

 

[kartracer2]

The only water adjustment I do is add a campden tab (Potassium Metabisulfite) when I make up my brew water. I know that's not really what you are looking for but it's still an adjustment. I am on a "rural water system" and I think my water changes depending on what well they are pumping from. Also I think they "shock" the system with chlorine as I can tell that some days I can smell and taste a difference in it. For the most part it is a very drinkable water though. (edit> it leans toward hard I think)
As I am a simple brewer but I think that might be my next "attack" at improving the consistency of my beer. I guess I need to start reading some boring, fact & number filled text's on what I need to do. It really doesn't sound like fun.
Cheers,
Joel B.

 

[ncbrewer]

Extract batches need brewing salts as much as all-grain batches. I checked with Williams Brewing and found that their extract is made without brewing salts - just the municipal water. So I don't count on the extract already having them. I checked with some of my malty beer and some hoppy beer by dosing a glass with very small amounts of CaCl and Gyspum to see what I liked. Now I use the results for all my brews, depending on hoppiness. This only works if your water is consistent. Or theoretically, if you know how it changes, you could maybe calculate how to adjust - but that sounds pretty difficult.