ADVANCED BREWERS SUB GROUP

[bob1852]

adding dry yeast at the end and that's it your probably not a advanced brewer.

I know some professional brewers that use dry yeast at their breweries....

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Here's an awesome thread for many questions you mentioned.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/568046/

 

[Blazinlow86]

Can somebody define “trolling”?

It appears that, at least to some folks, anyone who has a different opinion is a troll. That's not really how it works.

I've been wasting time on the Web for >25 years now. There seems to be a consensus that a troll is someone who is being deliberatively provocative without actually adding anything to a discussion. I see some of that here. I also see, however, people who get all whiny and butthurt when someone makes a rational, thoughtful case for a different method, process, ingredient or piece of equipment, that doesn’t completely agree with the butthurt one’s point of view. Just as there is more than one way to skin the proverbial cat, there are numerous ways to brew beer. Those who are convinced that there can only be One True Way will probably always be disappointed when participating in an open forum. When those folks resort to calling everyone with a different opinion a troll they aren't adding any more to the conversation than those who are deliberately trying to get someone’s goat.

My suggestion to those who are truly dedicated to a particular, narrowly defined, method of brewing is to either grow a thicker skin or to lock themselves away in a private forum where they can all preach to the choir. I don't think those brewers will ever be happy on a large, open forum like HBT.

Trolling in this case is the people that have to hop into any post were someone is discussing upgrading there process to tell them that its a waste of time because they don't do anything but the least possible and make better beer than 99% of the stuff out there. Then it turns into a big debate and eventually gets locked. Unfortunately it seems it's generally the don't do anything people who don't have open minds as they would have to do alot of extra stuff to see first hand the difference. Typically the more advanced brewers have brewed both ways and know first hand that doing the advanced extras makes a big difference. Cheers

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

I'd say if your adding grain to your tap water,adding dry yeast at the end and that's it your probably not a advanced brewer.

I use tap water for my Hard Lemonades since I need higher pH to counteract the acid of the concentrate. I mostly use Safale05 in stouts I'm going to add flavors to since I don't want clashing flavors. Guess that makes me a caveman..

 

[grampamark]

Trolling in this case is the people that have to hop into any post were someone is discussing upgrading there process to tell them that its a waste of time because they don't do anything but the least possible and make better beer than 99% of the stuff out there. Then it turns into a big debate and eventually gets locked. Unfortunately it seems it's generally the don't do anything people who don't have open minds as they would have to do alot of extra stuff to see first hand the difference. Typically the more advanced brewers have brewed both ways and know first hand that doing the advanced extras makes a big difference. Cheers

IOW, they don't agree with you, you don't agree with them. Like I was sayin’...

It cuts both ways.

 

[Blazinlow86]

I use tap water for my Hard Lemonades since I need higher pH to counteract the acid of the concentrate. I mostly use Safale05 in stouts I'm going to add flavors to since I don't want clashing flavors. Guess that makes me a caveman..

Doesn't make you a caveman but possibly not a advanced brewer. Do you believe that you could be making better beer if you wanted too? Are you convinced that doing anything more than you currently are would be a complete waste of time and most definitely wouldn't make a better end product? Would you say your beers better than your favorite store bought? Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

I know some professional brewers that use dry yeast at their breweries....

I think alot of them do. That said if you know any that literally do nothing else post them up so we can avoid them . Cheers

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Doesn't make you a caveman but possibly not a advanced brewer. Do you believe that you could be making better beer if you wanted too? Are you convinced that doing anything more than you currently are would be a complete waste of time and most definitely wouldn't make a better end product? Would you say your beers better than your favorite store bought? Cheers

The important question is about your beers...not mine.

 

[Big Monk]

I think alot of them do. That said if you know any that literally do nothing else post them up so we can avoid them . Cheers

Some of the best beers I've ever made were done with US05, BRY97 and Lallemand Abbaye.

Some of the best beers I've ever made were done with 3787, 1214 and 1762.

It's all relative. I'm not going to shun a brewery that uses Dry yeast.

 

[mongoose33]

It's the trolls that drive me nuts. It seems there's generally 2 types of brewers. The ones that's prefer to do as little as possible and spend the least amount of time/money possible and feel that making excellent beer is easy and the types like yourself mongoose that takes your beer very seriously similar to a professional and know that excellent beer takes alot of effort. It would be nice to have a area were brewers that are always improving there process can discuss improvements without getting trolled. Cheers

Funny story about this. I joined a local homebrew group early in my brewing career, hoping to find sources of wisdom and such that would accelerate my learning. Well. This was about 4 months into my brewing, and I found at the meeting that I knew things nobody, and I mean nobody, apparently had ever heard of. Things like batch sparging, doing things to the water, controlling fermentation temps, and so on. The value of that group quickly became social, not informational.

[And I don't push people much there in terms of knowledge; the LHBS owner organizes this group, and a lot of the people in the group buy kits from him. I don't want to hurt his business, we need him. So I often stand mute when it comes to talking about methods, which is rare enough, as there's a big gulf between where I am, and where most of the rest are.]

This is why HBT has been so important to my growth as a brewer. And I absolutely know where you're coming from--you want people to bounce ideas off of, who will challenge your ideas and make you explain and defend them, who will tell you if you're doing something that isn't likely smart. But people who will do that with an eye toward helping, not being a troll or a know-it-all or a jerk.

I have a very good friend here on HBT who serves that purpose for me. We met here online (!), exchanged a bunch of emails, he pushed me a bit to try some things. We have similar setups in many respects, so that what one does, the other can relate to relatively well. Heck, we went to the BYO Asheville boot camp together, and we live 1000 miles apart. He's my guy who I can bounce things off of, who will be a reality check, who can give me ideas.

He's put me onto a few things that are very....out of the mainstream. I've started using hop shots instead of bittering hops because of him. Bought a conical but I'm doing weird LODO things with it. Partly his fault, too. We talk about fermentation, different yeast ideas, this 'n' that. He's helped me immensely in moving forward.

I suspect greatly this is what you want a subforum to be--at least, it's what I'd want it to be.

*******

<thinking out loud ON> Makes me wonder if a small conversation group might serve that purpose. The problem with groups is the larger they get, the more likely you are to encounter someone who rubs you the wrong way. I suspect that's what ends up happening in many threads, inevitably it seems. <OFF>

And, yes, I suspect you're right about there being two types of brewers, but I don't have bad thoughts about those whose desire to push the envelope ended early on. It's ok if you only want to brew extract recipe kits, people have the right to choose what makes them happy.

[And there's maybe a 3rd type, those who would like to push the envelope but lack the time or resources to do that. My kids are grown; 15 years ago this wouldn't have been possible for me.]

Problem for you (and me, and some others) is that we want to be out on the bleeding edge, working without a net, trying new ideas because our knowledge of brewing suggests it might work. And even if it doesn't work, we'll have enjoyed the exploration very much.

Sadly, I don't think there's a way you can make this happen on HBT. Those things evolve organically. Yeah, you'll have the less-dedicated types in threads where you may not want their "input," but that's probably the price of getting the others' input you do want.

 

[ApolloSimcoe]

Caveman Up!!

 

[mongoose33]

Can somebody define “trolling”?

Here's a definition from Wiki that isn't bad, IMO:

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.

It appears that, at least to some folks, anyone who has a different opinion is a troll. That's not really how it works.

It isn't so much a difference of opinion as it is the way in which the disagreement is effected.

If you want an example here on HBT, look at some of the reactions people have to Low Oxygen brewing (LODO). You'll have people offering up opinions on it who have A) never tried it, and B) never had a beer done with that method.

And yet, they're in those threads punching. They don't add much, other than discord.

My suggestion to those who are truly dedicated to a particular, narrowly defined, method of brewing is to either grow a thicker skin or to lock themselves away in a private forum where they can all preach to the choir. I don't think those brewers will ever be happy on a large, open forum like HBT.

Yeah; the internet is what it is. The value in its unregulated nature is also its cost, and one must take the bad with the good. The more censorship, the less of value there is.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Some of the best beers I've ever made were done with US05, BRY97 and Lallemand Abbaye.

Some of the best beers I've ever made were done with 3787, 1214 and 1762.

It's all relative. I'm not going to shun a brewery that uses Dry yeast.

Of course not. Theres nothing wrong with dry yeast. If you reread what I posted I said if your adding grain to tap water and adding dry yeast and doing literally NOTHING else your probably not a advanced brewer. Nothing meaning following NONE of the best case procedures. No paying attention to strike temps, no monitoring ph, no aerating wort, no ferm temp control, no 02 prevention cold side etc. Cheers

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Of course not. Theres nothing wrong with dry yeast. If you reread what I posted I said if your adding grain to tap water and adding dry yeast and doing literally NOTHING else your probably not a advanced brewer. Nothing meaning following NONE of the best case procedures. No paying attention to strike temps, no monitoring ph, no aerating wort, no ferm temp control, no 02 prevention cold side etc. Cheers

These aren't advanced brewing techniques. Those are factors that make better beer. When I hear advanced brewing techniques it more along the lines of pro equipment to utilize hop oil extraction (recirculation loops) or trying to ferment 5000 gallons as opposed to 5.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

And unless I've missed somthing, you're just ranting. As I've posted, do you have a specific question?

 

[Blazinlow86]

Funny story about this. I joined a local homebrew group early in my brewing career, hoping to find sources of wisdom and such that would accelerate my learning. Well. This was about 4 months into my brewing, and I found at the meeting that I knew things nobody, and I mean nobody, apparently had ever heard of. Things like batch sparging, doing things to the water, controlling fermentation temps, and so on. The value of that group quickly became social, not informational.

[And I don't push people much there in terms of knowledge; the LHBS owner organizes this group, and a lot of the people in the group buy kits from him. I don't want to hurt his business, we need him. So I often stand mute when it comes to talking about methods, which is rare enough, as there's a big gulf between where I am, and where most of the rest are.]

This is why HBT has been so important to my growth as a brewer. And I absolutely know where you're coming from--you want people to bounce ideas off of, who will challenge your ideas and make you explain and defend them, who will tell you if you're doing something that isn't likely smart. But people who will do that with an eye toward helping, not being a troll or a know-it-all or a jerk.

I have a very good friend here on HBT who serves that purpose for me. We met here online (!), exchanged a bunch of emails, he pushed me a bit to try some things. We have similar setups in many respects, so that what one does, the other can relate to relatively well. Heck, we went to the BYO Asheville boot camp together, and we live 1000 miles apart. He's my guy who I can bounce things off of, who will be a reality check, who can give me ideas.

He's put me onto a few things that are very....out of the mainstream. I've started using hop shots instead of bittering hops because of him. Bought a conical but I'm doing weird LODO things with it. Partly his fault, too. We talk about fermentation, different yeast ideas, this 'n' that. He's helped me immensely in moving forward.

I suspect greatly this is what you want a subforum to be--at least, it's what I'd want it to be.

*******

<thinking out loud ON> Makes me wonder if a small conversation group might serve that purpose. The problem with groups is the larger they get, the more likely you are to encounter someone who rubs you the wrong way. I suspect that's what ends up happening in many threads, inevitably it seems. <OFF>

And, yes, I suspect you're right about there being two types of brewers, but I don't have bad thoughts about those whose desire to push the envelope ended early on. It's ok if you only want to brew extract recipe kits, people have the right to choose what makes them happy.

[And there's maybe a 3rd type, those who would like to push the envelope but lack the time or resources to do that. My kids are grown; 15 years ago this wouldn't have been possible for me.]

Problem for you (and me, and some others) is that we want to be out on the bleeding edge, working without a net, trying new ideas because our knowledge of brewing suggests it might work. And even if it doesn't work, we'll have enjoyed the exploration very much.

Sadly, I don't think there's a way you can make this happen on HBT. Those things evolve organically. Yeah, you'll have the less-dedicated types in threads where you may not want their "input," but that's probably the price of getting the others' input you do want.

You've explained my feeling better than I did lol. I often have problems typing out what I'm thinking properly. I just wish there was a more specific place for people that feel they can always improve there's beers to discuss without input from the people on the other side of the fence derailing it. Cheers

 

[mongoose33]

These aren't advanced brewing techniques. Those are factors that make better beer. When I hear advanced brewing techniques it more along the lines of pro equipment to utilize hop oil extraction (recirculation loops) or trying to ferment 5000 gallons as opposed to 5.

This is where we get into definitional issues. Here's a link to Fermentis Safale HA-18 yeast. They sell it in two sizes: 11 grams, and 500 (!) grams. If my math is correct, that's enough for about 8 barrels of beer.

https://fermentis.com/en/fermentation-solutions/you-create-beer/safale-ha-18/

There are commercial breweries that are using dry yeast. Whether that means they're advanced, regressed, or simply trying to brew good, repeatable beer, I don't know.

But dry yeast, by itself, is not necessarily a sign of homebrew nor antithetical to a professional operation.

I suspect this is much like trying to define what "organic" is. Everybody has their own definition.

 

[Blazinlow86]

Here's a definition from Wiki that isn't bad, IMO:

In Internet slang, a troll is a person who starts quarrels or upsets people on the Internet to distract and sow discord by posting inflammatory and digressive,[1] extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community (such as a newsgroup, forum, chat room, or blog) with the intent of provoking readers into displaying emotional responses[2] and normalizing tangential discussion,[3] whether for the troll's amusement or a specific gain.



It isn't so much a difference of opinion as it is the way in which the disagreement is effected.

If you want an example here on HBT, look at some of the reactions people have to Low Oxygen brewing (LODO). You'll have people offering up opinions on it who have A) never tried it, and B) never had a beer done with that method.

And yet, they're in those threads punching. They don't add much, other than discord.



Yeah; the internet is what it is. The value in its unregulated nature is also its cost, and one must take the bad with the good. The more censorship, the less of value there is.

Another great example . I don't do lodo and my beers come out great however im also certain that using lodo techniques would improve my beers at least 1% and therefore will try at some point. The brewers I'm refering to will say it's a complete waste of time because there already making the best beer possible without it and have never even tried it. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

And unless I've missed somthing, you're just ranting. As I've posted, do you have a specific question?

I've lost you. You said something about being a caveman because you use dry yeast. I assumed you were referring to one of my posts and if you were you completely missed the point. I have no questions for you. If anything this is just showings why I wanted a seperate sub forum to discuss best case practice without getting off track as we currently are. Cheers

 

[Andrew Hodgson]

Mama always said dry yeast is the debil.

 

[lump42]

I've lost you. You said something about being a caveman because you use dry yeast. I assumed you were referring to one of my posts and if you were you completely missed the point. I have no questions for you. If anything this is just showings why I wanted a seperate sub forum to discuss best case practice without getting off track as we currently are. Cheers

Unless you are going to restrict access to this hypothetical new sub forum, how are you going to keep the people you don't like from making comments that you deem off topic. Once you start restricting the access, it is only a short step to becoming an echo chamber.

 

[McKnuckle]

I’d settle for a sub-forum where people know the difference between your and you’re, and there and their and they’re. But that’s not likely either!

 

[Blazinlow86]

Unless you are going to restrict access to this hypothetical new sub forum, how are you going to keep the people you don't like from making comments that you deem off topic. Once you start restricting the access, it is only a short step to becoming an echo chamber.

I don't think it needs to be restricted. Maybe a better name would be "best case practices" or something like that. I don't go into the bottling or extract forums because I don't do that therefore my opinions would be largely irrelevant. Same thing would hopefully happen with a new best case practices forum. If your not interested in following the best case processes you don't need to go into it and add abunch of irrelevant info cluttering up a thread or troll people for taking it more seriously than you may. Hopefully that makes more sense. Cheers

 

[Blazinlow86]

I’d settle for a sub-forum where people know the difference between your and you’re, and there and their and they’re. But that’s not likely either!

I'd be even happier with a android device that doesn't auto correct every other word incorrectly lol. Half the stuff I post on my phone I have to edit when I get home on the desktop. Cheers

 

[Yooper]

It's not obvious trolling all the time. Maybe a better example is someone asking about advancing there brewing by doing water adjustments etc and then getting 25 responses along the lines of "you don't need to do any of that I don't and my beers and its excellent" or " sure if you like wasting your time" or "brulosophy already debunked everything" etc. It would just be nice to have a place were if you believe you can always be improving your process it can be discussed without getting detailed by those types of comments. Cheers

That's true- we tend to monitor the brew science forum more closely for those types of posts because anecdotal evidence of "everyone loves my free beer" doesn't equate with "my beer is great".

Trolling in this case is the people that have to hop into any post were someone is discussing upgrading there process to tell them that its a waste of time because they don't do anything but the least possible and make better beer than 99% of the stuff out there. Then it turns into a big debate and eventually gets locked. Unfortunately it seems it's generally the don't do anything people who don't have open minds as they would have to do alot of extra stuff to see first hand the difference. Typically the more advanced brewers have brewed both ways and know first hand that doing the advanced extras makes a big difference. Cheers

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It would be nice to have a area were brewers that are always improving there process can discuss improvements

Personally, I think there would be great value in a forum like this, perhaps titled "Striving To Make Better Beer", as long as ...

we tend to monitor the brew science forum more closely

... the new forum would be closely monitored (like brewing science) so it remained on topic.

 

[applescrap]

Heres a pro tip. Dont talk about pro tips unless you are a pro with pro gear. Call your tips something else, like confirmation bias tips.

 

[6Tap]

I just like to drink beer and read the posts on HBT from y’all!!

There are always many points of views and something for me to learn. I enjoy reading and seeing the humor to the serious and technical comments.

Beginners to Advanced, Cheers to u all! [emoji482]

 

[applescrap]

Personally, I think there would be great value in a forum like this, perhaps titled "Striving To Make Better Beer", as long as ...



... the new forum would be closely monitored (like brewing science) so it remained on topic.

It's pretty easy to make better beer. Use better water and better ingredients. No need to thank me, just spreading the word a little at a time.

 

[Blazinlow86]

It's pretty easy to make better beer. Use better water and better ingredients. No need to thank me, just spreading the word a little at a time.

What about process? Cheers