Adjusted pH with phophoric acid, ruined beer!

[ajdelange]

I'm thinking maybe it's stronger than 85%, or maybe processed incorrectly to give some nasty off flavors?

No, that's about as strong as it gets. Stronger than that and it is hard to handle (too syrupy or solid).

Not really sure. The lactic I got is food grade, 88%. Also John Kimmich advised that I ditch the phosphoric and use lactic like he does.

There are a lot of people here, and elsewhere in life, that think their way of doing things is the only way to do things. Many of them are entirely well meaning and only want to share their success with you but it isn't always the case that what's good for them is good for you. Most commercial brewers in the US that use acid use phosphoric because it is less flavor active and since you clearly don't like the taste of an acidic beer it should be the better choice for you. But the taste of lactic acid is actually rather pleasant being the basis for many foods and beers so you should definitely try it too but I'd suggest getting things undercontrol with one acid before switching to another. Your problem is not caused by the choice of acid.

John also suggests brewing the same batch over and over until you nail it.

Now that is good advice from which anyone will benefit.

After 2 or 3 batches with the same malt bill (assuming source water doesn't change)...

If your water is variable you should adopt the approach of acidifying the water alone to the desired mash pH....

.. you should be able to nail a 5.2 mash pH.

...which should be higher than this say 5.4 - 5.6 (at room temperature - when we speak of mash pH we are always referring to room temperature though not all the literature does this). In this way it doesn't matter if the water changes or not. It's alkalinity (post treatment) is always the same: 0. Having done this all you need to do is determine the acid requirement of the malt. Make mini mashes with deionized (RO will do) water using various amounts of acid. Use warmed water and hold the mini mashes at dough in temperture for about 20 minutes before making a pH reading. Find the correct acid addition by interpolating between two additions, one of which gave a mash pH that was too high and one that gave a mash pH that was too low. Scale to the full brew length. Treat the water to mash pH and then add the acid you need for the malt. Should get you pretty close.

 

[gifty74]

Ok, so just received my Ward Labs report. Here are the specifics:

 

[ajdelange]

Rule of thumb is that you need acid to the extent of approximately 90% of the alkalinity or, in this case 0.9*84/50 = 1.5 mEq/L, in order to zero out the alkalinity of the water. For 85% phosphoric acid that's about 1.5/14.8 mL/L.

 

[gifty74]

That sounds about right. That's about 2.25ml for my 6 gal mash water. Beersmith is estimating right about the same, to get a drop from 5.7 to 5.5. (At room temp). Also just ordered a Milwakee pH meter with temp probe so will be upping the game a little. does anyone know if these can be used at mash temp? Or just cool it down to 100F and check it there?

 

[hotwatermusic]

Cool it down. Aim for room temp. I take a small sample in a frozen shot glass. 5 minute thing. I use one, and like it. It will definitely last longer if you treat it good. If it has temp correction, just get it within range and you can trust it. Buy the buffers. You don't need to calibrate every time but do so for a while until you see for yourself how much drift you get. You can always check the 7.01 solution before every brew and if it gives that reading you know it's pretty much locked in.

 

[ajdelange]

You DO need to calibrate it every time! Checking the pH 7 buffer only checks offset; it does not check slope If you do a check in both buffers and it is spot on (don't forget that the buffers' actual pHs change with temperature) then you do not need to repeat the calibration but this is an extremely rare event.

 

[hotwatermusic]

yup. he's right. 100%. I just thought maybe the amount of effort was a deterrent because you wanted to test at mash temps. I have tested before calibrating and after and have generally found the numbers to be close to identical, + or - .03. Close enough for me, I can't taste the difference, but that also takes into account that I brew fairly often and thus was calibrating often. The calibration solutions are cheap and go a long way, there is no reason to skimp. I can be lazy but I shouldn't encourage others to be. +1 on calibrating every brew day.

 

[gifty74]

Ok. MV120 is to be delivered by noon, and the brew session will be 'on' by 5pm. Going to back off on the phosphoric and dose 2.5ml (85%) in my 6.25gal mash water. Dough in, wait 15 min, and check pH. Also reducing my gypsum dose from 17g to 10g. Basically exact same malt bill, tweaking the hops just a little. Hope for better results. Starter is made with washed 2nd gen of my initial Conan yeast pitch, so they should be healthy and ready to go. I'm determined to nail this style (DIPA)!!

 

[gifty74]

Ok, so here's the water profile I'm going with for the DIPA I'm brewing this evening. Have my Ward Labs water report numbers in as the source water with the only adjustment being the 10g of gypsum. Anyone have any comments?

 

[gifty74]

Well, didn't exactly go to plan...again. Got the new pH meter just before the session. Calibrated it up with the 7.01 and then 4.01 solution so it was ready to go. Pre-dosed my 6.5 gal mash water with 2.5ml of phosphoric acid (guess this was a mistake) and 10g of gypsum. Doughed in, stirred really well for a few minutes, then let it sit for 15 min. Took a sample and cooled it down to 77F (25C), what Milwaukee recommends for ideal measurement. pH was 5.02!! WTH! So really not sure what happened here.

Guess I didn't need any acid at all, but EZ water calculator both estimated the starting pH to be 5.6, which was exactly what it was the last time I brewed. I did pull the water last night, and let it sit overnight in the garage in the HLT with the lid on. Does this rid it of all alkalinity? The last batch with this same water and grain bill had a 5.7 starting pH. All of the calculators said to get down to 5.4-5.5 that I'd need more than 3ml of phosphoric acid so I went light on it figuring I could add more if needed.

Looking in Beersmith (which estimates pretty close to the brewing spreadsheets and it's all in one program, simpler) it estimates my starting mash pH to be 5.55. To reduce from 5.55 to 5.4 it shows 3.3ml of 85% phosphoric acid. I added 2.5. How in the heck did I get all the way down to 5!!?? I thought maybe the meter was off (even though I had just calibrated it) but it was spot on the 4.01 buffer solution after checking again. Interesting tidbit, my Ward Labs report showed a pH of my water at 7.8. When I checked my water right before brewing I was getting right around 7-7.06. Not sure why Ward and my testing was so different. Maybe pH drops if the water is left out overnight??

Any thoughts here? The final pH of the wort into the fermenter is 5.12. Went up a little but still not what it should be. The wort does not taste astringent or acidic, but it's so sweet it's hard to tell. I overshot my gravity too by a bit. Had better than expected efficiency. Just when I thought I was getting pH figured out...

 

[hotwatermusic]

Could you possibly have source water variation?

 

[gifty74]

Well, there are two possible sources, but I've been told multiple times that my water only comes from the one. I just got my Ward Labs result on Fri, confirming the source. The other source is much harder, and more alkaline, so if anything that would've resulted in a higher pH. Stumped for sure.

 

[gifty74]

So maybe this happened: I forgot that my calibration solutions are stored in my garage, and on brew day the temp was around 60F. I forgot to check the temp of the probe when it was in the calibration solutions, but it was probably around 15C (60F). So I calibrated to those 'cool' solutions. Would this have thrown off the calibration & thus my wort pH measurement? I know pH rises as temperature goes up, but I thought this meter (MW102) corrects for that with the temp probe? Help me understand. Thanks.

 

[hotwatermusic]

I have the same. The temp correction should account for any discrepancies. I'm at a loss myself. The difference in pH between your brewing water and the lab report is the only thing I wonder about. Still pH doesn't tell us everything about the buffers in the water. Head scratcher for sure.

 

[gifty74]

The comparison of water reports...

 

[gifty74]

So I brewed up my 2nd attempt this past weekend, in my attempt to get a nice big & bold DIPA that I can brew consistently and that I prefer over almost anything I can buy. I backed off the gypsum from 17g to 10g, and the phosphoric acid pre-dosing from my previous batch of 5ml to 2.5ml. pH was low, as in 5.01 low, after dough-in. So not sure what happened there. Got a new pH meter (a good Milwaukee one) and calibrated it and everything. OG was 1.086 and FG was 1.014 (9.5% abv) with 2nd gen Conan yeast. They did a good job and brought it down. Final pH was 4.2.

Granted last night was only 2 weeks since pitching the yeast, but I had it in the keg and roll carbonated it so I tasted it. Has this same characteristic resin'y flavor to it. Just not real clean, seems to linger on the tongue, and has almost a sourness to it. I'm trying to figure out what the heck this flavor is!! I changed quite a few things this time from the last, but that same flavor is there that I do not prefer (albeit slightly less). Some things I didn't change: 1.) Used Citra hops in both whirlpool & dry hop, 2.) Although less, used phosphoric acid, 3.) Used Conan yeast, 4.) Did a fairly long hop stand at 170°F for 30 min., 5.) Dry hopped for 6 days. I did have much better fermentation temp control this time, in the mid 60s, up to near 70 near end of ferm. I'm dying to know if its the Citra hops (maybe?) that are giving me this resin'y hop flavor overload that I'm just not liking, or maybe because this flavor is less in this batch from the prior, it's the phosphoric acid? Any thoughts?

 

[Homercidal]

It's gotta be the hops! Send them to me and I will alleviate your problem for you!

 

[Homercidal]

Seriously, though. Have you thought about sending a few bottles out to other people to taste? I'd be a willing recipient. I can't find anything in your process or ingredients at this point that would make me think something unusual is going on. (Other than the pH being a bit lower than you expected, but I doubt it's enough to cause a major issue.)

 

[Oldskewl]

Could it be tannins? Astringency?

 

[gifty74]

Seriously, though. Have you thought about sending a few bottles out to other people to taste? I'd be a willing recipient. I can't find anything in your process or ingredients at this point that would make me think something unusual is going on. (Other than the pH being a bit lower than you expected, but I doubt it's enough to cause a major issue.)

That would be awesome! Hoping someone will just be able to pick it out and end this madness. I think it's narrowing down to one of 3 things: 1.) I'm not as big of a fan of whirlpool hopping as most say you should be. Both batches (and my last 5 or so IPAs) have had a substantial amount of IBUs from the whirlpool. 2.) Centennial hops (although my buddy says it can't be that as it's in so many beers and long loved) 3.)I don't like Citra as much as I'm supposed to. Both batches used copious amounts in whirlpool and dry hop. 4.) 2.5ml of phosphoric acid is still enough to make it noticeable.

I'd be glad to send you a bottle though. I'll PM you for your info.

 

[Oldskewl]

That would be awesome! Hoping someone will just be able to pick it out and end this madness. I think it's narrowing down to one of 3 things: 1.) I'm not as big of a fan of whirlpool hopping as most say you should be. Both batches (and my last 5 or so IPAs) have had a substantial amount of IBUs from the whirlpool. 2.) Centennial hops (although my buddy says it can't be that as it's in so many beers and long loved) 3.)I don't like Citra as much as I'm supposed to. Both batches used copious amounts in whirlpool and dry hop. 4.) 2.5ml of phosphoric acid is still enough to make it noticeable.

I'd be glad to send you a bottle though. I'll PM you for your info.

Funny you mention Centennial. I just brewed a Bells two hearted clone which uses all Centennial. I am getting the same lingering bitterness. Trying to pinpoint the issue myself.

 

[gifty74]

Well then let's all trade up and see if we can make some parallel comparisons.

 

[Homercidal]

Centennial and Citra both have lots of citrus character. I highly doubt 2.5ml is enough Phos to be noticeable unless you were EXTREMELY sensitive to it. I don't care for tart beers (or most things in general) and I love both Centennial and Citra. They may be my favorite hops, and especially in IPAs.

In any case, I do think you should continue working with your pH and find a process that gets your pH where you want them to be on brewday. I have personally started using RO water from the store for all pale beers, and lately have been passing up the RO machine at the local grocery in favor of jugs. I'm merely experimenting with the possibility that the machines aren't actually getting rid of all of the chloramine in the water. Although I have also used 1/2 a campden tab in beers made with that machine water, I want to compare flavor with water that is supposed to be Chloramine free.

I think most of my beers have been good in the phenol department, it never hurts to try different things and see if there are improvements that can be made. In your case, the unexpected low pH might be something to continue to work on regardless of the tart flavor you say you taste. And it may just have something to do with it still.

PM me and I can help you ship a beer or two. I know a few guys who would be eager to taste with me and give feedback. We all taste things differently.