Adjuncts, starches, and sour beer.

[dantheman13]

I steeped some oats in my boil; here is the beer 2 weeks after pitching ECY20. It looks like orange juice with pulp! I have a feeling this is going to take a couple of years to get it where I want it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzBjLIJqdyg

 

[dantheman13]

Tasting my ECY20 beer with oats steeped in the boil at a month and a half: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o158aTnuPKM&list=PLibE2BjPG_8GdGT0mC9pXapWtbgr6_UfJ

Surprisingly, the beer doesn't taste much more turbid than a normal Hef, even at this early age.

 

[chad_]

What were you trying to accomplish or get out of tasting that beer so young and early?

 

[dantheman13]

What were you trying to accomplish or get out of tasting that beer so young and early?

Nothing more than learning really, and as a comparison note between another young sour beer (which was way more sour than this one at 2.5 months). For example, I am now curious if this beer will get more sour over time as sometimes with other blends they never get very sour on the first use. As they tell new homebrewers, taste everything along the way.

 

[mavandeh]

TL;DR up front: Would adding a porridge made with a good source of starch, say rice flour, and adding to the secondary after cooling provide some starch without adding much more than staling accelerators (oxygen)?

I'm in a rather specific situation and this is one of the things I've considered to improve a particular beer I am working on.

Problem:
I've added cantaloupe to the secondary of a saison I had intended to be clean. I guess I didn't use enough sorbate in the fruit because now I have a great band-aid profile from some wild stuff.

My plan to fix:
I'd like to pitch some brett to eat up some of the phenolic character and leave some farmhouse in its place, I've heard that B. bruxellensis can do this. In order to ensure that I have enough starch left over, I have considered making a pasteurized starch porridge and adding a small amount of that to give the Brett some food to munch on.

Does it sound sane? Should I just pitch brett without the porridge?

 

[metic]

Brettanomyces doesn't actually need much in the way of starches/sugars to make a flavour contribution. The ideas in this thread were more directed towards leaving food for lactic-acid producing bacteria, which do need food to do their thing. In fact, this is pure speculation, but I wonder if by adding extra starch along with the brett you might make it less likely to work on whatever compounds are giving you off-flavours.

 

[sweetcell]

Brettanomyces doesn't actually need much in the way of starches/sugars to make a flavour contribution. The ideas in this thread were more directed towards leaving food for lactic-acid producing bacteria, which do need food to do their thing. In fact, this is pure speculation, but I wonder if by adding extra starch along with the brett you might make it less likely to work on whatever compounds are giving you off-flavours.

+1. you might even end up feeding whatever nasties you have in there.

don't worry about feeding the brett, just pitch it. there is plenty in there for the brett to eat, including the cantaloupe.

 

[c0bra]

So did we reach any idea on the best practice for what percent of the total grist the steeped unmalted adjuncts can be? I've seen some pretty wildly varying amounts.

 

[TheZymurgist]

I'm curious too. Any samples of the beers that have been brewed?

 

[dantheman13]

I'm curious too. Any samples of the beers that have been brewed?

I'll video up a tasting in the next week or two. Now is a good time to decide if I want to add more oak to it anyway. Cheers!

 

[TAK]

Subscribed. I'm interested to hear feedback from the beers that where brewed.

 

[jrfehon]

I brewed two 5G sour batches this summer and added 1TBS of wheat flour to each batch at the beginning of the 90 minute boil. I also fermented each batch for a month in a bucket and then transferred into glass carboys onto used sour yeast cakes. I know this thread consists of experimental techniques. What I'm wondering is does anyone have feedback on using wheat flour and when to add it in the boil, beginning vs. end? If starch was present in the wort during primary fermentation, would it have dropped out of suspension before I transferred to the secondary?

 

[badlee]

I am under the impression that it is a last 15 minute addition.
One would think that if it was added at the start,then it would just drop out?

 

[dantheman13]

My update on steeping .5 lbs of oats in the beginning of the boil. The beer is 9 months old:

http://tinyurl.com/l437y7f

In short, the beer tastes really good, is pretty sour, but I can't determine what the starches contributed to the beer!

 

[messiah]

A lot of information on this thread about adding starches in the boil.

The gist of adding them seems to be for bugs to make lactic acid. However, some posts say brets can breakdown starches as well, and will do it faster. Would there then be benefits of adding some boiled flour or something similar to add starches several months after you pitched?

Also, has anyone done a comparison? Turbid mash vs Adding starches in other ways vs just using something like malted or torrified wheat in a normal mash?

I pitched some ECY20 yesterday on a 7lb pils and 5lbs torrified wheat wort. I am thinking of leaving it as is, but maybe adding starches months down the road if I want more lactic acid.

 

[mnick12]

A lot of information on this thread about adding starches in the boil.

The gist of adding them seems to be for bugs to make lactic acid. However, some posts say brets can breakdown starches as well, and will do it faster. Would there then be benefits of adding some boiled flour or something similar to add starches several months after you pitched?

Also, has anyone done a comparison? Turbid mash vs Adding starches in other ways vs just using something like malted or torrified wheat in a normal mash?

I pitched some ECY20 yesterday on a 7lb pils and 5lbs torrified wheat wort. I am thinking of leaving it as is, but maybe adding starches months down the road if I want more lactic acid.

I would hold off on trying to make anything with ecy20 more sour.

I brewed a sour with it almost a year and half ago, it included flaked rye, flaked week I gave it a taste and its really good! More importantly the pH of the uncarbonated beer is 2.6! Which is really freaking acidic for a flat beer.

 

[TheZymurgist]

Also, has anyone done a comparison? Turbid mash vs Adding starches in other ways vs just using something like malted or torrified wheat in a normal mash?

Check this guy out:

http://americanlambic.blogspot.com/

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

I would hold off on trying to make anything with ecy20 more sour.

I brewed a sour with it almost a year and half ago, it included flaked rye, flaked week I gave it a taste and its really good! More importantly the pH of the uncarbonated beer is 2.6! Which is really freaking acidic for a flat beer.

are you sure you measured that right? 2.6 ph sounds undrinkable!

 

[inflictor-of-grimness]

Double post. Mobile app acting up.

 

[mnick12]

are you sure you measured that right? 2.6 ph sounds undrinkable!

Ya I have a pretty decent pH meter, so I am confident in that reading. As far as sourness goes it is very tart, but good. This is definatly going to be blended with something more mild when I decide to bottle.

A contributing factor, I believe, is the tempurature. I live in AZ and it is always warm here, which I think favored bacterial activity.

 

[Manuel Julian Rodríguez]

what about adding corn starch to the wort? how could it turn out? would it be beneficial? or just a bad idea?