Adhering to style...how important is it, and when do you go Cat 23?

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Cheesefood

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Hoping to get some expert advice here.

The Weizen that I brewed a while back (which I'm tentatively calling 'The Imperial Weizenhammer') has complexities the likes of which I can't even explain. It's full of maple, fruit, malt and caramel flavors all out of just grain and hops. I'd really like to get some professional opinions on it.

Here's the thing: how do I enter it? At 10.5%+ abv, it's too big for the wheat categories. I don't know how to categorize it, so should I just for Cat 23 (Specialty)? Seems like that's an unfair category since just about anything out of style goes there. I'd need to hope that the judge likes big wheat beers over anything else.

So if I enter it, how should I categorize it? How heavily will I get docked for it being out of range on OG?
 
It doesn't fit as a weizenbock?

15C. Weizenbock
Aroma: Rich, bock-like melanoidins and bready malt combined with a powerful aroma of dark fruit (plums, prunes, raisins or grapes). Moderate to strong phenols (most commonly vanilla and/or clove) add complexity, and some banana esters may also be present. A moderate aroma of alcohol is common, although never solventy. No hop aroma, diacetyl or DMS.

Appearance: Dark amber to dark, ruby brown in color. A very thick, moussy, long-lasting light tan head is characteristic. The high protein content of wheat impairs clarity in this traditionally unfiltered style, although the level of haze is somewhat variable. The suspended yeast sediment (which should be roused before drinking) also contributes to the cloudiness.

Flavor: A complex marriage of rich, bock-like melanoidins, dark fruit, spicy clove-like phenols, light banana and/or vanilla, and a moderate wheat flavor. The malty, bready flavor of wheat is further enhanced by the copious use of Munich and/or Vienna malts. May have a slightly sweet palate, and a light chocolate character is sometimes found (although a roasted character is inappropriate). A faintly tart character may optionally be present. Hop flavor is absent, and hop bitterness is low. The wheat, malt, and yeast character dominate the palate, and the alcohol helps balance the finish. Well-aged examples may show some sherry-like oxidation as a point of complexity. No diacetyl or DMS.

Mouthfeel: Medium-full to full body. A creamy sensation is typical, as is the warming sensation of substantial alcohol content. The presence of Munich and/or Vienna malts also provide an additional sense of richness and fullness. Moderate to high carbonation. Never hot or solventy.
Overall Impression: A strong, malty, fruity, wheat-based ale combining the best flavors of a dunkelweizen and the rich strength and body of a bock.
History: Aventinus, the world’s oldest top-fermented wheat doppelbock, was created in 1907 at the Weisse Brauhaus in Munich using the ‘Méthode Champenoise’ with fresh yeast sediment on the bottom. It was Schneider’s creative response to bottom-fermenting doppelbocks that developed a strong following during these times.

Comments: A dunkel-weizen beer brewed to bock or doppelbock strength. Now also made in the Eisbock style as a specialty beer. Bottles may be gently rolled or swirled prior to serving to rouse the yeast.

Ingredients: A high percentage of malted wheat is used (by German law must be at least 50%, although it may contain up to 70%), with the remainder being Munich- and/or Vienna-type barley malts. A traditional decoction mash gives the appropriate body without cloying sweetness. Weizen ale yeasts produce the typical spicy and fruity character. Too warm or too cold fermentation will cause the phenols and esters to be out of balance and may create off-flavors. A small amount of noble hops are used only for bitterness.

Vital Statistics:
OG: 1.064 – 1.080+
IBUs: 15 – 30
FG: 1.015 – 1.022
SRM: 12 – 25
ABV: 6.5 – 8.0%+

Commercial Examples: Schneider Aventinus, Schneider Aventinus Eisbock, Erdinger Pikantus, Mahr’s Der Weisse Bock, Pyramid Weizenbock, DeGroen’s Weizenbock

How dark is it? That might be the only place you would get nailed. Doesn't seem like weizenbock really has an upper limit as far as OG/alcohol %.
 
Yeah, what Bird said. While "bocks" are usually lagers, it's not absolute to the point of excluding ales from the style. Aventinus, called a "Wheat Doppelbock" by Schneider, is an ale, brewed with wheat beer yeast, of bock strength.

The only thing I can think of that might exclude it (technically) is the SRM...I mean, if you made something like Bell's 8000, an imperial Wit, then it might be too light to be a Weizenbock. But otherwise, I'm guessing it'd hit that category just fine. On the high side, to be sure, but so is Aventinus Eisbock!
 
Cheesefood said:

Nope.

See where they list the OG as 1.080+? And see where the list Aventinus Eisbock as a commercial example of the style?

Aventinus Eisbock has an OG of 1.117 and an ABV of 12%.

They leave the OG ceiling open-ended specifically to catch Eisbocks and like, I believe. Yours hits that category just as much as a wheat Eisbock.
 
the_bird said:
It doesn't fit as a weizenbock?

How dark is it? That might be the only place you would get nailed. Doesn't seem like weizenbock really has an upper limit as far as OG/alcohol %.

Exactly what I was thinking.
 
I love Wiezenbocks, and if this is an example of such (which you seem to indicate in the recipe post that it's a Wiezenbock), I think you should do pretty well. You may get a slight hit for being 1 pt over final gravity, but hell...you should be able to make it again and get down that one extra point.

I'd definately enter it in that category and see how it places. If it goes bad, you can always enter it again in Specialty and see if it's better received there, but I think you'd be fine where it is.
 
See, there are a lot of "You May" and "I Think" in your excellent replies, but I'd like to know "For Sure".
 
Well, we haven't TRIED it! ;)

I think you're better off shooting for Weizenbock versus "Other"; that's where all the really offbeat stuff lands, and it sounds to me like you've got a really legitimate example of a big wheat beer without a lot of bullsh*t to it.

Are the competitions structured so you can drop a wee bit extra coin and have it judged in BOTH categories?

Oh, and if you're looking for a "For Sure" answer, you ain't gonna get it.... I don't have personal experience with competition, in large part because I have heard OVER AND OVER AND OVER again how arbitrary the judging standards tend to be.

Another thought; does the beer TASTE really alcoholic? Do you have to disclose the OG or ABV on the entry form? Besides, I really think you're missing the significance of the "+" on the style guidelines for the weizenbock category; there IS NO upper limit....
 
Unless someone has made that recipe already and entered it into a comp to see how it does, only you can tell us where it goes after is goes well or bombs miserably. :)

Just do it!
 
the_bird said:
Well, we haven't TRIED it! ;)

I think you're better off shooting for Weizenbock versus "Other"; that's where all the really offbeat stuff lands, and it sounds to me like you've got a really legitimate example of a big wheat beer without a lot of bullsh*t to it.

Are the competitions structured so you can drop a wee bit extra coin and have it judged in BOTH categories?

Oh, and if you're looking for a "For Sure" answer, you ain't gonna get it.... I don't have personal experience with competition, in large part because I have heard OVER AND OVER AND OVER again how arbitrary the judging standards tend to be.

Another thought; does the beer TASTE really alcoholic? Do you have to disclose the OG or ABV on the entry form? Besides, I really think you're missing the significance of the "+" on the style guidelines for the weizenbock category; there IS NO upper limit....

You're getting one later this week. Bottling tonight and hopefully sending out tomorrow.
 
You really going to enter it? I'm going to play "pretend I'm a BJCP judge" (hey, why should Cassie be the only one who gets to play pretend? ;)), I want to see how my observations compare to what the person who's been trained in these matters perceives.
 
the_bird said:
You really going to enter it? I'm going to play "pretend I'm a BJCP judge" (hey, why should Cassie be the only one who gets to play pretend? ;)), I want to see how my observations compare to what the person who's been trained in these matters perceives.

You let your <3 year old pretend she's a beer judge?

Dude...she's going to end up friend's with OF's wife by the time she's 7. Not that Miles is complaining.
 
Portsmouth Brewery entered their Wheat Wine as an American-Style Wheat Wine Ale at the GABF this year. It is around 10%.
 
I agree that, if you just have to enter it in one of the defined categories, you would do best as a weizenbock. However, does it have the bock character that is essential to the style (e.g., melanoidins)? If not, then I wouldn't expect it to do well against weizenbocks that have that character. You certainly should not be dinged on a high OG, though, so long as it's a smooth alcohol warmth.

You may have a little pushback in the specialty category, also, since some judge may say "this should be entered as a weizenbock."

In other words, you may be stuck in that weird zone where you aren't quite to style, but not so far out that you are into specialty. If you really want to see where it can go, enter in both categories and see how it hits. If you'd rather save a six-pack for your own enjoyment, though, that's always a safe bet. :)


TL
 
One key element of judging, the judges do not know ABV, SRM, etc. They get an unlabeled glass of beer and judge it on flavor, color, nose.

Pelican Brewery's Dorymen's Dark has won many national & International prizes in the Brown ale style. But, it really pushes the edges of the style.
 
You can look at a beer and determine SRM easily enough. Often, you can get a good idea of ABV from smelling and drinking the beer, too, especially once you get much higher than 6-7%.

From what I've seen, beers that push the envelope on the high side tend to do better than beers that are down the middle of the style. That seems true in both homebrew and commercial competitions.


TL
 
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