Additions advice?

[Blarneybrew]

I'm reading though some of the stickies and am finding them quite informative thanks. I still don't understand mash pH. Do you want a certain pH of water before the conversion, or do you calculate for a desired pre-boil pH?

I also want to know more about the various acidifying malts. Sourmalz, Crystal, acidulated?

In time I will learn more.

I use a spring water for my beers, which are low to medium ibu 5 gallon biab lagers for the most part. Here's my water profile:


Secondary Inorganic Properties

1.9 mg/L Chloride, 13 mg/L sulfate

pH 7.74

Calcium 49.9 mg/L
Hardness as calcium carbonate 171.5 mg/L
Magnesium 11.4 mg/L
Sodium 2.2 mg/L

So I have ordered some of LD Carlson's Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, and Calcium Carbonate. Should I stick with the baseline suggestions from the Primer sticky or given my water profile is there a more ideal baseline for me to use until I become more involved with water chemistry tweaking?

Thanks all

 

[Yooper]

I'm reading though some of the stickies and am finding them quite informative thanks. I still don't understand mash pH. Do you want a certain pH of water before the conversion, or do you calculate for a desired pre-boil pH?

You are looking at the mash pH, and that is what we're talking about in targeting a specific pH during the mash. It's generally best at 5.3-5.5 at room temperature, but 5.2-5.8 or so is acceptable.

 

[Blarneybrew]

During the mash....but isn't the pH going to vary during the mash? From say 3 minutes in to 30 minutes in? And at room temp? Isn't that a little inconvenient considering that your mash is far from being room temp?

 

[Yooper]

During the mash....but isn't the pH going to vary during the mash? From say 3 minutes in to 30 minutes in? And at room temp? Isn't that a little inconvenient considering that your mash is far from being room temp?

No, it doesn't vary all that much once it stabilized. To cool the sample (which is a small sample, about 1/3 of a shot glass full), I chill it in a glass of ice water and it takes just a couple of minutes. It's no trouble.

You can take the mash pH at mash temperatures if you don't care if you burn up a pH meter probe (and they are expensive!).

 

[Blarneybrew]

So how much will the malts alone drop my water's pH? Say I'm using 50/50 pils and NA two row? 9lbs total in 7.75 gal of mash water?

Is my water's pH of 7.74 common for spring water? Apparently distilled is a lot lower in pH. Possibly close to target

I write my thoughts too often. Inquisitive mind

Still hoping I can get some advice on a baseline addition of the aforementioned compounds. If not im sure there's no harm in sticking to the baseline provided in the primer sticky. This will be my first go at intentionally changing the water profile

 

[ajdelange]

So how much will the malts alone drop my water's pH?

The mash pH will depend on the proton deficit of the grain, the amount of grain, the amount of water and the water's alkalinity. The water's pH has but a small effect as the alkalinity number accounts for the effect of the water's pH.

Say I'm using 50/50 pils and NA two row? 9lbs total in 7.75 gal of mash water?

I have data for Weyerman's Pils (normal - not the floor malted stuff)
In a distilled water mash (0 alkalinity) you would expect pH 5.62 measured at room temperature. If the water had alkalinity of 100 and there were 30 kg of this malt in 100L you would expect a pH of 5.76. Were there calcium hardness of 100 that would drop to 5.71. By comparison, a particular 600L chocolate malt has as DI mash pH of 4.55.

Is my water's pH of 7.74 common for spring water?

Doesn't raise my eyebrows.

Apparently distilled is a lot lower in pH. Possibly close to target

DI water will present at lower pH but I reiterate: the water's pH is not important. The alkalinity is. DI water has very low alkalinity (about 2.5 ppm as CaCO3).

Still hoping I can get some advice on a baseline addition of the aforementioned compounds. If not im sure there's no harm in sticking to the baseline provided in the primer sticky. This will be my first go at intentionally changing the water profile

It can get very complicated if you want it to. If you don't want it to - that's what the Primer is for. Until you understand things better the Primer is probably the best way for you to proceed.

Some other comments: You water info does not include data on alkalinity. It would appear, from the other ion contents, that the water will be quite alkaline. To use the primer you would need to dilute it down appreciably with low ion content water.

Yes, pH does change throughout the mash tending to rise over a half hour or so. Check at 15 - 20 minutes after strike. It may creep up a bit more after that but it won't be by much.

 

[Blarneybrew]

Would there be another term for alkalinity? Electrical conductivity is 322 u5/cm, Turbitidy is .34 NTU, TDS 205 mg/L

Oh boy, I didn't think alkalinity meant much more than being greater than 7.0 pH

To dilute appreciatively means?

Do I appear to have low ion content water?

Or do you mean to say that it might be a good idea for me to mix Spring and RO water together? I have an RO data sheet handy as well from the same supplier

 

[ajdelange]

Would there be another term for alkalinity? Electrical conductivity is 322 u5/cm, Turbitidy is .34 NTU, TDS 205 mg/L

No - or at least not any of these. Sometimes bottled water proprietors give a bicarbonate number from which alkalinity can be calculated.

Oh boy, I didn't think alkalinity meant much more than being greater than 7.0 pH

That's what they teach you in high school. Here alkalinity is the amount of acid you must add to lower the pH of a 1L sample of the water to pH 4.5 or so. That is a bit more than the amount of acid you will have to add to your mash to get it to proper pH to cover the water (the grains have an alkalinity of their own).

To dilute appreciatively means?

Adding the RO/DI while thinking kindly of the guy who gave you all this great advice?

Seriously, it (appreciably) means diluting down to where all the ion contents and the alkalinity are below 20 - 30. This would be, for the water you mentioned, so heavy a dilution you might as well use all low ion water and have a clean sheet of paper each time you brew. This does not mean the water you have can't be used to brew good beer without dilution - just that the simplifications of the Primer are not available to you

Do I appear to have low ion content water?

No.

 

[Blarneybrew]

Well my RO is a big ND on all of the ions listed, and with an pH of 6.02. Pretty huge difference in CaCO3 levels found in the Spring water.

Perhaps I'll try 5gal RO + 2.75 Spring and add a gram of gypsum and a gram of CaCl? Or maybe I should just hold off until I can get my hands on some acidifying malts. Thing is I don't want to brew now without making an adjustment. I've been making good tasting beers but they are still only reminiscent of my personal canon of commercial favorites. It's probably the water chem

I certainly will be thinking about you and your style of technical prose while wondering if there's a hope in hell for me to learn anything sure and steady with regards to my water chem.

 

[mchrispen]

Blarneybrew - don't get frustrated. Mash chemistry can be as simple or as complex as you wish. That is why the primer is fairly straightforward in it's recommendations. Getting a handle on this may dramatically change your beers for the better...

I would recommend downloading Bru'n Water and poking around with it. Using it as a simple model, inputting your recipe, and playing with salt additions, you can quickly get a handle on what does what. The spreadsheet gives solid advice, and you can learn a lot more by reading through how others are treating their water. Learn to use it and brew with it - and see if it makes a tremendous difference. You will need accurate information on your water however. I also use it as a tool in planning to think through my additions carefully - and make sure they are appropriate, and inline with the desired flavor contribution. Otherwise, I use it to hit pH without affecting that desired flavor profile.

Someone earlier said - it's the mash pH that is important and not the water pH. Best advice anyone can provide - ignore water pH, focus on the mash. You can have a water pH of 8 with little alkalinity or the same with a lot of alkalinity. If the natural acid in the mash cannot overcome that alkalinity - it will not settle to a "proper pH" and potentially cause issues with conversion and off-flavors. You don't mention if you are measuring pH with a meter or with strips... but careful observation during the mash with those tools will give you a lot of information. You can use liquid acid or baking soda/pickling lime to adjust pH up or down making small additions. Keeping track of these additions will help with the next mash.

It sounds like you have good access to R/O, which is a blank slate for building a good water profile for brewing. Again - Bru'n water can help with that, and with R/O you don't need the full water report - you can just set the spreadsheet to 100% R/O Water dilution. Add some calcium chloride or gypsum and in most cases you are good to go. If you need a little alkalinity - I suggest picking up pickling lime at the grocery store. You said you brew mostly lagers, and there is a Yellow Balanced and Yellow Malty profile to help as a starting point in the spreadsheet. There is a walk through in my signature that focuses on building from R/O that Martin helped me to write.

If you want to understand mash chemistry deeper - AJ, M Brungard, Kai Troester and many others here can help a lot. Reading through the new "Water" book may also be helpful. I still get very lost in some of the chemical reaction descriptions - but it doesn't stop me from using a good tool to help.

 

[Blarneybrew]

Thanks for your response. I have access to spring, RO, and distilled from the same supplier. I'll keep on reading the stickies here and taking down notes.

As far as alkalinity goes the reports only provide hardness as CaCO3.

What's a good pH measurement tool? Not the most expensive per se, but good bang for buck?

I'm ready to jump in and take the steps that I need to become more knowledgable, however I suspect the next two or three brews I make are going to be very crude but cautious guesses that will hopefully show modest improvements in my beer.