Adding smoke in secondary

[thesemicullen]

Hello all. I've been a long-time lurker to these forums and finally joined today. You all give some fantastic information and advice and I'm looking for some help.

I am planning a partial mash, 5 gal. Imperial Stout brew that I am going to split into two different batches. To one of those batches I plan to add whiskey-soaked oak cubes in secondary - no biggie. However, to the other batch, I want to add some smoke flavor.

I have searched the forums and come up with a lot of conflicting advice. It appears there are three schools of thought on how to do this: 1) Use liquid smoke; 2) Mash a small bit of smoke malt and add to secondary; or 3) Add a smoked item of some kind to the secondary.

Option 1 ... I would rather not use liquid smoke because I'm not fond of the flavor.

Option 2 seems to be a good one. I would appreciate any of your insight on this idea and what you think the outcome would be. Rather than buy smoked malt, I would probably smoke some pale malt myself.

Option 3 is something I've been going over in my mind a bit. Since I'm already getting some oak cubes for half of the batch, I'm considering just smoking some of them and seeing if that imparts enough smoke. For the record, I read through every thread I could find on the topic both here and elsewhere and while the idea was floated, I never found anyone who did it. Since smoke adsorbs to surfaces more than absorbs (smoke absorption is a common myth in the world of barbecue), I would think this would work pretty well, actually. I would love to hear from anyone who has tried this, though.

As for smoke levels, I am shooting for a Yazoo Sue profile.

Thanks.

 

[ImNoExpert]

I add smoked malts to many of my bigger beers. I really like the flavor. I always add them to the mash.

IMHO option one is a shortcut. You might as well braise your ribs in the oven and add liquid smoke instead of properly smoking them. Option three makes sense, but if you soak the cubes in whiskey, then the whisky will grab a lot of that smoke and you're basically adding smoke extract.

I think smoking your own malt is a great idea and very cool.

 

[azazel1024]

Roasted mesquite maybe?

Take a piece or a few small pieces, throw it on a grill and blast it with a propane torch or the grill itself until it just ignites and then extinguish it. Maybe soak in a little vodka for awhile to soak up the flavor and then you can flavor the secondary to taste?

Also that would allow you to dillute a little in some water so you can get a feel if that is the flavor you want to be adding to your brew.

 

[kombat]

As I understand it, smoke malt is smoked with Beech wood chips, not oak. I don't know what you'd end up with if you did it with oak. Around here, malt is so cheap ($0.89/lb on Thursdays from Ontario Beer Kegs, up to 20 lbs) there's really no reason to bother trying to do it yourself.

That said, if you mash (really steep, since I don't think it will self-convert) some smoke malt separately, make sure you boil it before adding it to the fermenter. Malt is crawling with bacteria and MUST be sanitized in a boil.

 

[thesemicullen]

I add smoked malts to many of my bigger beers. I really like the flavor. I always add them to the mash.

IMHO option one is a shortcut. You might as well braise your ribs in the oven and add liquid smoke instead of properly smoking them. Option three makes sense, but if you soak the cubes in whiskey, then the whisky will grab a lot of that smoke and you're basically adding smoke extract.

I think smoking your own malt is a great idea and very cool.

Yeah. I don't like the idea of option 1 at all. I should perhaps clarify Option 3 - I'm only going to soak some of the cubes in whiskey for one batch. The other I would just smoke them.

Option 2 seems to be the best idea to me, so far.

Roasted mesquite maybe?

Take a piece or a few small pieces, throw it on a grill and blast it with a propane torch or the grill itself until it just ignites and then extinguish it. Maybe soak in a little vodka for awhile to soak up the flavor and then you can flavor the secondary to taste?

Also that would allow you to dillute a little in some water so you can get a feel if that is the flavor you want to be adding to your brew.

I think toasting vice smoking is going to impart two different flavors. However, pregaming in some water is a very good idea. I might just smoke some oak chips the next time I fire up the smoker, then soak them in water for a while and see what the results are like.

Thank you both.

 

[thesemicullen]

As I understand it, smoke malt is smoked with Beech wood chips, not oak. I don't know what you'd end up with if you did it with oak. Around here, malt is so cheap ($0.89/lb on Thursdays from Ontario Beer Kegs, up to 20 lbs) there's really no reason to bother trying to do it yourself.

That said, if you mash (really steep, since I don't think it will self-convert) some smoke malt separately, make sure you boil it before adding it to the fermenter. Malt is crawling with bacteria and MUST be sanitized in a boil.

Thanks for that tip. If I decide to go this route, I would definitely boil the wort.

Yazoo has been smoking their malt with apple, which is what I was planning to do (oak chips smoked with apple, that should be interesting). So I would just buy some pale ale malt and smoke that. Then I'll get conversion, etc.

 

[aiptasia]

I've never had Yazoo Sue, so I can't judge how much smoke you're trying to achieve. Most people aim for about 10% smoked malt for a barely detectable smoke flavor and up to 25% for a strong flavor. There are also Rauchbiers that top out around 50% smoked malt but that's a completely smoke dominated beer.

I agree, don't go with a liquid smoke. I think the taste of liquid smoke is abhorrent and it has no place in beer or in food. Of the three choices you're looking at, the only one that i've used with any success is option #2. I add some cherrywood smoked malt to my Scotch ale recipe instead of peated malt because I think the rich smoky flavor compliments it without overpowering it. I do this at about a 10% level in my recipe, which means you can definitely taste the smoke but it's completely in balance with the other flavors in the beer. You'll probably need to rack your beer to a secondary with the smoked malt wort in it and put it through a secondary fermentation.

Option #3 sounds interesting to be but i've never tried it, and wouldn't know what kind of a smoke profile it would add to the beer. Also, it will be lending an oaked flavor as well which may or may not be desirable to your beer. I have no idea how much you'd use but I would suggest a few things if you wish to attempt it:

1) Once your oak cubes are smoked, find a good way to sanitize them. I think heat would be your best option here, bringing the cubes up to about 200 degrees (and use a thermometer) in your oven or on the grill on low for about ten minutes time. Wood is very porous and i'm not sure how deeply the heat will penetrate, or if warming them up would also alter the smoke flavor but I think you'd be fine.

2) Use a small amount of oak cubes in a weighted grain bag, and sample your batch daily. I like to sanitize a few glass marbles and put them in my grain bags so they sink when I use whiskey chips or dry hops in a grain bag. Sinks right to the bottom. A very gentle stir and a sample with a sanitized wine thief/turkey baster will let your taste buds clue in to how much smoke flavor is coming through. I would imagine it wouldn't take long to start tasting the flavor coming through.

 

[stpug]

You will boil a single batch of beer (5 gallons). After cooling, you will split this into two fermenters (~2.5 gallons in each fermenter). You want one to be an oaked whisky/bourbon stout, and the other to be a smoked stout (oak?).

I would personally steep some smoked malt in a small saucepan for 30 minutes, boil it, chill it, and keep it ready for adding to one of your fermenters.

When your main wort is chilled, split into fermenters, simply pour in your steep smoke wort. If you want oak, add some cubes (but I would personally leave oak out of one batch in case you find blending them to be necessary after fermentation is complete).

I would go so far as to ferment them with different yeast while I'm at it.

At least, that's one idea

 

[thesemicullen]

2) Use a small amount of oak cubes in a weighted grain bag, and sample your batch daily. I like to sanitize a few glass marbles and put them in my grain bags so they sink when I use whiskey chips or dry hops in a grain bag. Sinks right to the bottom. A very gentle stir and a sample with a sanitized wine thief/turkey baster will let your taste buds clue in to how much smoke flavor is coming through. I would imagine it wouldn't take long to start tasting the flavor coming through.

PRO TIP! Thank you!

You will boil a single batch of beer (5 gallons). After cooling, you will split this into two fermenters (~2.5 gallons in each fermenter). You want one to be an oaked whisky/bourbon stout, and the other to be a smoked stout (oak?).

I would personally steep some smoked malt in a small saucepan for 30 minutes, boil it, chill it, and keep it ready for adding to one of your fermenters.

When your main wort is chilled, split into fermenters, simply pour in your steep smoke wort. If you want oak, add some cubes (but I would personally leave oak out of one batch in case you find blending them to be necessary after fermentation is complete).

I would go so far as to ferment them with different yeast while I'm at it.

At least, that's one idea

Your explanation of steeping smoked malt is almost exactly what I was attempting to convey with my option 2, but far less eloquently. I was thinking about going as far as actually mashing pale malt I smoked myself, but I suppose steeping it would work just as well.

If I were looking for a heavily smoked flavor, how much would you suggest to add to a 2.5 gallon batch? About two quarts?

I'm not hung up on oak. I was just looking at them as a potential vehicle to carry the smoke flavor into one batch.

Thank you much for this reply. This really helped me wrap my head around the issue.

 

[stpug]

Your explanation of steeping smoked malt is almost exactly what I was attempting to convey with my option 2, but far less eloquently. I was thinking about going as far as actually mashing pale malt I smoked myself, but I suppose steeping it would work just as well.

If I were looking for a heavily smoked flavor, how much would you suggest to add to a 2.5 gallon batch? About two quarts?

I'm not hung up on oak. I was just looking at them as a potential vehicle to carry the smoke flavor into one batch.

Thank you much for this reply. This really helped me wrap my head around the issue.

You could mash it if you'd like, but I don't see the need for it since your objective is to obtain the smoke flavor/aroma which doesn't require mashing to accomplish. Any starch haze caused by not mashing is also negligible in such a dark brew, so again I wouldn't worry about it. If you "steep" a smoked base malt between 140-160F you'll be mashing anyways

Smoked malt can be too strong at times, and too light at times. Since you're dealing with home-smoked malt, a correct answer on how much to use is even harder. What CAN be said is that smoke will mellow (as will oak) with time, so if you find either batch to be too strongly flavored then more time in the bottle will help mellow the flavor - AND since it's an imperial stout any additional aging time is probably a welcome thing (certainly not harmful). You can also blend them when fermentation is completed.

I would venture a guess that 2 lbs of smoked malt in a 5 gallon batch of imperial stout would show up decently; 3 lbs would be strong; 1 lb would be mellow. SO, for a half-batch then 1 lb would be decent; 1.5 lbs would be stong; 0.5 lb would be mellow. Since you're dealing with home-smoked malt, it's a guessing game.

I would probably steep a specific amount (1-1.5 lb), squeeze the grain bag, boil it, chill it, and have it ready. When it comes time to add it to your main wort, only add half and give it a good stir, and then taste a spoonful (using all sanitized equipment of course). If you find the smoke to be too light, then add more, and sample again. Repeat the process until you're happy with what you're tasting. If you end up adding all of your smoked wort to your batch and still find the smoke flavor lacking then simply whip up another small steeped smoke wort using more smoked malt, boil it, chill it, and add it. The nice thing about this process is that it's flexible and you have plenty of time to get the flavor in there. As long as you're sanitary in your process then there's no harm in taking your time to get it right.

Hope this helps.

 

[Babybatch]

Ooo!! I'd like to be part of this discussion.

4) Smoke your own malt sounds like a cool and fun project. Plus if you successfully transfer the smoke flavor to the batch it will give you way more bragging rights than liquid smoke. Though I'm not sure just what would be involved in the process.

What about applying actual smoke?

I've see cocktails get smoked:



Using something like this



Then there is something like this that would be similar for a larger scale and could be done DIY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvOkGOh7xk

I am not recommending this method because it seems to me that there could be some issues with contamination. Am I wrong? Could this be done? What would be the potential hazards?

Here are some of the flaws that I am thinking could be involved with this method:

1) Line condensation could contaminate the secondary
2) Smoke could increase temperature? (Not sure about this.)
3) Smoke flavor would fade faster? (Not sure.)
4) Just thought of probably the worst flaw: Oxygen. - EDIT

Just exercising some critical thinking based on the things that I have read. I'm a total n00b still.

NOTE: I would embed the video but I don't know how. Wait? What? The video embedded itself? What about the other?

 

[thesemicullen]

Thanks again, everyone. I think I was overthinking this, but it seems like Option 2 is the way to go. Steeping some smoked malt seems like it'll be the easiest and I *do* like the idea of the bragging rights of smoking my own malt.

Ooo!! I'd like to be part of this discussion.

4) Smoke your own malt sounds like a cool and fun project. Plus if you successfully transfer the smoke flavor to the batch it will give you way more bragging rights than liquid smoke. Though I'm not sure just what would be involved in the process.

The process of smoking malt is pretty simple actually. If you have a smoker or a decently sized grill, all you need to do is spread it out on a cookie sheet and put that on your smoker/grill. Use only four or five lit charcoal briquettes and put a good-sixed hunk of smoke wood of choice on them.

FYI, this is a good "cold smoke" process for lots of things - cheeses, nuts, etc. Just keep your amount of briquettes low so the overall temperature of the cooking chamber stays low as well.

What about applying actual smoke?

I've see cocktails get smoked:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XpO0xdxyUkg

Using something like this



Then there is something like this that would be similar for a larger scale and could be done DIY.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfvOkGOh7xk

I am not recommending this method because it seems to me that there could be some issues with contamination. Am I wrong? Could this be done? What would be the potential hazards?

Here are some of the flaws that I am thinking could be involved with this method:


1) Line condensation could contaminate the secondary
2) Smoke could increase temperature? (Not sure about this.)
3) Smoke flavor would fade faster? (Not sure.)
4) Just thought of probably the worst flaw: Oxygen. - EDIT

NOTE: I would embed the video but I don't know how. Wait? What? The video embedded itself? What about the other?

While this looks awesome, I'm kind of skeered.

 

[Schlenkerla]

You can also smoke small lava rock then put it in your secondary. Rinsed, boiled and smoked.

I realize this doesn't answer the op question, but.....

Aside from using rauch malt, this is one method for infusing smoke during the boil.

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[Schlenkerla]

If you plan to brew with rock for adding smoke I think any rock/stone would be good. Not necessarily lava rock.

I have never done it myself. One of my brewing books suggested it over using rauch malt.

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[Zuljin]

You will boil a single batch of beer (5 gallons). After cooling, you will split this into two fermenters (~2.5 gallons in each fermenter). You want one to be an oaked whisky/bourbon stout, and the other to be a smoked stout (oak?).

I would personally steep some smoked malt in a small saucepan for 30 minutes, boil it, chill it, and keep it ready for adding to one of your fermenters.

When your main wort is chilled, split into fermenters, simply pour in your steep smoke wort. If you want oak, add some cubes (but I would personally leave oak out of one batch in case you find blending them to be necessary after fermentation is complete).

I would go so far as to ferment them with different yeast while I'm at it.

At least, that's one idea

PRO TIP! Thank you!



Your explanation of steeping smoked malt is almost exactly what I was attempting to convey with my option 2, but far less eloquently. I was thinking about going as far as actually mashing pale malt I smoked myself, but I suppose steeping it would work just as well.

If I were looking for a heavily smoked flavor, how much would you suggest to add to a 2.5 gallon batch? About two quarts?

I'm not hung up on oak. I was just looking at them as a potential vehicle to carry the smoke flavor into one batch.

Thank you much for this reply. This really helped me wrap my head around the issue.

I'm liking the idea of steeping or mashing some smoked grain.

My only rauchbier is in secondary now. I mashed in the smoked grain from the get go. The grain bill was six pounds munich, six pounds pale two row and 3 pounds vienna. I smoked the vienna. The smoke flavor right now is very forward and pronounced.

Here's how I did it. Turn on the hood vent. Heat a deep cast iron frying pan on the stove. Add some slightly moist cherry wood. Whatever, I do what I want. Pour cracked grain on a steel pizza pan, the perforated kind. Maybe not all of it at once. However much fits at a time. Put that pan of grain over the frying pan of wood. Put a steel wok over the whole thing to trap smoke.

It wasn't long before I had smoke. Lots of smoke. It wasn't long after that, I was taking the pan off the stove, opening the doors and windows, and standing outside to wave off the fire department. Wow! That was a lot of smoke!

Sounds bad, and I nearly died of smoke inhalation, but it worked. Next time I do it, I'll do it on lower heat and maybe moisten the wood a little more. Thankfully, it doesn't taste like burnt wood since I pulled it off fast enough. "High" is not the stove setting to start this on.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Were you drinking during this event?
I can't see how you allowed it to progress to such a state. Are you exaggerating it a bit? How long did it take to get really out of hand?



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[Zuljin]

Were you drinking during this event?
I can't see how you allowed it to progress to such a state. Are you exaggerating it a bit? How long did it take to get really out of hand?



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I don't see what my drinking has to do with any of this.

And by exaggerating, do you mean, leaving out the part about the 17 foot fire tornado that wound its way up the vent chute and through the roof? Because I didn't want to sound like I was just making stuff up.

But seriously, it was a lot of smoke. I did have to air the house out.

It's a good method. It got me lots of smoke flavor, so far. This beer is still in secondary, but I don't forsee the flavor disappearing. Rauchbier came about by drying grain over wood fires which naturally imparted smoke to the grain.

My do it again advice is a little more moisture, lower heat and more patience for the smoke to start. And to remember, the thin pieces of wood used to make smoke in backyard BBQ pits can woosh up pretty quick.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I was wondering if drinking was involved due the shear mass of smoke. Also, as a side thought, if it had to do with the judgement to smoke grain indoors.

Take no offense, people often brew & drink that result in placing themselves weird or awkward situations.

Just wondered... I drink when I brew but tend to limit the amount due to experience of what can happen without self regulation.

All in all it seems like a logical question.

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[Schlenkerla]

Seriously, no offense or insult intended.

I think it would have been comical to be there. My wife would have called us both idiots.

FWIW - I have a smoking gun. Got it for Xmas. From watching and reading online, it appears a pot with a lid and this gun you can fill it full of smoke, cover it, let it sit and the smoke will permeate whatever you are trying to get smoked. The gun uses a thimble full of wood slivers. You turn on a fan that pulls air through the lit thimble and pumps it into the vessel. Then shut it off. Dump not much more than a thimble-full of burnt slivers into a ashtray. Apparently many people just smoke the empty vessel. Like the serving glassware. Could be a keg or a carboy.

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[Zuljin]

It was hilarious! I'm always trying to have fun with stuff.

I don't know anything about these smoke guns, but "Smoking Gun" would be a great name for a beer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I believe smoking gun is a name of beer, not sure who brews it. I searched this forum and found smoking gun on rate beer, and discussed in several places in HBT. Then your thread.

Yes it would be a good name for a beer. I've been considering it. I'm going to start a new thread once I give the "Smoking Gun" a run for the money. I've got several wild ideas for post brewing experimentation.

I love smoke beers. Google Schlenkerla Aecht Rauchbier and you'll figure out how I got my screen name. If you ever drink Schlenkerla you'll want some beer with your glass of smoke. LOL



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[Zuljin]

I've only had two. Shiner Smokehause, which was terrible. I'm a big Shiner fan, but that beer was horrible. It tasted like drinking burnt Spam soaked in cheap liquid smoke. It's their worst received beer ever. The other, I forget what it was. It came in a brown can. Had some old guy's face on it, maybe. I had that one the day I brewed this one. I chose to brew a smoke beer because it was on the periodic table of beer and I hadn't smoked grain before.