Acquiring kegs - legally

[Airborneguy]

Makes no difference...possession or cutting it up, its not back in the possession of the brewery who owns it...that is the point.

At least in NY, the brewery no longer owns it unless the contract specifically states that they retain ownership. And considering the purchaser does business with a distributor, there won't be a contract.

You can inject you own morals, but business is business, period.

 

[camus]

I can't believe this is still a discussion, a deposit is not a rental fee.

You don't rent a keg.

 

[hatrickwah]

It amazes me how many individuals believe that by simply handing over a $30 deposit on a $200 stainless steel keg, they somehow take ownership. The deposit is determined by the states, not the breweries. In fact some breweries I've been in who don't distribute kegs are able to charge a deposit of $100 or more, but those that distribute have to suck it up with a $30 deposit. While I have little simpathy for A-B and M-C kegs that go missing (millions of $$ lost in kegs a year), I find it amazing how supporting the local brewery is top priority, but people will take a perfectly good keg from the local brewery and cut it up for their own use, costing the brewery $200 in lost assets. While one or two doesn't sound like much, start adding that number up over time and you find breweries who are out thousands of dollars in kegs.

 

[camus]

Ahh pooh!

We lost to much on non-returned kegs this year guys. I suggest you all work on your resumes. Never mind the growlers tossed in the trash, never mind the bottles. It was the kegs that were never returned, it killed our profitability!

I have no desire or intention to cut up a keg, but LMFAO at local guys getting killed by it, and double LMFAO if it is ok because it was BMC.

 

[Airborneguy]

Yeah, it is kind of funny that those who inject morals into this have no problem, as long as it's BMC, but when confronted with the fact that this is completely legal, no amount of evidence change their minds.

 

[hatrickwah]

Its not legal to destroy property that isn't yours. Paying a $30 deposit is not buying the keg. The keg still belongs to the brewery.

 

[J-Malone]

I am not here trying to start any moral debates or arguments, because this issue has been beaten to death.

Here is my take, I dont feel comfortable paying a "deposit" for a keg and not returning it. If you do, great! You get some pretty cheap kegs. I am going to try and find old damaged kegs that will not be accepted by the brewery. A friend called me and said his father found an old keg in his barn that was at least 10-12 years old. He told me I could have it if I wanted it. I am considering taking it because there is no way the brewery (I am pretty sure it is a BMC) would take it back. It is beat up pretty good and scratched all to hell. But I dont know. Most likely this will be the way I have to acquire it, based on the way it is looking around here in TN.

Every brewery and distributor I called said they didnt have any, and none of the recycle joints accept them (supposedly). So finding a friend who has one from god knows how long ago might be the only route I have...

But whatever, I guess if there is no law against it, it isnt illegal, but you have to make a moral judgement...I think I am more willing to accept one from a friend that is clearly old and beat up than going to the store and paying hte deposit and keeping it...

 

[J-Malone]

On a side note, there is a place here in TN that sells beer kegs (its basically a beer store) and I asked if they had damaged kegs that they got rid of and I got an interesting reply.


John,

Keg deposits are $50 for a full keg and $65 for an empty one.

Thanks!

So I replied back for clarification...

Is the $65 for an empty one for the purchase of the empty keg or just a rental…I know that sounds like a ******* question but I want to clarify…thanks

And I got this...

It's for a deposit, so if it is never returned you simply lose the deposit. There is no sales tax as it is only recorded as a deposit.

Hope this helps,

So it appears that they are just selling the old empty kegs they have for $65 and they also got to keep the initial deposit of $50 in the first place. Even if they have to give that $50 to the brewery (which I am not sure about), they still make $65 on the whole thing.

Thoughts?

 

[Airborneguy]

Thoughts?

I'm not trying to be facetious towards you, and honestly I don't own any kegs, so it's not even personal for me, the only reason this is interesting to me is because I work in law enforcement, specifically I deal with the proper filing and classification of all criminal reports in my command.

Last time this came up, someone specifically mentioned NY, and I got involved by saying that there was no way this was criminal and a report would never be taken (off the top of my head, I was home). The argument continued and when I went to work on Sunday night, I researched everything and bounced the ideas off my partner and boss. We came to the 100% definitive conclusion, that in NY state, the only way this type of transaction could result in an actual legal theft was if you signed something that said you had to return the keg, specifically. What that means is, the wording would have to say that regardless of deposit, the keg is expected to be returned, so basically, the deposit wouldn't even be required.

The reason there is a deposit at all is because they are effectively selling you the keg the way this transaction legally works, so the interested parties hope that a deposit will encourage you to return it anyway.

A few people made the comparison to bottles and cans, and honestly, that is a DEAD ON comparison. The deposit in that case is for a different reason - recycling - but the concept is exactly the same: In NY state, when you purchase something that requires a container, unless there is a contract that states otherwise, you are legally taking control of the container also.

It is in the breweries' best interests to not sell the keg for the full-price of the beer and the keg, because it would be too expensive and no one would buy them! So this is how they make it work for them.

And based on the email conversation you just posted, TN might have a similar legal situation.

 

[DustyTheBrewer]

Hard to argue with that ^^^.

 

[Airborneguy]

Look up the DFH Score thread and somewhere in there you can read all the actual legal stuff if you want. I allowed myself to get a little flustered by the guy who doubted me so I wrote it all up in that thread.

 

[Airborneguy]

Somewhere in here:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/dfh-score-220957/

 

[hatrickwah]

Have to agree with that logic.
My uncle put it best... if the deposit isn't punitive enough, there is no incentive to bring it back. Whoever thought $30 was punitive enough of a deposit on kegs, obviously never actually bought a keg. Thank god MI finally changed their deposit to $30, so there is at least a little more compensation on missing kegs (versus $10), but it still is ridiculous.
With my background, I am uncomfortable taking a keg for $30, but with the available channels I have, I don't have to either. I do have keggles, but mine were provided by the brewery I used to work for, with their knowledge. The kegs had botched welds on the tops.

 

[kchippie]

So my buddy gave me 4 keg shells that he accumulated in collage, probably didn't get them back in time. They sat in his garage forever and are at least 10 years old, I can't imagine anyone wanting these back. Can I cut into them and get started building/brewing?