Acid Shock Starter for Bottling

[cactusgarrett]

Does anyone have experience with the terminal acid shock starter process mentioned on Milk the Funk wiki? Last night i performed the low-tech version and am questioning the result thus far; wondering if it's worth continuing with this attempt.

As of now, i'm not seeing any activity/fermentation, which i kind of assumed i would. However, the yeast floccs out pretty quickly (within 30 min), leaving a completely clear supernatant on top. Should i be seeing more traditional activity as with a sacc starter? Or despite this apparent separation, is the starter doing what it should be?

The next step is to mix a 1:1 of this and the sour beer i'll be packaging, and i don't want to proceed further and waste time/beer if this isn't behaving properly.

 

[DrKnow]

If you follow the “low tech” process, it works perfectly. What yeast strain are you using to bottle? How much yeast? Keep in mind your starter is mainly apple juice. The beer you mixed in is already fermented and is only there to acclimate your bottling strain to the low ph. Wine yeasts don’t tend to krausen like beer yeasts. Also apple juice doesn’t contain much protein etc to form a huge krausen. Is it possible that you missed the starter fermentation (it completed while you were at work/asleep)? You SHOULD see tiny bubbles breaking the surface of the liquid while it is actively fermenting. But it won’t look like a starter of WLP001 ripping on a stir plate. You need to step it up again before bottling so watch it closely for activity before bottling. I have achieved full carbonation within 24-48 hours with this method. It was a little scary the first time it happened, but I have had no bottle bombs or gushers. Just perfect carbonation and zero off flavors. How sour is your beer?

 

[cactusgarrett]

I used the CBC-1 dry yeast - the recommended amount (2g). The pack was opened (from previous use), resealed, and stored refrigerated. It rehydrated just fine. One thing i did differently was use starter wort (at 1.020) instead of apple juice. I plan on stepping it up again (wort:beer, 1:1), but i don't want to bother with that if the first step didn't take, maybe due to old yeast. I'd be wasting beer and time, as I'm targeting a specific day to bottle.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Can CBC-1 ferment wort? I would use simple sugars instead of wort because generally wine yeasts don't handle maltose or maltotriose very well.


I've been thinking about acidifying acid shock starters with lactic acid instead of sour beer. And using dextrose + nutrient instead of apple juice.

 

[cactusgarrett]

No clue; I didn't even give it a thought, but it appears it can.
https://www.lallemandbrewing.com/docs/products/tds/TDS_LALBREW_PREM_CBC1_ENGLISH_DIGITAL.pdf

"CBC-1 can also be used for primary fermentation and is especially suitable for Champagne-like beers and fruit beers."

I was going to repeat tonight with fresh CBC-1 - just rehydrate and toss it in the starter I already prepared. Hoping it was just an issue with old yeast, and that it'll take off and i won't have wasted the beer i already used. If that doesn't work, I'll re-prepare with table sugar (sucrose), yeast nutrient, and more beer.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I've been thinking about acidifying acid shock starters with lactic acid instead of sour beer.

Did you happen to work out the amounts yet? As in, the equivalent of acid needed to match the amount of acid that'd be in a lambic with pH of 3.X, for example?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Not yet, but soon. My lambic needs bottled.

 

[DrKnow]

I used the CBC-1 dry yeast - the recommended amount (2g). The pack was opened (from previous use), resealed, and stored refrigerated. It rehydrated just fine. One thing i did differently was use starter wort (at 1.020) instead of apple juice. I plan on stepping it up again (wort:beer, 1:1), but i don't want to bother with that if the first step didn't take, maybe due to old yeast. I'd be wasting beer and time, as I'm targeting a specific day to bottle.

So you deviated from the process, yet you expect the same results? I’m totally not being a d**k here. The apple juice is in there to provide an easily accessible source of fermentable sugar. It’s 100% logical to use the actual beer you are bottling to acclimate your bottling yeast to that environment. There is no guesswork or adjusting ph with acids etc. Plus you can see that your bottling yeast is active and ready to roll in the actual beer you are bottling. Once again, please don’t take offense. Just follow the process as written. It’s stupid easy and it works. I imagine you had to boil some DME for your “wort” to blend in? Why put yourself through that? Just crack open some apple juice and pour it in. I promise you won’t taste it.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Here are my thoughts about the Escarpment protocol:

- I'd rather substitute lactic acid for the beer because I really don't like risk of disturbing the pellicle... The whole point of this is preventing/reducing oxygen exposure.
- Adding alcohol to the starter isn't the best idea. Unless it's vaporized during pasteurization?
- Needing to pasteurize the beer is kind of a pain.
- I never have apple juice on hand. I do always have lactic acid, yeast nutrient, and sugar.
- The Rare Barrel's process doesn't use apple juice. They use dextrose + nutrient.
- Apple juice gravity is considered too high for starters (osmotic stress, alcoholic stress). The juice pH varies, so it's an inconsistent growth medium.

I have done this yet, but theoretically it makes a lot of sense (unless I'm missing something).
I'm thinking I should adjust to pH 3.7-3.8 for the first step and 3.2-3.3 for the second step.

I'm not knocking the Escarpment protocol. If it works, it works, but there might be a better way.

 

[cactusgarrett]

So you deviated from the process, yet you expect the same results? I’m totally not being a d**k here. The apple juice is in there to provide an easily accessible source of fermentable sugar. It’s 100% logical to use the actual beer you are bottling to acclimate your bottling yeast to that environment. There is no guesswork or adjusting ph with acids etc. Plus you can see that your bottling yeast is active and ready to roll in the actual beer you are bottling. Once again, please don’t take offense. Just follow the process as written. It’s stupid easy and it works. I imagine you had to boil some DME for your “wort” to blend in? Why put yourself through that? Just crack open some apple juice and pour it in. I promise you won’t taste it.

I deviated out of necessity, not desire or attempt to make the process easier. I didn't expect the same results - my original post was questioning what I should see in the starter to know whether or not it was working. I say 'necessity' because I'm more likely to have wort (saved from brew days, frozen) in my house than no-preservative apple juice (or any AJ for that matter). My attempt would have sh!t the bed anyway since the yeast I used (i'm concluding) wasn't viable. Had I adhered to the protocol verbatim I'd still have posted the same thing.

Ultimately, I obtained fresh yeast and used sucrose water in place of the apple juice - worked like a charm. I'm interested to see the lactic acid approach from @RPh_Guy to protect the beer.

 

[NBBC13]

so is CBC-1 the best dry yeast to use for the acid shock technique?

 

[RPh_Guy]

so is CBC-1 the best dry yeast to use for the acid shock technique?

Looking around the internet, there doesn't seem to be a consensus.
I have seen a couple reports of poor performance from CBC-1, although it does work OK for others.

FWIW I'm going to be using EC-1118. It's cheap, fast, and well behaved.
I've been busy bottling ciders and meads the last couple weeks, and I've been using EC-1118 without a starter to help bottle condition the wild batches. No THP so far from those. I just bottled my 9-month-old 10% ABV "lambic" mead today.

 

[NBBC13]

Looking around the internet, there doesn't seem to be a consensus.
I have seen a couple reports of poor performance from CBC-1, although it does work OK for others.

FWIW I'm going to be using EC-1118. It's cheap, fast, and well behaved.
I've been busy bottling ciders and meads the last couple weeks, and I've been using EC-1118 without a starter to help bottle condition the wild batches. No THP so far from those. I just bottled my 8-month-old 10% ABV "lambic" mead today.

good to hear, I'll go with the EC-1118. we're doing our first barrel, 6 months in now. Hoping at 12 months to start a solera-like setup.
but first, will try the acid shock with a couple of batches that will be 12 months this summer.

but back to the barrel. I was debating on adding some dregs from some Allagash coolship and FV-13. you guys have any idea on best time to add dregs? would you do multiple dregs at once?

 

[cactusgarrett]

any idea on best time to add dregs?

Anytime you get them.

 

[sweetcell]

you guys have any idea on best time to add dregs?

the earlier the better, since it can take a while for the dregs to get going.

would you do multiple dregs at once?

certainly. i just racked a clean belgian to secondary this past weekend and pitched dregs from RR Sanctification & Supplication + Deschutes The Ages all at once. well, within 30 to 60 minutes of each other... had to finish drinking the previous beer first

 

[RPh_Guy]

I just bottled my 9-month-old 10% ABV "lambic" mead today.

Following up ...
This batch developed Capn Crunch THP. 10% mead with wyeast belgian lambic blend. I added 0.5g/gal EC-1118 rehydrated at room temp with a pinch of Go-Ferm. Honey for priming. The mead is around 4.4 pH.

I'll be testing an acid starter process for the lambic I'm bottling next. Wish me luck.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Upland Brewing Co in Indiana uses a single step (YPD [pH 7] and sour beer mixed in a 1:1 ratio, incubated at 30C with aeration) and the bottles carbonate within 2 weeks. I attached the article; they did a series of experiments. Using a simple low pH medium didn't work as well.

I wish they had also tested buffered growth media supplemented with acetic and lactic acid levels closer to the levels in sour beer. I found an article (Thomas et al) that suggests it might work.
See also: https://link.springer.com/article/10.1038/sj.jim.7000090 (Narendranath 2001)

 

[cactusgarrett]

Ultimately, I obtained fresh yeast and used sucrose water in place of the apple juice - worked like a charm.

Just wanted to come back and put a nail in this. After 16 days carbonating, and being one of the more sour ones I've done (I did not take a pH reading), I cracked one last night and it was damn near a gusher (half on purpose - carbed to a high vol). So i would say the 1:1 sucrose/water:sour beer approach with CBC-1 is a winner.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I'll be testing an acid starter process for the lambic I'm bottling next. Wish me luck.

Did you ever get around to testing this? This was conditioning the bottling yeast with lactic acid, instead of the sour beer, correct?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Did you ever get around to testing this? This was conditioning the bottling yeast with lactic acid, instead of the sour beer, correct?

I have, very recently. I don't have all the measurements so I didn't want to update quite yet.

Acidic growth medium:
100mL RO water
1mL 88% lactic acid
1mL 5% acetic acid
10g dextrose
??g potassium carbonate (q.s. to pH 3.3)*

Rehydrate the yeast:
3.13g Go-Ferm
63mL RO water
Heat and mix thoroughly.
Cool to @ 98°F.
Sprinkle 5g EC1118 onto the surface.
Allow to stand 15 minutes.
Attemporate slowly with the acidic growth medium.

Cover and allow to ferment 1-2 days.
Decant the liquid (should be clear) and add slurry at bottling during racking.
Don't add directly to the priming sugar.

*I don't have the amount of potassium carbonate needed because my scale shut off as I was measuring it. It was probably less than half a gram... So I'll have to measure it again the next time.

My bottles carbonated in less than a week and there's no THP. I'd call that a win!

I'm not really sure how much Go-Ferm is appropriate. I don't taste any off-flavors from it, so I think the amount I used is ok -- it's 50% of the recommended amount.