Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[2005STi]

i would think you'd want more like 70:140 sulfate to chloride. 1:2 isn't a detectable amount of either ion.

It's pretty clear the guy is talking about a 1:2 ratio of sulfate to chloride. But you sure did zing him

 

[Smellyglove]

I have about 5PPM og sulfates in my water. I just add a bit of CaCl to maybe 10PPM, easy on the carbonation, and I get a pretty smooth mouthfeel. I don't understand why you would add up to 180ppm of sulfates if you're after a smooth mouthfeel. If your water is high in sulfates you maybe should try RO water. Its not about the relationship caso4/cacl, but how much you have.

A beer with high amounts of both will feel full, round, sweet-ish at the impact, and dry out at the end. If it dries out it's not smooth imo.

 

[couchsending]

Malt contributes a ridiculous amount of sulfate and chloride.. no way you could tell the difference in 10ppm...

 

[day_trippr]

It's pretty clear the guy is talking about a 1:2 ratio of sulfate to chloride. But you sure did zing him

ahahaha!

 

[Callacave]

I have about 5PPM og sulfates in my water. I just add a bit of CaCl to maybe 10PPM, easy on the carbonation, and I get a pretty smooth mouthfeel. I don't understand why you would add up to 180ppm of sulfates if you're after a smooth mouthfeel. If your water is high in sulfates you maybe should try RO water. Its not about the relationship caso4/cacl, but how much you have.

A beer with high amounts of both will feel full, round, sweet-ish at the impact, and dry out at the end. If it dries out it's not smooth imo.

You're missing the point of how Shaun approaches his beers. It's not just about a smooth/full mouthfeel. His beers have this pillowy soft mouthfeel. So fuller body, but fades, and doesn't linger. Plus, none of the flavors are harsh like a lot of other NEIPA beers can be. It's more than just minerals.

 

[mikeroesoft]

You're missing the point of how Shaun approaches his beers. It's not just about a smooth/full mouthfeel. His beers have this pillowy soft mouthfeel. So fuller body, but fades, and doesn't linger. Plus, none of the flavors are harsh like a lot of other NEIPA beers can be. It's more than just minerals.

Absolutely. Many people think the key is paying attention to one or two process variables when in fact it's the whole process. Shaun Hill has an immense skill. He was a very well regarded brewer long before he started up Hill Farmstead.

 

[mikeroesoft]

I would be worried about contamination building up yeast from growlers. The taps at the brewery are likely cleaned quite regularly, but I don't imagine they're sanitized after every fill. Not to mention the growlers not being sanitized.

I agree with you on the yeast not being 1318. It wouldn't surprise me if he's using more than one yeast strain but I can't confirm.

 

[mikeroesoft]

I built up dregs from a bottle of Arthur and a bottle of Dorothy. I blended the two yeasts into one starter. I had a saison I fermented with Yeast Bay Saison Blend..... regular "Saison Flavor." However, I then bottled it in 750ml bottles and added some of the Hill Farmstead yeast to each bottle. The beer really transformed in the bottle..... citrus, tart, lemony..... reminded me a lot of Arthur. I am still waiting on it to carb up better at this point.



I since have used that yeast in another Saison as a primary fermentation strain. I just moved it from fermenter to conditioning/secondary keg after 18 days in primary (gravity 1.010). I have to say, I was not super impressed with it out of primary. It was ok. However, it certainly did not taste like the saison where I used it for bottling. Have to see where it goes from here. May end up adding Brett C. to it or something in a couple weeks if it does not seem like flavor is coming around a little better.

I will definitely add it at bottling again though to see if I can replicate the first results in regard to flavor

Pitching HF dregs in secondary will be alright as long as there is nothing left for the bottling yeast to consume. Pitching a starter built from HF dregs into primary will give you a beer that's been fermented primarily by their bottling strain.

I do know that he's used 1118 at some point for bottle conditioning. I would doubt it's used for all the bottled beers, but some.

 

[mikeroesoft]

Sorry, repeat post

 

[Smellyglove]

You're missing the point of how Shaun approaches his beers. It's not just about a smooth/full mouthfeel. His beers have this pillowy soft mouthfeel. So fuller body, but fades, and doesn't linger. Plus, none of the flavors are harsh like a lot of other NEIPA beers can be. It's more than just minerals.

I've never had one of those beers..

I was more about the sulfate PPM. I know there's a lot more to a good beer than just the minerals, but i was a bit ??? when I read the high sulfate content and ending up with a beer which this thread is about. I might be wrong, but I don't associate high so4 content with a pillowy beer.

 

[TheHairyHop]

As an update, a highish FG and krausening seems to go a long way for me. Still haven't nailed this though

 

[specharka]

As an update, a highish FG and krausening seems to go a long way for me. Still haven't nailed this though

Dorothy finishes @ 1.006 and Table Dorothy @ 1.004. It’s not a highish FG you should be chasing. Everett finishes really high but that’s an entirely different demon.

As an aside I built up a starter from both of those beers and don’t think there’s any viable Saccharomyces left in my culture. It attenuated from 1.046 -> 1.007 within 6 weeks but there’s little, if any mouthfeel there. The pH did drop like crazy, down to 3.5 before dry hopping (this is in 27 IBU wort too). Thinking I might just have Brett + LAB left based on observations alone.

Gonna reuse the culture cuz there’s some amazing lemon and citrus esters here, but I am gonna have to co-pitch a saison strain next time, probably 3726 or 3724.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Dorothy finishes @ 1.006 and Table Dorothy @ 1.004. It’s not a highish FG you should be chasing. Everett finishes really high but that’s an entirely different demon.

As an aside I built up a starter from both of those beers and don’t think there’s any viable Saccharomyces left in my culture. It attenuated from 1.046 -> 1.007 within 6 weeks but there’s little, if any mouthfeel there. The pH did drop like crazy, down to 3.5 before dry hopping (this is in 27 IBU wort too). Thinking I might just have Brett + LAB left based on observations alone.

Gonna reuse the culture cuz there’s some amazing lemon and citrus esters here, but I am gonna have to co-pitch a saison strain next time, probably 3726 or 3724.

I think that there is more than one thing going on for the mouth feel. From my experience, HF beers do not universally have a fantastic pillowy character. The lower FG ones tend to be missing the full experience. While I'm not insisting that a decent FG is mandatory, it sure helps.

 

[couchsending]

Dorothy finishes @ 1.006 and Table Dorothy @ 1.004. It’s not a highish FG you should be chasing. Everett finishes really high but that’s an entirely different demon.

As an aside I built up a starter from both of those beers and don’t think there’s any viable Saccharomyces left in my culture. It attenuated from 1.046 -> 1.007 within 6 weeks but there’s little, if any mouthfeel there. The pH did drop like crazy, down to 3.5 before dry hopping (this is in 27 IBU wort too). Thinking I might just have Brett + LAB left based on observations alone.

Gonna reuse the culture cuz there’s some amazing lemon and citrus esters here, but I am gonna have to co-pitch a saison strain next time, probably 3726 or 3724.

They bottle with wine yeast. I've had success pitching their dregs in secondary but would hesitate cofermenting in primary. There's
no real reason to. Their Brett strain (or whatever it is) produces a decent amount of acid on it's own so it's possible that there actually
isn't any LAB in there. PH of most of their standard saisons is around 3.9. I'm sure someone has streaked dregs out on different media to determine this but I don't know if I've read that anywhere.

Their hoppy beers all definitely finish a little high. I believe Edward is 1.014 as is Walden which is only 4%. To me the mouthfeel is a combo of a lot of variables. Step mashing, water, pitch rate, natural carbonation (although I'm starting to second guess this at times), final gravity, etc.

 

[specharka]

They bottle with wine yeast. I've had success pitching their dregs in secondary but would hesitate cofermenting in primary. There's
no real reason to. Their Brett strain (or whatever it is) produces a decent amount of acid on it's own so it's possible that there actually
isn't any LAB in there. PH of most of their standard saisons is around 3.9. I'm sure someone has streaked dregs out on different media to determine this but I don't know if I've read that anywhere.

Their hoppy beers all definitely finish a little high. I believe Edward is 1.014 as is Walden which is only 4%. To me the mouthfeel is a combo of a lot of variables. Step mashing, water, pitch rate, natural carbonation (although I'm starting to second guess this at times), final gravity, etc.

Sure there is. I’ve fermented a rye farmhouse ale with 100% Arthur dregs before and it turned out fabulous. Best Saison I’ve ever made. Takes less time to attenuate and develop that characteristic light hay aroma.

I’ve also built starters from their clean beers (canned dregs from S+S #8) and the resulting beers were all between 77-79% AA. Think my hoppy wheat actually finished spot on 1.014. I just meant comparatively speaking they’re not “full” beers like most NEIPA recipes. I read a survey on CB&B where a few commercial NEIPAs were compared and WeldWerks Juicy Bits finished lowest @ 1.015.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Most Tree House beers finish below 1.014, and they're nearly the king of fluffy IPA mouthfeel. The trend of NEIPAs finishing above that is incorrect practice IMO. For example, I never had a NEIPA (New England is my first home) with lactose in it. In Colorado, it's pretty hard to find one without. It was my mistake to not provide specifics when I said "highish FG". I think anything above 1.015/8 is a bit too high

 

[leesmith]

They bottle with wine yeast. I've had success pitching their dregs in secondary but would hesitate cofermenting in primary. There's
no real reason to. Their Brett strain (or whatever it is) produces a decent amount of acid on it's own so it's possible that there actually
isn't any LAB in there. PH of most of their standard saisons is around 3.9. I'm sure someone has streaked dregs out on different media to determine this but I don't know if I've read that anywhere.

Their hoppy beers all definitely finish a little high. I believe Edward is 1.014 as is Walden which is only 4%. To me the mouthfeel is a combo of a lot of variables. Step mashing, water, pitch rate, natural carbonation (although I'm starting to second guess this at times), final gravity, etc.

Why are you second guessing the natural carbonation?

 

[thehaze]

How would you define natural carbonation? And would it be different and / or better, than say krausening?

 

[couchsending]

Natural carbonation is everything that not force carbonated.

krausening
Capping primary fermentation
Adding sugar or wort
Etc.