Achieving a silky/pillowy/creamy mouthfeel (a la Hill Farmstead)?

[wolfbrosbrewing]

That tall bottle you are referring to is from Hill Farmstead

 

[jammin]

That tall bottle you are referring to is from Hill Farmstead

uhh... are replying to the comment about leaf shape (syrup) bottle?

 

[Braufessor]

what brewery uses those cool leaf shaped bottles?

Yep - some Vermont Syrup to round out the shipment...... Maybe I will fill it with my RIS when it is done as a syrup bottle

 

[Braufessor]

You dirty ...... I wish I could sample every one of those beers. Although I drove 630 miles to New Glarus WI to get Raspberry Tart and Belgian Red. Hmmm

I am pretty lucky - I have a great trading partner out east. He makes lots of big beer runs up to Vermont. I supply him with Barrel Aged Stouts, DIPA's, etc.... from Toppling Goliath (a few minutes away), and he sends me all the great stuff from Vermont in exchange.

I probably shouldn't tell you that I am only 45 minutes from Wisconsin too, and will be picking up a bunch of New Glarus stuff on my way to Great Taste of the Midwest tomorrow

 

[wolfbrosbrewing]

Hahaha... Sorry didn't even notice that bottle! Was blinded by the rest!

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Final report, one week in the keg. Windsor works pretty well for this style. Carry on.

 

[interman]

Well my first batch of "New England" style APA, following the advice from this thread and the others has gone through a week of carbonation. Popped one to try, and it's freaking delicious. 1318, 17% oats, 3ish% acid malt, "ideal pale ale" water, 200g hallertau blanc on 25l with some warrior at 60.

I had my first US trip earlier this summer, visiting HF, Trillium, Treehouse, and many others. Color and mouthfeel wise the one I brewed now was surprisingly similar to the Nelson pale ale I tried at HF, but it does not have the ridiculous chewy mouthfeel of Treehouse - Green, which I guess is my new #1 as far as IPAs go. Still, that's a 2.5% stronger beer with slightly more SRM. Definitely getting somewhere. Currently got a slightly tweaked version using southern passion, which is such a fun hop. Thanks for the tips so far folks.

 

[hio3791]

I've been following this thread since the beginning. I have nothing to add except thank you's to everyone for the inspiration. Early in the thread, there were discussions on hop stands so I did my first hop stand. A BM Centennial Blonde inspired recipe. Used oats for mouthfeel with Centennial for FWH and 0 min and a load of citra for a 30 min stand. I was going for a flavorful, sessionable ale.

Fast forward 2 weeks and it's the most aromatic beer I've made. Best way to describe is as if I was blindfolded and given grapefruit juice. It tastes like a very nice blonde ale, nice malty / balanced bitterness but the nose is grapefruit heaven! It's quite refreshing!

 

[The_Glue]

So i tasted the first beer i made with these tips (Cl higher than SO4, low amounts of 60min bittering hops, 15% oats, ph control etc.)
The yeast I used was MJ Burton Ale, it didn't flocced.
Mouthfeel was far superior to anything I've made with US05.
I think the beer was too dry though, I kinda miss the crystal additions. On the other hand the OG was lowish, (1.053) malt bill was simple (Maris + Oats) and it was fermented warmer than the temperatures mentioned in this thread.

 

[Braufessor]

I have 2 batches going side-by-side right now. Both are all-citra beers. Only difference is one with 15% flaked, one without. Both are finishing up primary and almost ready for second round of dry hop. Everything else is the same to what I have been doing recently.

 

[Oldsock]

Planning another round with 1318 after it finishes up in a porter. Thinking of adding 4 lbs of malted oats to the mash for 12 gallons this time. I've got a pound of Nelson that is calling for me to do something, but I also have a bunch of Citra/Mosaic/Columbus that I'd like to use up. Good problem to have.

I'll be heading up to Boston this weekend, hoping to stop by both Tree House and Trillium.

 

[bierhaus15]

Forgot to post this, but I was in Burlington for the Vermont Brew Fest a while ago and tried a bunch of HF stuff on tap. Here is the list. All of these were full pints except for the Dortothy and Hans.

Society and Solitude #1 IPA (Cascade)
Double Citra IIPA (Citra dry hopped)
Dorothy Saison (Citra and Brett)
Society and Solitude #5 IIPA (US/NZ hops)
Susan IPA ( Riwaka, Citra, Simcoe)
Nelson PA (Nelson Sauvin)
Conduct of Life PA (Citra Amarillo)
Edward PA
Harlan IPA (Columbus)
Legitimacy IPA (Simcoe)
Excursions #4 IPA (NZ hops)
Everett Porter
Sankt Hans - Amber Saison

Basically, all were good but not crazy good and they did have a soft mouthfeel. From the flavor, I have a hard time believing they are using 1318, or at least what we get from Wyeast. Way too clean with almost no residual sweetness. Also, the hop character was much more subdued than expected, although I found a lot of the big name VT breweries had a similar soft and pillowy profile. Would wager hard water is the cause.

 

[55x11]

Off topic slightly but can one get HF in Boston area? In bottles? (I assume no draft anywhere except brewery?)

 

[drez77]

Off topic slightly but can one get HF in Boston area? In bottles? (I assume no draft anywhere except brewery?)

Armsby Abbey in Worcester usually has a few on tap.

 

[mosaicbrewer]

Forgot to post this, but I was in Burlington for the Vermont Brew Fest a while ago and tried a bunch of HF stuff on tap. Here is the list. All of these were full pints except for the Dortothy and Hans.

Society and Solitude #1 IPA (Cascade)
Double Citra IIPA (Citra dry hopped)
Dorothy Saison (Citra and Brett)
Society and Solitude #5 IIPA (US/NZ hops)
Susan IPA ( Riwaka, Citra, Simcoe)
Nelson PA (Nelson Sauvin)
Conduct of Life PA (Citra Amarillo)
Edward PA
Harlan IPA (Columbus)
Legitimacy IPA (Simcoe)
Excursions #4 IPA (NZ hops)
Everett Porter
Sankt Hans - Amber Saison

Basically, all were good but not crazy good and they did have a soft mouthfeel. From the flavor, I have a hard time believing they are using 1318, or at least what we get from Wyeast. Way too clean with almost no residual sweetness. Also, the hop character was much more subdued than expected, although I found a lot of the big name VT breweries had a similar soft and pillowy profile. Would wager hard water is the cause.

I was up in VT drinking his beers recently as well. The hoppy ones have changed from before the expansion IMO. I drank several with almost no nose at all. I hope he gets it dialed in soon. Something is off right now. Still good, not as mind boggling as before.

 

[g-star]

I found a lot of the big name VT breweries had a similar soft and pillowy profile. Would wager hard water is the cause.

Based on what? Most geological survey maps I've looked at show Vermont water to be nothing more than "slightly/moderately hard".

 

[BreezyBrew]

My take is this. They must be doing something to the water since you can't make a world class IPA and a world class stout with the same water.

So who is going to make the trip to VT and bring back some municipal water to brew with?

 

[mosaicbrewer]

waterbury has a published report

 

[gotbags-10]

My take is this. They must be doing something to the water since you can't make a world class IPA and a world class stout with the same water.

So who is going to make the trip to VT and bring back some municipal water to brew with?

No doubt ! Where are the Vermont home brewers at? They need to chime in.

 

[Colbizle]

My take is this. They must be doing something to the water since you can't make a world class IPA and a world class stout with the same water.

So who is going to make the trip to VT and bring back some municipal water to brew with?

Exactly. As we've discussed this previously, they are messing with their water in one way or another. Shaune Hill even flat out said he changes his water profile depending on the beer he is brewing.

 

[kaz4121]

Armsby Abbey in Worcester usually has a few on tap.

More than a few. They've routinely had 4-6 HF beers on tap every week for the past couple months.

 

[hopsandhops]

Went up to VT this weekend and visited the HF brewery.. man that place is really out there! Thankfully I had written the final directions down as there was 0 service and the GPS wanted to take us down a path that was clearly not a road.

Anyways, I have to second the opinion that they aren't using 1318. The beers just don't have that "berry" thing going on that I get from fermenting 1318 at 68 and the finish is much crisper; there's almost no residual sweetness. It also seems to be less hazy than I've been getting with 1318, without gelatin, even after a few weeks in the keg.

The mouthfeel is just incredible! I compared a growler of Society and Solitude #5 (which might be the perfect DIPA) we brought home to an IPA I have on tap with 14% oats, a big 60 minute charge and (2) 15 minute 3 oz WPs of Falconer's Flight at ~170* and ~135*.

I used the following water profile: Ca: 92, Mg: 19, Na: 22, S04: 73, Cl: 187, Bicarb: 16 and an estimated (still need a meter) mash Ph of 5.38.

My review is that the mid sip feel is pretty close, but the last, almost swallow is still too substantial. It just doesn't "evaporate" the same way.

My 2¢

 

[Colbizle]

Went up to VT this weekend and visited the HF brewery.. man that place is really out there! Thankfully I had written the final directions down as there was 0 service and the GPS wanted to take us down a path that was clearly not a road.

Anyways, I have to second the opinion that they aren't using 1318. The beers just don't have that "berry" thing going on that I get from fermenting 1318 at 68 and the finish is much crisper; there's almost no residual sweetness. It also seems to be less hazy than I've been getting with 1318, without gelatin, even after a few weeks in the keg.

The mouthfeel is just incredible! I compared a growler of Society and Solitude #5 (which might be the perfect DIPA) we brought home to an IPA I have on tap with 14% oats, a big 60 minute charge and (2) 15 minute 3 oz WPs of Falconer's Flight at ~170* and ~135*.

I used the following water profile: Ca: 92, Mg: 19, Na: 22, S04: 73, Cl: 187, Bicarb: 16 and an estimated (still need a meter) mash Ph of 5.38.

My review is that the mid sip feel is pretty close, but the last, almost swallow is still too substantial. It just doesn't "evaporate" the same way.

My 2¢

Good information, thank you for sharing. I've brewed about 6-7 batches with 1318 so far and I'm ready to try something else. The 15% oats are probably contributing too much mouthfeel in the finish. I'd lower the chloride a bit and cut the oats a bit too.

MY take is that 1318 is a beautifully unique soft yeast but there's qualities about it that I'm starting to not like.

I still think that if HF can achieve this "mouthfeel" in all of his beers from saisons to pale ales, then it's not just yeast that's making his beer feel this way but a combination of water chemistry and certain "softer" yeast. There are plenty of ale yeast out there that finish soft. Namely boring ol' wyeast 1056 and less boring wyeast 1272 as well.

He could be using an american ale yeast.

Did you pick up any esters on his ales that would indicate a fruity american yeast or an english yeast? Or were they cleaner?

I'm also curious, since this experience is fresh in your mind, what level carb would you say HF beers are at? Low to low/med or med? I find that carb levels significantly impact mouthfeel too.

Cheers!

 

[Kiichi]

My future contribution to this thread is going to be an extreme one: A hoppy saison.
This is since I recently served a saison to a homebrew mate of mine (who produces some good stuff) and he reconed my brew had around 6%...while it only had 3.6%. Thing is that I was using French Saison yeast, one that is known to give really good mouthfeel. General feedback on that beer was very similar. Easy drinker, but full, not lacking.

Now I am about to brew a lot more saisons and use up my gigantic hop storage I have accumulated.

I will use a good amount of chloride, a yeast that helps with mouthfeel while being dry, and using good sulfate according to this article posted in another thread I can´t recall. It´s from Shaun before he opened HF. Does only talk about Saisons, but does in a way tell you something about IPAs as well. I´ll use if for saisons though.

http://archive.is/VkRos

 

[Colbizle]

My future contribution to this thread is going to be an extreme one: A hoppy saison.
This is since I recently served a saison to a homebrew mate of mine (who produces some good stuff) and he reconed my brew had around 6%...while it only had 3.6%. Thing is that I was using French Saison yeast, one that is known to give really good mouthfeel. General feedback on that beer was very similar. Easy drinker, but full, not lacking.

Now I am about to brew a lot more saisons and use up my gigantic hop storage I have accumulated.

I will use a good amount of chloride, a yeast that helps with mouthfeel while being dry, and using good sulfate according to this article posted in another thread I can´t recall. It´s from Shaun before he opened HF. Does only talk about Saisons, but does in a way tell you something about IPAs as well. I´ll use if for saisons though.

Article?

 

[kaz4121]

Anyone know if HF filters their hoppy beers? I would lean toward saying no due to that beautiful haze but am not positive. If they don't, why can't we just grow some up from a fresh growler?

 

[kaz4121]

Good information, thank you for sharing. I've brewed about 6-7 batches with 1318 so far and I'm ready to try something else. The 15% oats are probably contributing too much mouthfeel in the finish. I'd lower the chloride a bit and cut the oats a bit too.

MY take is that 1318 is a beautifully unique soft yeast but there's qualities about it that I'm starting to not like.

I still think that if HF can achieve this "mouthfeel" in all of his beers from saisons to pale ales, then it's not just yeast that's making his beer feel this way but a combination of water chemistry and certain "softer" yeast. There are plenty of ale yeast out there that finish soft. Namely boring ol' wyeast 1056 and less boring wyeast 1272 as well.

He could be using an american ale yeast.

Did you pick up any esters on his ales that would indicate a fruity american yeast or an english yeast? Or were they cleaner?

I'm also curious, since this experience is fresh in your mind, what level carb would you say HF beers are at? Low to low/med or med? I find that carb levels significantly impact mouthfeel too.

Cheers!

I would guess he is using something fruity because IIRC, Shaun was using Conan for a long while before switching over to something different in the past few years. If he strayed too far away from the Conan with something like a standard American Ale Yeast, I bet it would be noticeable. I'll try to dig up the reference that cited this.

 

[hopsandhops]

Good information, thank you for sharing. I've brewed about 6-7 batches with 1318 so far and I'm ready to try something else. The 15% oats are probably contributing too much mouthfeel in the finish. I'd lower the chloride a bit and cut the oats a bit too.

MY take is that 1318 is a beautifully unique soft yeast but there's qualities about it that I'm starting to not like.

I still think that if HF can achieve this "mouthfeel" in all of his beers from saisons to pale ales, then it's not just yeast that's making his beer feel this way but a combination of water chemistry and certain "softer" yeast. There are plenty of ale yeast out there that finish soft. Namely boring ol' wyeast 1056 and less boring wyeast 1272 as well.

He could be using an american ale yeast.

Did you pick up any esters on his ales that would indicate a fruity american yeast or an english yeast? Or were they cleaner?

I'm also curious, since this experience is fresh in your mind, what level carb would you say HF beers are at? Low to low/med or med? I find that carb levels significantly impact mouthfeel too.

Cheers!

Agreed on the oats and chloride. I also think I need to up the sulfate. The crisp finish on the HF feels like there's a good amount of sulfate in there.

I have another IPA fermenting currently that was hopbursted to 92 IBU and had a 3.5 oz, 20 minute, 170* steep. 6% oats and the following profile: Ca: 79, Mg: 18, Na: 22, S04: 99, Cl: 143, Bicarb: 16 and an estimated 5.32 mash Ph, so I'll see how that one compares. It was brewed before I went to VT, but the adjustments seem appropriate after this comparo. It was a simultaneous comparo for the hop schedules, S04/Cl amounts, and this mouthfeel thing.

I agree on 1318. I really like the softness and fruity/berry thing, but its a little much sometime. I didn't save any on this last brew, so I'll be moving on for now. I fermented at 68* on the 3 brews I've done with it, based on what I've read. Maybe a lower 60's temp would lower the esters, but this thread says otherwise.

I didn't pick up any obvious esters in the HF stuff, but I'm not great with picking up esters to begin with, so take that as you will. It didn't seem like a chico strain and I've yet to try 1272. They do all have a consistent bready note, but I can't tell if that's malt or yeast at this point.

The carb differs by the brew. I would call the S&S #5 medium and the growler of Legitimacy we had as light/med. The Legitimacy had much less of that airy feel and I find it interesting that the 8.1% brew was softer on the palette than the 6.6% brew.

I have a bottle of Arthur and Nordic Saison in the fridge, so I'm interested in seeing how those feel.

 

[Colbizle]

Agreed on the oats and chloride. I also think I need to up the sulfate. The crisp finish on the HF feels like there's a good amount of sulfate in there.

I have another IPA fermenting currently that was hopbursted to 92 IBU and had a 3.5 oz, 20 minute, 170* steep. 6% oats and the following profile: Ca: 79, Mg: 18, Na: 22, S04: 99, Cl: 143, Bicarb: 16 and an estimated 5.32 mash Ph, so I'll see how that one compares. It was brewed before I went to VT, but the adjustments seem appropriate after this comparo. It was a simultaneous comparo for the hop schedules, S04/Cl amounts, and this mouthfeel thing.

I agree on 1318. I really like the softness and fruity/berry thing, but its a little much sometime. I didn't save any on this last brew, so I'll be moving on for now. I fermented at 68* on the 3 brews I've done with it, based on what I've read. Maybe a lower 60's temp would lower the esters, but this thread says otherwise.

I didn't pick up any obvious esters in the HF stuff, but I'm not great with picking up esters to begin with, so take that as you will. It didn't seem like a chico strain and I've yet to try 1272. They do all have a consistent bready note, but I can't tell if that's malt or yeast at this point.

The carb differs by the brew. I would call the S&S #5 medium and the growler of Legitimacy we had as light/med. The Legitimacy had much less of that airy feel and I find it interesting that the 8.1% brew was softer on the palette than the 6.6% brew.

I have a bottle of Arthur and Nordic Saison in the fridge, so I'm interested in seeing how those feel.

Wow, just checked out Grassroots Legitimacy IPA on beer advocate:

India Pale Ale brewed with 2-row malted barley, oats, and citrusy hops from the Pacific Northwest. Dry hopped copiously with Simcoe. Its sessionable drinkability belies its true IPA nature.

Looks like he's using adjuncts in this one?!

 

[hopsandhops]

Wow, just checked out Grassroots Legitimacy IPA on beer advocate:

India Pale Ale brewed with 2-row malted barley, oats, and citrusy hops from the Pacific Northwest. Dry hopped copiously with Simcoe. Its sessionable drinkability belies its true IPA nature.

Looks like he's using adjuncts in this one?!

I found that too and after having a similar reaction and researching accordingly, it turns out the Grassroots Legitimacy was a collaboration brew. This didn't say anything about Grassroots or a collab brew at the brewery. It also didn't really smell like it was "Dry hopped copiously with Simcoe". It was ridiculously drinkable though. It came off as a pale ale until it warmed up.

Maybe an email is in order...