Accidentally bought a lager kit

[Quyzi]

I wasn't paying attention and I bought a lager kit. Using WLP830 (German Lager Yeast) which ferments optimally at 50-55*. I'm concerned that there are more differences between lagers and ales than just the fermenting temperature.

I believe that I should make a starter. I did recently build a stir plate and I've got a 2L flask, so I'm set up to make a starter. This is a 5 gallon batch. How large of a starter should I make, and how long should I let it go before I pitch it?

Are there any other differences that I should be aware of besides fermentation temp and duration? I'd like my first lager to come out right.

Thank you!

 

[oze152]

Go to this site: www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html by Jamil. It allows you to enter the type of beer and expected OG and will tell you how big you starter should be. In my experience, with one smackpack/vial of yeast for a lager, it will reccomend that you make a pretty large starter. Make the starter 3-4 days ahead of time, cold crash in the fridge, and then decoct the liquid and use just the slurry.

There is a great sticky on this site for making a yeast starter if you need help.

 

[kingwood-kid]

If you can keep the beer fermenting at 55, then this in't a big problem. Lagers tend to be cleaner and less fruity/estery than ales. They need about double the yeast to start with, and take a little longer. If you can't keep the beer at 55, I'd get a different yeast that ferments at a temp you can maintain and seems appropriate for this beer.

 

[Quyzi]

I can keep it at 55* now. I picked up a wine bottle chiller and am adding a temperature control circuit to it to more accurately control the temperature. I'm going to make a 2L starter and let it sit for 3 days before brewing. That should provide enough healthy yeast for a good fermentation. What is cold crashing? I couldn't find it listed in any of the terminology links.

 

[Yooper]

I can keep it at 55* now. I picked up a wine bottle chiller and am adding a temperature control circuit to it to more accurately control the temperature. I'm going to make a 2L starter and let it sit for 3 days before brewing. That should provide enough healthy yeast for a good fermentation. What is cold crashing? I couldn't find it listed in any of the terminology links.

Depending on the OG of your beer, a 2L starter is probably not nearly big enough. Consult mrmalty.com here: http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html

As an example, a lager with an OG of 1.045 with yeast made one month ago, requires 8 liters of starter. Once the starter is done, you put it in the fridge for 3 days, so the yeast drops out and then you can pour off the spent wort and not put it in your beer.

Cool the wort as cold as you can, and then add the yeast to it and allow the temperature to rise up to 55 (or whatever your fermentation temperature is). Pitching cold like that and then allowing the temperature to rise really gets the yeast going and makes a nice "clean" fermentation.

 

[Quyzi]

Yooper to the rescue again

Good to know what cold crashing is. Without the liquid mixed in, what is the best way to get all of the slurry out?

I looked at the mrmalty calculator before. Seems that White Labs doesn't put a production date on the vials, just a use by date. Or at least that is how my vial is. If I use it within the next week, it suggests a 2.1L starter size. The OG of this brew is 1.060. It's this recipe here.

 

[chickypad]

The production date for White labs is 4 months prior to the "best by" date.

I don't think you're reading MrMalty correctly. For a 1.060 lager with a single vial of yeast produced today and a stir plate I am seeing that you need a 4.5 L starter, which sounds much more like it. Starting with 2 vials of fresh yeast you could get away with a 2L starter. You need to move the slide bar at the bottom to choose how many vials to get a bigger/smaller starter.

 

[oze152]

Good to know what cold crashing is. Without the liquid mixed in, what is the best way to get all of the slurry out?

After you have cold crashed your starter pour almost all of the liquid off leaving just enough liquid to swirl the slurry up off the bottom of your vessel before pitching the slurry into you fermentation vessel.

 

[Quyzi]

The production date for White labs is 4 months prior to the "best by" date.

I don't think you're reading MrMalty correctly. For a 1.060 lager with a single vial of yeast produced today and a stir plate I am seeing that you need a 4.5 L starter, which sounds much more like it. Starting with 2 vials of fresh yeast you could get away with a 2L starter. You need to move the slide bar at the bottom to choose how many vials to get a bigger/smaller starter.

I see what you mean, I didn't notice that part. Looks like I need a second vial of yeast then. Lagers are definitely more complicated than I had originally thought. Good learning experience though

I got a "yeast fuel" nutrient capsule. Should I add this to the wort or to the starter?

 

[JonM]

Or just get some ale yeast and make a nice clean cream ale? You can always do a lager later when you've had more time to read and prepare. Plus, it'll be winter soon and easier to find a cold place to lager the brew.

 

[Quyzi]

Or just get some ale yeast and make a nice clean cream ale? You can always do a lager later when you've had more time to read and prepare. Plus, it'll be winter soon and easier to find a cold place to lager the brew.

A couple days ago I went and bought a wine bottle chiller to use as a fermentation chamber. I'm going to brew this lager if it kills me.

 

[JonM]

Nice! I got a wine chiller a couple years ago and it has worked really well as a ferm chamber.

 

[Quyzi]

Nice! I got a wine chiller a couple years ago and it has worked really well as a ferm chamber.

I've got parts in the mail to build a little unit to control the temperature of it exactly. Did you modify your chiller like that? I'm curious how other people have done it. I'm going to use a temperature sensor and microcontroller with an LCD to do it

 

[Quyzi]

Alright, I made a 2L starter using 2 cups of light dme. Then let it stir for 3 days (Friday night to Sunday night). Now it's in the fridge.

Here is my brewday plan.

I think by Wednesday it should be settled out nicely and I'll pull it out a few hours before I brew to bring it back to room temp,.
Then, I'll decant most of the liquid off and let it continue to warm up to room temp while brewing to avoid shocking it.

The OG should be around 1.060. After cooling the wort down to room temp, I'll pitch the starter and cap it off with an airlock.

Then, I wait until I see signs of fermentation and cool it down slowly over time to between 50*F and 55*F.

After about 10 days, it should be finished fermenting and I'll raise the temp to between 60*F and 70*F and let it sit for two days.

Finally, I'll bottle it and go through the painful process of waiting for it to condition.

Does this sound correct, or have I missed a most important step somewhere?

 

[chickypad]

Then, I wait until I see signs of fermentation and cool it down slowly over time to between 50*F and 55*F.

I don't like the idea of pitching hot then bringing it down after "signs of fermentation". Off flavors are more likely to occur early, so why not pitch at the proper temp to begin with?

 

[Quyzi]

I don't like the idea of pitching hot then bringing it down after "signs of fermentation". Off flavors are more likely to occur early, so why not pitch at the proper temp to begin with?

I was just following the instructions that came with the recipe kit. I've had other kits from them before without having any problems. :/

Pitchable Liquid Yeast: Let the yeast warm up to 72 - 78 degrees F. The longer the yeast sets at this temperature range, up to 24 hours, the faster the beer will start fermenting. Shake the yeast container well and pour into the wort and stir/aerate well. Dry Yeast: Sprinkle the yeast around the top of the wort and stir well.

Cold Fermentation: Put the lid on the fermenter with the airlock installed (fill airlock 1/3 with water). After 12-36 hours this mixture will begin to churn and produce CO2. Once you see signs of fermentation, slowly cool temperature of the wort to 50° - 55°F (about 1° per hour). If you do not see any activity after 24 hours, then remove the lid and vigorously stir the wort with a sanitized spoon. After 10 days since the wort started fermenting, the mixture will calm down and the excess proteins will settle at the bottom of the primary fermenter. At this time, raise the temperature to 60° - 70°F for 2 days to improve flavor. Check the specific gravity to make sure it is within 3-4 points of the FG and then carefully move the fermenter full of beer to a counter top. Be careful not to disturb the sediment on the bottom.

 

[Yooper]

I was just following the instructions that came with the recipe kit. I've had other kits from them before without having any problems. :/

Yeah, but those are bad instructions for a lager. Trust me!

If you pitch warm, and wait for signs of fermentation, the yeast reproduction phase is over, and then fermentation has started. That is when esters and other flavors are produced. Then, by the time you get an active fermentation temperature dropped to where you want it, fermentation would be nearly over.

Those instructions are supposed to help compensate for underpitching. It grows yeast faster, yes, but doesn't make the best lager.

 

[Quyzi]

Yeah, but those are bad instructions for a lager. Trust me!

If you pitch warm, and wait for signs of fermentation, the yeast reproduction phase is over, and then fermentation has started. That is when esters and other flavors are produced. Then, by the time you get an active fermentation temperature dropped to where you want it, fermentation would be nearly over.

Those instructions are supposed to help compensate for underpitching. It grows yeast faster, yes, but doesn't make the best lager.

Alright, this is why I ask questions before I do dumb things. So I should cool it down to room temp, pitch the starter, and drop it to 50-55* then? Starter has been in the fridge for 3 days, going to decant it when I get home from work.

OT: Yooper, your dead guy clone came out amazing, by the way. Just wanted to thank you for sharing it.

 

[william_shakes_beer]

FWIW: I did a 10 gallon Shiner bock clone and split it into 2 5 gallon fermenters. One I pitched a Lager yeast and placed in my Ferm chamber at the published temp. The other I pitched a clean ale yeast ( Nottingham. I believe) and tossed into a spare shower in my basement. It's difficult to discern any significant difference after 30 60 days conditioning. Shiner is a fairly malty recipie, so a lighter grain bill may show more of a delta.

 

[chickypad]

So I should cool it down to room temp, pitch the starter, and drop it to 50-55* then?

Yooper spelled it out in her first post. Get it cold then pitch:

Cool the wort as cold as you can, and then add the yeast to it and allow the temperature to rise up to 55 (or whatever your fermentation temperature is). Pitching cold like that and then allowing the temperature to rise really gets the yeast going and makes a nice "clean" fermentation.

 

[Quyzi]

Whoops, I completely missed that. My mistake. Thank you

 

[chickypad]

Let us know how it turns out!

 

[Quyzi]

Let us know how it turns out!

Definitely will

 

[Quyzi]

So far, so good. That jumble of wires is half of my fridge control. It's not finished yet, obviously.

 

[Trokair]

That looks really clean. My lagers haven't been so lucky thus far. I've also pitched them too warm though.

I think I read that you were going to do the actual lagering after bottling? I do my lagering between 37-40 F in the primary fermenter. Not sure if it will work the same way if it is already bottled.

 

[Quyzi]

That looks really clean. My lagers haven't been so lucky thus far. I've also pitched them too warm though.

I think I read that you were going to do the actual lagering after bottling? I do my lagering between 37-40 F in the primary fermenter. Not sure if it will work the same way if it is already bottled.

Let me get this straight. Lagering is just keeping it cold for a few weeks? I can get it down to 40* or so in my chiller easily. Wasn't planning on anything yet, I had just read the instructions given to me with the kit and thats what it told me to do.

 

[Yooper]

Let me get this straight. Lagering is just keeping it cold for a few weeks? I can get it down to 40* or so in my chiller easily. Wasn't planning on anything yet, I had just read the instructions given to me with the kit and thats what it told me to do.

"Lagering" means cold storage. Typically, a smoother and crisper lager will result from lagering colder, for longer. I like to lager at 34 degrees for one week for each 8-10 points of OG. (That comes from George Fix).

To make a lager, I'd ferment until nearly done, raise the temperature for the diacetyl rest and then rack when the beer is at FG. After the beer is racked, the lagering can be started. For a 1.060 beer, I'd lager for 6-8 weeks at 34 degrees.

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

Let me get this straight. Lagering is just keeping it cold for a few weeks? I can get it down to 40* or so in my chiller easily. Wasn't planning on anything yet, I had just read the instructions given to me with the kit and thats what it told me to do.

Yes, "lagering" refers to aging beer at cold temperature. The term "lager" refers to a beer that is fermented and aged at cold temperatures. This cold brewing process is responsible for the "crisp" "clean" flavor that most layers are known for

 

[Quyzi]

"Lagering" means cold storage. Typically, a smoother and crisper lager will result from lagering colder, for longer. I like to lager at 34 degrees for one week for each 8-10 points of OG. (That comes from George Fix).

To make a lager, I'd ferment until nearly done, raise the temperature for the diacetyl rest and then rack when the beer is at FG. After the beer is racked, the lagering can be started. For a 1.060 beer, I'd lager for 6-8 weeks at 34 degrees.

Crap I need a secondary don't I.

 

[Quyzi]

Crap I need a secondary don't I.

Just recalled that I've got my old plastic bucket primary. Should be fine using that as a secondary in my fridge.

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

Just recalled that I've got my old plastic bucket primary. Should be fine using that as a secondary in my fridge.

A carboy would be better. Normally I do not worry about the headspace in a bucket for short secondarys (a couple weeks), but excessive headspace and oxidation could become a concern over a long lagering period.

Can you pick up another carboy or better bottle for secondarying this brew?

 

[Quyzi]

A carboy would be better. Normally I do not worry about the headspace in a bucket for short secondarys (a couple weeks), but excessive headspace and oxidation could become a concern over a long lagering period.

Can you pick up another carboy or better bottle for secondarying this brew?

I could. My lhbs isn't exactly local. Something of a half hour drive either way. The area has a tendency to make peopleofwalmart.com look like the playboy mansion. The only things I can come up with are to leave it in the primary through lagering, or using the bucket as a secondary.

 

[Yooper]

Just recalled that I've got my old plastic bucket primary. Should be fine using that as a secondary in my fridge.

I'd either skip the lagering then, and do it in the bottle, or get a carboy. Headspace is the death of a good beer, especially if in the bucket a long time.

If you read the threads on the forum, "is this infected?", it's ALWAYS a beer in secondary and/or one with lots of headspace! I would not risk it. I'd either get a 5 gallon carboy, or bottle and then lager in the bottles.

 

[Quyzi]

I'd either skip the lagering then, and do it in the bottle, or get a carboy. Headspace is the death of a good beer, especially if in the bucket a long time.

If you read the threads on the forum, "is this infected?", it's ALWAYS a beer in secondary and/or one with lots of headspace! I would not risk it. I'd either get a 5 gallon carboy, or bottle and then lager in the bottles.

By lager in the bottles, you mean storing them really cold for a few weeks, yes? That is entirely doable. I'll look into getting a BB for my next lager. I've read too many horror stories about glass carboys to buy another.

Thank you again, Yooper. You are an endless font of information!

 

[Quyzi]

Since I plan on lagering in the bottles, what is the best way to achieve diacetyl rest? A buttery lager is not what I'm aiming for.

 

[Quyzi]

I let it sit and lager for a while. I wound up getting a 5 1/2 gallon carboy for it and transferred it. Very little airspace above the beer. That was a few weeks ago, now it's in bottles. I opened the "**** bottle", the one that wasn't completely filled and had some of the big chunks of trub that worked its way into the bottling bucket. It was delicious, despite the chunks and the lack of good carbonation. I need to let it sit for a while and age appropriately. Very clean, crisp, delicious, satisfying beer. One of the best ones I've brewed so far. Has a nice dark color and smells amazing in a glass. Wouldn't have made it this good without you guys help. Thank you!

 

[DrummerBoySeth]

Glad we could help. Good beer is the REAL reason we are all here!