chumpsteak
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So how do you keep a supply of healthy lacto around? Make a starter and then keep it at room temp or in the fridge? Feed it every couple of weeks?
Accelerated Sour Beer Process
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chumpsteak
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I'm now pretty sure that the layer of hop residue from a 100 batches of hoppy beers in my kettle is what did this batch in. The pH stopped at 3.8 and nothing I do gets it dropping again. I've added probiotics 3 different times now and 5 gallons of this 10 gallon batch started to spontaneously ferment so I had to pitch sacc/brett. The other 5 gallons is now in the house in a warm water batch to hopefully get the pH down.
I will be boiling sour beers in my hot liquor tank from now on as the lacto I'm using seems to be extremely hop sensitive.
Figured I would drop an update on my own quick sour experience (pilfered from Chad Yakobson)...
Four weeks after co-pitching a culture of L. Brevis (WLP672) and Brettanomyces (OYL-218) into a Rare Barrel red ale base, the gravity has stabilized around 1.007 (from 1.054), and the beer is notably acidic. I haven't taken a pH measurement but I would estimate it to be around 3.3-3.4. There's a some fruit punchy aromatics and a hint of the chewy malt base that survived the souring process. The beer was fermented between 77-79F.
I dropped a French oak spiral into the beer to age for a few more weeks prior to bottling. This beer would make an excellent base for fruiting additions but I wanted to leave this pilot batch unadulterated. Although I haven't tasted the finished product yet, I'm tempted to label this experiment a success. Definitely worth the attempt.
Four weeks after co-pitching a culture of L. Brevis (WLP672) and Brettanomyces (OYL-218) into a Rare Barrel red ale base, the gravity has stabilized around 1.007 (from 1.054), and the beer is notably acidic. I haven't taken a pH measurement but I would estimate it to be around 3.3-3.4. There's a some fruit punchy aromatics and a hint of the chewy malt base that survived the souring process. The beer was fermented between 77-79F.
I dropped a French oak spiral into the beer to age for a few more weeks prior to bottling. This beer would make an excellent base for fruiting additions but I wanted to leave this pilot batch unadulterated. Although I haven't tasted the finished product yet, I'm tempted to label this experiment a success. Definitely worth the attempt.
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ShareBrewing
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The partially soured hibiscus orange Wit has been in the bottles a little over a week now and it's delicious! The pH at bottling was only 3.85, making it a very subtly tart (due to the lactic acid) but the real perception of acidity/tartness comes from the addition of the hibiscus. I used 2.5 oz (dried, and frozen for days prior to adding) per 5 gal. Resulted in a great pink color and pungent floral berry tartness. I swear it tastes more like a tart blueberry than if I actually DID add berries to the beer. Overall, 21g of fresh navel orange rind/zest was added to secondary, along with 12oz of fresh squeezed OJ - used about 4 lbs to juice off. Can't say I could happier with this beer but also can't wait for it to get good in a few weeks!
Learning my lesson though, I feel that maybe it'd be best to use at least half the wort to "partial kettle sour" the beer or it won't reach a low enough pH after it's added back to the main wort or main fermentation. But the drop in pH mid-fermentation really got the yeast chugging through the beer unlike anything I'd ever seen. So there's that... but IMO maybe a full kettle sour would be best if you want to add a fair amount of acidity, fast. Because pH is a logarithmic scale, so only souring 2 gal of the 5 won't drop it that much.
Before i talk about the other speed sour I just started I wanted to pose a question for thought.
Could adding certain ingredients help to "speed up" the process of making a sour? This could be by adding perceived sourness or maybe classic funky beer-style flavors? The hibiscus really got me thinking because the beer tastes like it's at 3.4 pH but it's well above that.
Learning my lesson though, I feel that maybe it'd be best to use at least half the wort to "partial kettle sour" the beer or it won't reach a low enough pH after it's added back to the main wort or main fermentation. But the drop in pH mid-fermentation really got the yeast chugging through the beer unlike anything I'd ever seen. So there's that... but IMO maybe a full kettle sour would be best if you want to add a fair amount of acidity, fast. Because pH is a logarithmic scale, so only souring 2 gal of the 5 won't drop it that much.
Before i talk about the other speed sour I just started I wanted to pose a question for thought.
Could adding certain ingredients help to "speed up" the process of making a sour? This could be by adding perceived sourness or maybe classic funky beer-style flavors? The hibiscus really got me thinking because the beer tastes like it's at 3.4 pH but it's well above that.
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ShareBrewing
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Brewed a barleywine over the weekend and did the traditional parti gyle process to get wort for another speed sour. This was my first time brewing a beer this big all-grain (est OG ~1.100), and my equipment limited me in the amount of grain and water I could combine, so it ended up being a pretty darn thick mash. This really caused some problems. Was supposed to get about 10 gal of barleywine but only got about 6. Grist used is below.
87.5% Pale malt
7.5% Rye
5% Cara-pils
I was only able to drain about 7.5 gal of wort off the thick mash for a boil of the barleywine. But I heated 5 gal of water to add to the (slightly) drained mash for a second mash. The mash temp was pretty hard to dial in for both of the mashes due to thickness. Hot pockets were an issue, super heated air bubbles would form beneath the grain bed, etc. Many lessons to be learned on this one...
So the mash was around 153-156 the majority of the time so it really gave some body and sweetness to the barleywine, but most importantly it will give some complex dextrins to the sour beer (OG 1.058) which the Brett will slowly break down. Maybe this could drive the funky flavors of the beer.
It's kettle-souring right now with a nearly 2L culture of OYL-605. Added lactic acid to drop pH to 4.50 prior to pitch. Will probably boil it tonight and add just a hint of hops. WLP648 (Brett Brux) will be pitched. Will try to bottle this one within 6 months and see the results.
87.5% Pale malt
7.5% Rye
5% Cara-pils
I was only able to drain about 7.5 gal of wort off the thick mash for a boil of the barleywine. But I heated 5 gal of water to add to the (slightly) drained mash for a second mash. The mash temp was pretty hard to dial in for both of the mashes due to thickness. Hot pockets were an issue, super heated air bubbles would form beneath the grain bed, etc. Many lessons to be learned on this one...
So the mash was around 153-156 the majority of the time so it really gave some body and sweetness to the barleywine, but most importantly it will give some complex dextrins to the sour beer (OG 1.058) which the Brett will slowly break down. Maybe this could drive the funky flavors of the beer.
It's kettle-souring right now with a nearly 2L culture of OYL-605. Added lactic acid to drop pH to 4.50 prior to pitch. Will probably boil it tonight and add just a hint of hops. WLP648 (Brett Brux) will be pitched. Will try to bottle this one within 6 months and see the results.
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ShareBrewing
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Boiled the 4.5 gal of soured wort after 72 hours. Added 17g of Equinox pellets (14.2%AA) for 20 min to get 18-19 IBU.
My faulty pH meter was showing 3.78 prior to boil, but the taste certainly indicated it being much, much lower. Done a few berliners in the past that all got to about 3.4-3.5 within 1 or 2 days of souring w/ OYL-605 and this one was far more tart than even those (maybe 3.25-3.3). It had firm tartness and pucker on the back end, even through the malty sweetness. The brett certainly doesn't mind.
After a week I added a pound of red bamboo honey each to the barleywine and sour. 1/2 gal of pure sweet cherry juice was added to the sour. The final boil volume was only 4 gal so I wanted to raise that bit and add more sugar.
Let's see how this is in a few months! Wouldn't mind making something similar to Founder's Frootwood. It's delicious!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1493392178.278075.jpg
My faulty pH meter was showing 3.78 prior to boil, but the taste certainly indicated it being much, much lower. Done a few berliners in the past that all got to about 3.4-3.5 within 1 or 2 days of souring w/ OYL-605 and this one was far more tart than even those (maybe 3.25-3.3). It had firm tartness and pucker on the back end, even through the malty sweetness. The brett certainly doesn't mind.
After a week I added a pound of red bamboo honey each to the barleywine and sour. 1/2 gal of pure sweet cherry juice was added to the sour. The final boil volume was only 4 gal so I wanted to raise that bit and add more sugar.
Let's see how this is in a few months! Wouldn't mind making something similar to Founder's Frootwood. It's delicious!
View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1493392178.278075.jpg
Morrey
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^^^This could be one way albeit a way that requires at least some attention and monitoring.
Dry caplets of L Plantarum from Swanson work well either as a dry pitch straight into wort or when creating a starter. 5 caplets per 5.5G batch is the usual pitch rate. This strain specific lacto sours nicely at room temps and quickly-usually within 2 days.
crusader1612
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Just mashing this in now.
Flanders red base malt 1.060
4ibu at 60.
90 min boil and then cooled to 40C and plantation pitched. Hold at 35. Co2 directly into wort and covered/sealed.
48 hour after pitching TYB saison Brett blend with wlp648 and 653 as well.
THEN AFTER aging for 6 months in primary I will rack onto 100g of styrian holdings for dryhop. (Keen to see what effect this has)
Not sure if I'll fruit. If I do it'll be sour cherries.
Do you think I should fruit?
crusader1612
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EDIT: Double Post
Last edited:
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ShareBrewing
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The hibiscus orange wit ended up being an incredible beer. I retract my previous statement as to partial souring. Souring only a portion of the volume of wortbis wort is worth the effort. Combined with the hibiscus, the tartness made a very refreshing brew perfect for summer. The hibiscus really added a nice blueberry dimension to the beer along with tart quality of its own.
Have only received rave reviews from friends and all of my SWBMO. It took about 3 weeks to reach peak flavor but after which point the tartness was very pleasant and noticeable. I totally encourage others to try souring a portion of the wort and add it back during fermentation. I would love to try this for a shandy or wheat beer of any kind. Yes it's not as tart as a full-volume kettle-soured beer, but is quite refreshing and yielded a unique product. If done again, I wouldn't actually do the full volume sour. Maybe I would only sour 1/2 of the volume, up from 2 out of 5 gal in my exbeeriment.
EDIT: Sorry this was riddled with typos.
Have only received rave reviews from friends and all of my SWBMO. It took about 3 weeks to reach peak flavor but after which point the tartness was very pleasant and noticeable. I totally encourage others to try souring a portion of the wort and add it back during fermentation. I would love to try this for a shandy or wheat beer of any kind. Yes it's not as tart as a full-volume kettle-soured beer, but is quite refreshing and yielded a unique product. If done again, I wouldn't actually do the full volume sour. Maybe I would only sour 1/2 of the volume, up from 2 out of 5 gal in my exbeeriment.
EDIT: Sorry this was riddled with typos.
crusader1612
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So this brew hasn't turned out exactly as I'd hoped.....
I brewed about 3 weeks ago. and did my kettle sour as normal in my grainfather. for some reason the pills I used didnt really sour, and it sat in the Gf for nearly a week, full of CO2 of course. I dont have a Ph meter ATM so couldn't measure it. I then racked into my carboy and pitched my houseculture 2-3 days after harvest, no starter, i used 200ml of pretty thick slurry.
then it became an issue again. after 1 week, it had gone from 1.060 to 1.048, and my culutrue in times past was normally pretty good., this time not so much. so as i had scheduled to brew a batch of brown ale for easy drinking (BrewDog Recipe) I moved into another area, with no sun, even though its a little cold. and I've just let it sit around since. I'll let it sit for roughly 3 months before checking gravity. If its not fully attenuated bythen, it'll get bottle dregs. If it is, I'll test the Ph Properly, and see how it is. Again if the ph and taste isn't where I want it, i may add dregs, or alternatively, it may just become a red brett saison with styrian goldings and cherries. alkthough the bitterness of the beer may suffer, soi im still on the fence on that one.
Good job Sharebrewing and thank you for this thread and regular updates. I have a starter going now from Probiotics. Trying to bring a full gallon of starter down to 3.2. Started with 0.5 gallon, down to 3.8 and now added more wort and sugar to bring it up to 1 gallon. I will be brewing 15 gallons of beer so I need a strong starter.
I will then divide in 3 carboys. In one I am planning to add Riesling grapes in secondary after a fermentation with Brett Trois. The second will be also fermented with brett and I will add seabuckthorn and rosemary and for the 3rd, Belle Saison yeast with Hibiscus and rose petals.
So far, the PH of the starter is not going down as much as I want. I also have a Culture for fresh vegetables and I am wondering if I should add this to my starter. What do you think? the ingredients list says : maltodextrin (as carrier), lb plantarum, ln mesenteroids and Pc acidilactici
thank you for your feedback.
I will then divide in 3 carboys. In one I am planning to add Riesling grapes in secondary after a fermentation with Brett Trois. The second will be also fermented with brett and I will add seabuckthorn and rosemary and for the 3rd, Belle Saison yeast with Hibiscus and rose petals.
So far, the PH of the starter is not going down as much as I want. I also have a Culture for fresh vegetables and I am wondering if I should add this to my starter. What do you think? the ingredients list says : maltodextrin (as carrier), lb plantarum, ln mesenteroids and Pc acidilactici
thank you for your feedback.
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ShareBrewing
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I really like your ideas terrenum, I can tell you think the same way I do. Your 3 ideas there are really something else. What is seabuckthorn, what flavor does it have and how would the rosemary compliment it?
As for your starter, I'm not sure if that's a good idea with the veggie culture. A quick google search brought up this link on L. Mesenteroides.
https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Leuconostoc_mesenteroides
The cliff-notes version is that the bacteria is in the same family and closely related to Lactobacillus. It's naturally found on many fruits and veggies, is a hetero-fermentative (a big issue for kettle-souring your beer), gram-positive, and anaerobic bacteria. It's often used as a "phase" microbe used in the dairy industry, kimchi, creation of byproducts for medicine or cosmetic products, etc. There were some alarming details about what compounds it metabolizes and its byproducts. But I'm not an expert, check out the article for better details.
I would just be cautious with using this particular microbe, at least in a kettle soured beer. It'd be interesting to see how that microbe would ferment in the long term in an exbeeriment.
My house Lacto culture seemed to have been contaminated by a foreign yeast, or somehow the Lacto became hetero-fermentative? So I've had to get rid of it and now I'm kinda in the same situation as you. I need a new Lacto starter so I was actually thinking of using Greek yogurt (Chobani Simply 100). This yogurt is as close to just straight up fermented yogurt as I can find. No sugars, fats, preservatives, coloring, GMO(s), blah blah. There's several different strains of Lacto (acidophilus, bulgaricus, plantarum, etc.) in there along with Streptococcus Thermophilus. Should provide plenty of souring bugs to do the job, and I've had great sours made from yogurt starters.
The brewery I work for just released a pineapple Berliner wiesse that used such a technique. Frankly, the tartness of that beer is possibly one of the cleanest I've ever tasted. So it can be done.
As for your starter, I'm not sure if that's a good idea with the veggie culture. A quick google search brought up this link on L. Mesenteroides.
https://microbewiki.kenyon.edu/index.php/Leuconostoc_mesenteroides
The cliff-notes version is that the bacteria is in the same family and closely related to Lactobacillus. It's naturally found on many fruits and veggies, is a hetero-fermentative (a big issue for kettle-souring your beer), gram-positive, and anaerobic bacteria. It's often used as a "phase" microbe used in the dairy industry, kimchi, creation of byproducts for medicine or cosmetic products, etc. There were some alarming details about what compounds it metabolizes and its byproducts. But I'm not an expert, check out the article for better details.
I would just be cautious with using this particular microbe, at least in a kettle soured beer. It'd be interesting to see how that microbe would ferment in the long term in an exbeeriment.
My house Lacto culture seemed to have been contaminated by a foreign yeast, or somehow the Lacto became hetero-fermentative? So I've had to get rid of it and now I'm kinda in the same situation as you. I need a new Lacto starter so I was actually thinking of using Greek yogurt (Chobani Simply 100). This yogurt is as close to just straight up fermented yogurt as I can find. No sugars, fats, preservatives, coloring, GMO(s), blah blah. There's several different strains of Lacto (acidophilus, bulgaricus, plantarum, etc.) in there along with Streptococcus Thermophilus. Should provide plenty of souring bugs to do the job, and I've had great sours made from yogurt starters.
The brewery I work for just released a pineapple Berliner wiesse that used such a technique. Frankly, the tartness of that beer is possibly one of the cleanest I've ever tasted. So it can be done.
Thanks for your input.
Seabuckthorn in French is called Argousier. It is a small orange fruit in the same family as olive even though the taste is completely different. The closest I can think of is Passion fruit and it is tart, not a sweet fruit. I am thinking more about fresh spruce tips since it is spring instead of Rosemary that could be too piney. the fresh tips will bring in more subtle flavours.
I finally used the probiotic pills not the veggie culture. Good decision I think. I got my 5 gallon starter down to 3.2 and brewed yesterday. Pitched the starter along with a bit of lactic acid to lower the PH to 4.6. the wort is gently souring at the moment.
Not sure I will go all the way down to 3.2 since the sea buckthorn will add sourness and hibiscus does as well.... may be I'll stop around 3.4
I'll keep you posted on the progress.
I noticed on brew day that the store gave me the wrong grain. I asked for Superior Pilsner from Canada Malting and they gave me the Superior Pale Malt instead.... a bit more color and flavour I guess... I'll see how it turns out.
cheers
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ShareBrewing
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Really had a hankering to add pineapple to a sour which led me to this. Adding 5 lbs of fresh pineapple to the honey cherry sour.
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The night before I shaved, cored and chopped up 3 pineapples and put them in the gal freezer bag. I removed all the air and massaged the fruit to release a lot juice and break up some of the chunks. Put it in the freezer overnight and thawed the next day. Half of the fruit I put in my ninja and puréed the **** out of it, then racked the beer onto all of the fruit and juice in the secondary fermenter.
From an adjusted OG of 1.054, the FG dropped to 1.011. The WLP648 Brett Brux Vrai did a very nice job and left a very clean profile and a touch of funk. It left plenty of malt character that leaves a long pleasant linger. By taste, I would say the pH has to be around 3.35-3.40. Absolutely delicious. Hmm, the secret may be the combo of a high mash temp (~156F) and 100% Brett fermentation.
Only hit me after I did this. In concept, did I just make a pineapple bunt cake sour?
View attachment 402637
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View attachment 402641
The night before I shaved, cored and chopped up 3 pineapples and put them in the gal freezer bag. I removed all the air and massaged the fruit to release a lot juice and break up some of the chunks. Put it in the freezer overnight and thawed the next day. Half of the fruit I put in my ninja and puréed the **** out of it, then racked the beer onto all of the fruit and juice in the secondary fermenter.
From an adjusted OG of 1.054, the FG dropped to 1.011. The WLP648 Brett Brux Vrai did a very nice job and left a very clean profile and a touch of funk. It left plenty of malt character that leaves a long pleasant linger. By taste, I would say the pH has to be around 3.35-3.40. Absolutely delicious. Hmm, the secret may be the combo of a high mash temp (~156F) and 100% Brett fermentation.
Only hit me after I did this. In concept, did I just make a pineapple bunt cake sour?
So went down to the basement this morning and was surprised to see some action going on innthe carboys. I always thought lactobacillus were not coverting sugar into alcohol but looks like some fermentation is going on.
Since I had filled the carboy to avoid oxydation, i added some blow off tube this morning. The PH went down from 4.6 to 3.9 in 36 hours and it smells clean. No sign of infection so if my wort is fermenting due to another bug beside the lacto it must bena good one !
I also noticed a clear line in the wort. Looks like the ph difference or the lacto slowlynt.aking over the wort...
Since I had filled the carboy to avoid oxydation, i added some blow off tube this morning. The PH went down from 4.6 to 3.9 in 36 hours and it smells clean. No sign of infection so if my wort is fermenting due to another bug beside the lacto it must bena good one !
I also noticed a clear line in the wort. Looks like the ph difference or the lacto slowlynt.aking over the wort...
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ShareBrewing
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Sorry for the long posts, but this will be more about the results so far and what methods specifically yielded what flavors.
FIRST TASTE: (1 month)
Light fruitiness, but not distinct. VERY clean fermentation profile w/ only a hint of barnyard funk from Brett. Medium body. The flavor clarity and linger of the malt body is what surprised me. It was a great malt backbone. You could get the real bready flavor, the spicy rye, lingering for a good 25 sec on the palette, but not being unpleasant or overly sweet.
---Cause and Effects---
MASH
Long, high temp mash (156F-158F) resulted in a surplus of long chain dextrins, enough for the Brett to munch through without depleting them.
FERMENTATION
100% Brett primary @ 63-65 for about 5 weeks. The cool temp really seemed to have kept the yeast esters in check while providing a clean profile, honestly similar to that of US-05. Also, the growth of the yeast would probably have been helped by the reduced pH.
Remember that when Brett is given access to the full array of nutrients in the wort, with no microbial competition, it gets lazy! Research seems to show that Brett behaves much like an ale yeast when given these conditions. It will selectively ferment the simpler sugars (glucose, fructose, maltose, etc), and thus choose to not ferment the much more complex dextrins. This behavior of simple sugar consumption, in theory, was conditioned into the yeast by adding the pound of honey and 1/2 gal of cherry juice only 3-4 days into primary fermentation. This kept them from eating up the nice spice of the rye, the rich toasted bread flavors. The malty flavors I got in this were unlike anything I'd ever gotten with your standard medium body ale. Very pleased with this one.
This may be something to experiment with. High mash temp, kettle sour, then pitch only Brett, add simple sugars early in primary (not in the boil).
FIRST TASTE: (1 month)
Light fruitiness, but not distinct. VERY clean fermentation profile w/ only a hint of barnyard funk from Brett. Medium body. The flavor clarity and linger of the malt body is what surprised me. It was a great malt backbone. You could get the real bready flavor, the spicy rye, lingering for a good 25 sec on the palette, but not being unpleasant or overly sweet.
---Cause and Effects---
MASH
Long, high temp mash (156F-158F) resulted in a surplus of long chain dextrins, enough for the Brett to munch through without depleting them.
FERMENTATION
100% Brett primary @ 63-65 for about 5 weeks. The cool temp really seemed to have kept the yeast esters in check while providing a clean profile, honestly similar to that of US-05. Also, the growth of the yeast would probably have been helped by the reduced pH.
Remember that when Brett is given access to the full array of nutrients in the wort, with no microbial competition, it gets lazy! Research seems to show that Brett behaves much like an ale yeast when given these conditions. It will selectively ferment the simpler sugars (glucose, fructose, maltose, etc), and thus choose to not ferment the much more complex dextrins. This behavior of simple sugar consumption, in theory, was conditioned into the yeast by adding the pound of honey and 1/2 gal of cherry juice only 3-4 days into primary fermentation. This kept them from eating up the nice spice of the rye, the rich toasted bread flavors. The malty flavors I got in this were unlike anything I'd ever gotten with your standard medium body ale. Very pleased with this one.
This may be something to experiment with. High mash temp, kettle sour, then pitch only Brett, add simple sugars early in primary (not in the boil).
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
I'm a fan of a few different mash profiles for 100% Brett beers.
If I'm going quick and easy I'll mash in at 148 for 30 min then ramp to 158 for 30 min and 10 min at 168.
I have done a few turbid mashed lately and they leave a nice residual malt profile. I've used both unmalted wheat and rye malt. Either way you end up with a bit more malt flavor.
I think it's an easy way to avoid a thin beer when using 100% Brett yeast.
Cheers
If I'm going quick and easy I'll mash in at 148 for 30 min then ramp to 158 for 30 min and 10 min at 168.
I have done a few turbid mashed lately and they leave a nice residual malt profile. I've used both unmalted wheat and rye malt. Either way you end up with a bit more malt flavor.
I think it's an easy way to avoid a thin beer when using 100% Brett yeast.
Cheers
Just a quick update on the beer... we are boiling at this time. PH was down to 3.4 which I thought would be enough since we are adding tart ingredients.
Our wort smells really really fruity, like canned peaches and apricot and acid off course. It this normal? have you experienced this? I hope the bretts and yeasts will clean this up in primary.
Also, the OG went down to 1.041 from 1.048. should I assume there is already a bit of alcohol in the beer or if it will evaporate during the boil?
thanks for your input
Our wort smells really really fruity, like canned peaches and apricot and acid off course. It this normal? have you experienced this? I hope the bretts and yeasts will clean this up in primary.
Also, the OG went down to 1.041 from 1.048. should I assume there is already a bit of alcohol in the beer or if it will evaporate during the boil?
thanks for your input
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ShareBrewing
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I had the same issue with the honey cherry sour, the Lacto culture somehow ate through about 12 pts of gravity before I boiled off (OG 1.044 -> 1.032). That's why I added the 1/2 gal of cherry juice and the pound of honey. You can always add a simple/complex sugar to boost the gravity to where it once was.
Just know that the Lacto could have been heterofermentative. The beer I used the culture in next, an imperial margarita gose, the same Lacto culture ate through HALF of the beer (1.058 -> 1.027). In that case, I just added 2+ lbs of DME dissolved in a small amount of boiling water right to the still cooling wort before pitching yeast after the post-kettle sour boil. To me, at this point I realized that the lacto had somehow started consuming more and more sugar (not completely sure why), and dumped the culture.
Advice from others here on HBT suggested that the Lacto culture was indeed producing alcohol from the sugar it'd consumed. When I tasted the gose (it could've been either 4.5% or about 8%), the HBT guys seemed to be right, as the beer was certainly clean, but packed the wallop of a 8% beer.
Just know that the Lacto could have been heterofermentative. The beer I used the culture in next, an imperial margarita gose, the same Lacto culture ate through HALF of the beer (1.058 -> 1.027). In that case, I just added 2+ lbs of DME dissolved in a small amount of boiling water right to the still cooling wort before pitching yeast after the post-kettle sour boil. To me, at this point I realized that the lacto had somehow started consuming more and more sugar (not completely sure why), and dumped the culture.
Advice from others here on HBT suggested that the Lacto culture was indeed producing alcohol from the sugar it'd consumed. When I tasted the gose (it could've been either 4.5% or about 8%), the HBT guys seemed to be right, as the beer was certainly clean, but packed the wallop of a 8% beer.
Thanks ShareBrewing; very nice exchanging with you on this project. Since the Brett were very slow to start (no action after 72 hours) I decided to add 3711 French Saison. It is now fermenting happily. I'll do my all brett only experiment another time as I don'T have time to wait a full-month for primary... I know patience is required when you brew this type of beer but my main objective here is to test base recipe for a larger scale project, knowing that I could had complexity by letting the wild critters do their work properly! I added honey to the boil and gained back what I had lost to the Lacto.
Tasted a sample after 4 days in primary and the beer is definitely sour with a nice flavour profile. Looks fine so far. I kept the IBU low at 16 (added after souring of course) but added a bit of hops at 20 min for flavour. I selected floral hops such as Crystal, Cluster and Santiam.
Tasted a sample after 4 days in primary and the beer is definitely sour with a nice flavour profile. Looks fine so far. I kept the IBU low at 16 (added after souring of course) but added a bit of hops at 20 min for flavour. I selected floral hops such as Crystal, Cluster and Santiam.
OP
OP
ShareBrewing
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Kinda realizing it's crunch time to start bottling a lot of the sours in my pipeline... forgive me, I'm trying to do a lot this from memory. My phone went haywire not too long ago and I wasn't able to recover the dozens of recipes I had in BeerSmith from the iCloud... luckily had some of this written down.
1) Belgian golden strong (10.5 months)
- Abbey yeast, B. Brux, L. Brevis
- added rose hips, red wine, Fr. oak
2) "Dubbel-like" sour (9 months)
- House culture (2nd gen)
- added black plums, honey, Fr. oak.
3) Pale honey sour (4 months)
- House culture (3rd gen)
- added 25-30% honey, feedings at 1 week, 2 weeks, and 1.5 months.
- added 1 Fr. oak spiral (soaked in tequila)
- WILL ADD lime zest and juice, lime-tequila infusion, and maybe black volcanic Hiwa Kai salt (to be specific).
*** my recent margarita gose (shout- out to Morrey!) really is influencing how I want to finish this brew. Lime was always in mind, but the salt?! Who knows?
4) "Colonel Flanders V.2" (4 months)
*** Rye Kentucky Common recipe ***
- soured w/ House culture (3rd gen)
- added molasses, dark sweet cherries, and Fr. oak.
NOTE: "Colonel Flanders" came from my first sour, a rye Kentucky common with all the ingredients above. Used White Labs Belgian Sour Mix 1 (often used for lambics, Flanders ales, and your more funky Belgians). Made an overly acetic beer but the cake was ripe with great critters. This is what became my house sour culture. The 2nd gen at 3 months tasted so clean and tart. My only taste comparison for the beer at the time was close to Tell-Tale Tart by Boulevard. Insanely good. Decided to keep it going.
5) Cherry Pineapple sour (1.5 months)
**** read thread for details ****
QUESTIONS:
Should I invest in a floor corker to bottle these (and likewise, corks + cages)? Some are less than 6 months so the Brett is sure to be still pretty active.
What kind of carbonation level should I shoot for?
If I bottled in the normal 12 oz glass vessels, would I get bottle bombs?
Thanks for any advice!
1) Belgian golden strong (10.5 months)
- Abbey yeast, B. Brux, L. Brevis
- added rose hips, red wine, Fr. oak
2) "Dubbel-like" sour (9 months)
- House culture (2nd gen)
- added black plums, honey, Fr. oak.
3) Pale honey sour (4 months)
- House culture (3rd gen)
- added 25-30% honey, feedings at 1 week, 2 weeks, and 1.5 months.
- added 1 Fr. oak spiral (soaked in tequila)
- WILL ADD lime zest and juice, lime-tequila infusion, and maybe black volcanic Hiwa Kai salt (to be specific).
*** my recent margarita gose (shout- out to Morrey!) really is influencing how I want to finish this brew. Lime was always in mind, but the salt?! Who knows?
4) "Colonel Flanders V.2" (4 months)
*** Rye Kentucky Common recipe ***
- soured w/ House culture (3rd gen)
- added molasses, dark sweet cherries, and Fr. oak.
NOTE: "Colonel Flanders" came from my first sour, a rye Kentucky common with all the ingredients above. Used White Labs Belgian Sour Mix 1 (often used for lambics, Flanders ales, and your more funky Belgians). Made an overly acetic beer but the cake was ripe with great critters. This is what became my house sour culture. The 2nd gen at 3 months tasted so clean and tart. My only taste comparison for the beer at the time was close to Tell-Tale Tart by Boulevard. Insanely good. Decided to keep it going.
5) Cherry Pineapple sour (1.5 months)
**** read thread for details ****
QUESTIONS:
Should I invest in a floor corker to bottle these (and likewise, corks + cages)? Some are less than 6 months so the Brett is sure to be still pretty active.
What kind of carbonation level should I shoot for?
If I bottled in the normal 12 oz glass vessels, would I get bottle bombs?
Thanks for any advice!
OP
OP
ShareBrewing
Well-Known Member
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2016
- Messages
- 274
- Reaction score
- 110
Update on bottling:
Bought a floor corker and bottled up #2 from the above. It really turned out to be more of a Flanders red/brown in character.
Quite vinous and dark fruity, with notes of cherry skin, light tannin, and light acetic character. Mild supporting malt. The house culture certainly did its work in only 9 months, and I think I caught it at the right point. Another month and I feel the acetic and 'vinegar-like' quality may have gotten over the threshold of enjoyable.
Bottled to 2.4 vol (my personal taste) in the 750mL (25.37oz) Belgian bottles (see pics). Would you also recommend using these for the speed-sours that use 100% Brett? If these were bottled at 6 months, the culture is sure to be active but would it be enough to create bottle bombs in the usual 12 oz glass + cap?
Should "6 month sours" always be bottled and corked? I've bottled 100% Brett beers and they tend to become over-carbonated within 6-9 months and become pretty dry. Thoughts?
Bought a floor corker and bottled up #2 from the above. It really turned out to be more of a Flanders red/brown in character.
Quite vinous and dark fruity, with notes of cherry skin, light tannin, and light acetic character. Mild supporting malt. The house culture certainly did its work in only 9 months, and I think I caught it at the right point. Another month and I feel the acetic and 'vinegar-like' quality may have gotten over the threshold of enjoyable.
Bottled to 2.4 vol (my personal taste) in the 750mL (25.37oz) Belgian bottles (see pics). Would you also recommend using these for the speed-sours that use 100% Brett? If these were bottled at 6 months, the culture is sure to be active but would it be enough to create bottle bombs in the usual 12 oz glass + cap?
Should "6 month sours" always be bottled and corked? I've bottled 100% Brett beers and they tend to become over-carbonated within 6-9 months and become pretty dry. Thoughts?
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