About to give in...Need your help and support please

[Cubslover]

As a back story; I've brewed for 7-8 years now, I switched to all grain 2 years ago.

I've struggled with what I believe to be Acetobacter in my last 6, yes SIX batches.

5 of them were whole grain batches. I felt great about them, hit my temps, hit my SG, quick thorough fermentation, then when I get prepared to bottle, WHAM, Vinegar.

My last batch was about 3 months ago. A 40 IBU pale ale dryhopped with a healthy dose of my fresh homegrown Cascade and Chinook hops. I bleach soaked everything before starsan. Primary is an Ale Pale (no visible scratches, although it is a few years old). Fermentation was good, no hint of vinegar when I racked to the secondary (better bottle) and hit it with the hops. Still no sign of vinegar when I bottled (also bleach soaked my bucket before rinsing then starsan).

Popped my first bottle 4 weeks after bottling (bottles stayed at 55 deg in my fermentation chamber), VINEGAR! I cranked down the temp to see if I could slow it down, but to no avail.

It's spent about 2 months in the bottle and it's the same, which points me to the Acetobacter hypothesis.

The only thing I can think of is that I've overlooked is that I haven't replaced or even removed the valve from my bottling bucket. I really hope that has been my problem.

In any event, I'm replacing my buckets, tubing, and siphon and I want to try this one last time. If I end up with ANYTHING other than vinegar, I will keep at it. I really do NOT want to quit, but I simply cannot continue throwing money down the drain, literally.

Please provide a few words of encouragement and even direct me at a good simple recipe or suggest a style that I can brew to get me back in the saddle. I'm thinking of a simple Partial Mash Brown Ale or Oatmeal Stout.

 

[mkyl428]

Man sorry to hear that... I would deffinatly check that spiggot I take my bottling bucket apart & re-assemble it every time I bottle, so I know it is clean. you can even take the spigot apart.

If that doesn't work I would say you probably need to replace all your plastic.

You could look on craigslist for a brewing starter kit or something there are on ther all the time here for pretty cheap.

 

[RM-MN]

Are you absolutely sure it is vinegar? Totally sure? Could it be acetaldehyde instead? You're trying to carbonate at a very low temperature and the yeast may be changing the alcohol back to acetaldehyde which should taste like green apples but you may perceive it as vinegar. Set some bottles out at room temperature for a month or more and then put them in the refrigerator for at least 24 hours and try one. Please post your results to this tread so that I can find it. If you still have vinegar flavor we need to look to another source.

 

[Howhownow]

I fought a similar infection that I eventually figured out was coming from a bucket. I also had ongoing issues with bottle infections. What process do you use to sanitize your bottles?

 

[LLBeanJ]

I don't use my bottling bucket much, but when I do, I remove the spigot from the bucket and then separate the valve piece from the body (they just pull apart), give them a good rinse under hot water and put them back in the bottling bucket to dry disassembled. I don't reassemble anything until I am ready to use the bucket again. Those spigots are definite bacteria traps and there's a really good chance that's the source of your problem if you've never cleaned them before.

 

[m00ps]

Bottling bucket spigots are notorious for harboring infections. I've only brewed like 70 batches and I'm already on my 3rd out of paranoia / using one for wild brews

 

[unionrdr]

I agree. I soak all my buckets/fermenters in PBW, scrub lightly to remove all loos stuff Then rinse well. I even wipe them out/off with a dry towel. Then before using, I remove the spigot & parts to soak in PBW again & clean them out with a set of aquarium lift tube brushes. Rinse & soak in Starsan to re-assemble wet. The mounting hole gets cleaned & sanitized as well before re-assembling wet with Starsan.

 

[bobeer]

I had a similar issue and it was my auto siphon. Now I replace it every few months or about every 10 or so beers that go through it.

I know you're tired of wasting money but maybe you should invest in a kegging system. No more racking the beer into another container and you don't have to wait 3+ weeks for it to carbonate and condition. Just a thought! Hang in there man, you'll figure it out. Maybe do half batches until you nail the culprit?

 

[Cubslover]

Are you absolutely sure it is vinegar? Totally sure? Could it be acetaldehyde instead? You're trying to carbonate at a very low temperature and the yeast may be changing the alcohol back to acetaldehyde which should taste like green apples but you may perceive it as vinegar. Set some bottles out at room temperature for a month or more and then put them in the refrigerator for at least 24 hours and try one. Please post your results to this tread so that I can find it. If you still have vinegar flavor we need to look to another source.

I'm almost positive. It definitely is not green apples, I will do this though.

I sanitize my bottles with a sulfiter using star san then a drying tree. I triple rinse every bottle after pouring a beer and bleach scrub them all every 3-4 batches. Since every bottle has the same result, I have ruled the bottles out for the most part.

My next plan of attack, before picking up materials for a full batch; I forgot I have 2 - 1 gallon glass carboys and bought a surplus of hops a few months ago (in freezer). I also have enough ingredients for a couple gallon batch of a honey wheat beer. I will brew up a partial with what I have, give my equipment another good blast with bleach and a no-scratch pad, disinfect the spigot and bottling bucket, and try once again.

I wouldn't be out anything other than water/time/propane since I have some extra ingredients I wasn't planning to use.

Thanks all, I'm feeling better about it.

 

[balrog]

then separate the valve piece from the body (they just pull apart)

using what? Bench vise? Teeth? Angry vengeful badgers? I don't see how to do this and given all my issues with bottled foam after 6 weeks, I replaced the spigot (results are still out as to effectiveness of that). But I would *LOVE* to be able to disassemble and StarSan. This is what I have:

 

[mkyl428]

using what? Bench vise? Teeth? Angry vengeful badgers? I don't see how to do this and given all my issues with bottled foam after 6 weeks, I replaced the spigot (results are still out as to effectiveness of that). But I would *LOVE* to be able to disassemble and StarSan. This is what I have:

No like these

These ones come apart

 

[unionrdr]

Those are the Italian ones I use all the time. Easy to clean & sanitize. I noticed at JW Dover, they have those in various mounting lug diameters as well.

 

[LLBeanJ]

No like these

These ones come apart

Bingo! That's exactly the one I have. The red piece pulls right out.

 

[balrog]

No like these

These ones come apart

Thanks. And sorry for the selfish thread-jack; it's very helpful to know what to switch to in order to make sanitizing easier and more thorough.

 

[unionrdr]

I also like how these have the recess on the spout that fits 3/8" ID tubing snugly as well for bottling wand tubes, racking tubes, etc. Handy.

 

[cannman]

Remove the plastic spigot from you bottling bucket, boil it for 10 min, scrub the inside, reboil, then soak in your fav sanitizer. In fact just replace your whole bottling bucket. I recently decided to use an old aluminum pot for bottling as I fear my plastic ones. You can replace the spigots for about $7 including shipping on amazon, a cheap fix, but you can't replace the scratches in your bucket.

Another thing is change your lines! Change the plastic hose that connects the spigot to the wand, and the plastic you use in your transfer from primary/secondary to bottle bucket. I've also stopped using injectors... it's just more plastic that can harbor microbs... so now I just soak my bottles in StarSan for a few minutes in a rubbermaid bucket and then hang on my bottle tree.

I also wear a mask around any post-boil wort... your breath can carry evils into your vulnerable wort...

Do these things and you will brew on.

 

[balrog]

Replacing vinyl siphon and racking tube with boil able silicone tubing



Sent using Home Brew I-app

 

[unionrdr]

Yeah, I found it wise to change my tubing every couple years at least. But I scrub mine inside & out. Sanitize inside & out as well. Nothing escapes cleaning, rinsing & sanitizing inside & out.

 

[619Brewer]

I'm almost positive. It definitely is not green apples, I will do this though.

I sanitize my bottles with a sulfiter using star san then a drying tree. I triple rinse every bottle after pouring a beer and bleach scrub them all every 3-4 batches. Since every bottle has the same result, I have ruled the bottles out for the most part.

My next plan of attack, before picking up materials for a full batch; I forgot I have 2 - 1 gallon glass carboys and bought a surplus of hops a few months ago (in freezer). I also have enough ingredients for a couple gallon batch of a honey wheat beer. I will brew up a partial with what I have, give my equipment another good blast with bleach and a no-scratch pad, disinfect the spigot and bottling bucket, and try once again.

I wouldn't be out anything other than water/time/propane since I have some extra ingredients I wasn't planning to use.

Thanks all, I'm feeling better about it.

When have you cleaned your drying tree? Just a thought, you could unwittingly infecting your bottles with the tree.

In any case, at some point you have to start the process of elimination. Buy a couple brand new bottles see if you still get it, use the glass carboy, check, so on. Eventually you'll get a clean bottle/batch of beer and whatever the last thing you changed was the culprit. Best of luck man.

 

[jbaysurfer]

If I had to wager it's certainly that bottling spigot, but the post about the bottle tree was a good one too. I'd bleach bomb that thing every so often by turning it upside down in a bucket.

Also, buckets and vinyl tubing are dirt cheap. I'd just replace the fermenter and bottling bucket. Get the new bucket with the spigot you can pull apart and incorporate that into your routine. I'd also replace all the tubing.

This is gonna be an easy fix. You're gonna make a great batch of beer if you do these things.

 

[SavoryChef]

I would get rid of the bleach and only use PBW/Oxyclean and then Starsan. Bleach can cause off flavors.

 

[cannman]

When have you cleaned your drying tree? Just a thought, you could unwittingly infecting your bottles with the tree.

In any case, at some point you have to start the process of elimination. Buy a couple brand new bottles see if you still get it, use the glass carboy, check, so on. Eventually you'll get a clean bottle/batch of beer and whatever the last thing you changed was the culprit. Best of luck man.

Good point. Easy to take off each section and boil for 10 minutes

A+

 

[jbaysurfer]

I would get rid of the bleach and only use PBW/Oxyclean and then Starsan. Bleach can cause off flavors.

In general I agree with this. But the bottle tree can be safely bleach bombed as it has very very little actual contact with your bottles, and they are inverted and drip drying on it. You can safely use bleach in your home brewery without off flavors, it's about using the right mix of bleach, and here's a hint, UV breaks bleach down..so after bleach bombing, rinse THOROUGHLY and then allow to dry in full sun for a day or two. You'll have no residue or odor remaining, and you can still make award winning/delicious beer.

I only resort to bleach in situations where I don't feel the normal products are going to be enough, and it's rare..but I've done it safely.

 

[stpug]

Acetobacter is an aerobic bacteria that performs it's process on the surface of a solution and requires oxygen to convert the ethanol to acetic acid (i.e. vinegar). When I used to make vinegar you could clearly see the surface change over time, and it takes several weeks for the process to get going. It starts with a "oil slick" look to it; like someone spilled 2-cycle fuel in your beer/wine/etc. The "slick" then becomes a full s.c.o.b.y. with a thickness to it and fleshiness; you can pick it up and play with it . I highly doubt you are running into an acetobacter problem since your beer is tasting fine at bottling time and then you're locking it in an oxygen-free environment with live yeast who will absorb any newly introduced oxygen.

This is not to say that you aren't tasting vinegar - you probably are - it's just that you would want to look at other possible culprits that can lead to acetic acid production. Some other anaerobic bacteria/yeast produce acetic acid byproducts, and I feel as though I remember reading about a bad process that can lead to this as well. If I come up with anything else that's useful I'll certainly post it. Of course, swapping out equipment is a tried-and-true step to take in order to whittle out a problem in your brewery.

 

[Cubslover]

Acetobacter is an aerobic bacteria that performs it's process on the surface of a solution and requires oxygen to convert the ethanol to acetic acid (i.e. vinegar). When I used to make vinegar you could clearly see the surface change over time, and it takes several weeks for the process to get going. It starts with a "oil slick" look to it; like someone spilled 2-cycle fuel in your beer/wine/etc. The "slick" then becomes a full s.c.o.b.y. with a thickness to it and fleshiness; you can pick it up and play with it . I highly doubt you are running into an acetobacter problem since your beer is tasting fine at bottling time and then you're locking it in an oxygen-free environment with live yeast who will absorb any newly introduced oxygen.

This is not to say that you aren't tasting vinegar - you probably are - it's just that you would want to look at other possible culprits that can lead to acetic acid production. Some other anaerobic bacteria/yeast produce acetic acid byproducts, and I feel as though I remember reading about a bad process that can lead to this as well. If I come up with anything else that's useful I'll certainly post it. Of course, swapping out equipment is a tried-and-true step to take in order to whittle out a problem in your brewery.

Thanks. I seem to recall a filmy look to one of my batches a while back. It was a brown ale that fermented for 4+ weeks, it was very strong.

I originally thought it was something I was doing wrong, but it seems it's pretty difficult to make a beer that isn't drinkable. Seems I've got that part down!

When I first started, I would sanitize everything with bleach, then rinse with tap water. I made some great batches at the time.

Who knows. We will see how this goes....

 

[619Brewer]

Personally, I would ditch the bleach. Between oxyclean and starsan I have all I need to keep the bad stuff away. When I first started I was so paranoid about infections that I got myself into the habit of constantly reapplying starsan to everything before, during and after the brew. If anything touches anything it at least gets a dip in the starsan bucket. Now it's second nature and it would take a miracle to infect my beer.

Once I'm done with brew day I soak everything in oxyclean and water, scrub and triple rinse thoroughly. Then i wash it with starsan and store it. Once I'm ready to use it again, I do a thorough starsan wash again and then I'm set.

I may not have done a ton of batches, but I've never had an infection or anything close to it.

 

[balrog]

Yeah, I found it wise to change my tubing every couple years at least. But I scrub mine inside & out. Sanitize inside & out as well. Nothing escapes cleaning, rinsing & sanitizing inside & out.

How do I reconcile "Don't use anything to create scratches in your plastic" with "Scrub inside and out " of vinyl tubing? I guess I would also like to know how to scrub inside of tubing--I don't have that toolset.

Yet.

 

[thegreatmaibockaddict]

Shameless plug to my site

http://www.thegreatmaibockaddict.com/troubleshooting.shtml

#15 is the issue being discussed...and I have found that the cause has always been a bottling bucket that has been used 20 or so times (nothing solid about that number, but around there).

When a bucket is used for a while, it tends to get a scratch or two, and no sanitizer known can clean it out completely, and eventually something nasty ends up growing there. I can remember years ago being able to actually smell the infection in the bucket one time. Usually my problem is not bacteria but wild yeast strains that produce a sharp unpleasant clove flavor.

Another thing: if you are dry hopping with home grown hops that were fertilized with manure, the hops can harbor nasty bacteria that likes to grow on hops! Trust me, as this happened to me using a buddy's home grown hops, and yes, a vinegar like infection resulted.

I would ditch the old bucket for a new one, and as a suggestion, use a racking cane instead of a valve, and siphon the beer into bottles. Been doing this for nearly 20 years and literally 250 batches and it works just fine.

 

[Simps]

1. Stop using bleach and get PBW, Iodophor and one-step. Rotate your cleaning solutions and double up on techniques during bottling time. The bottling process that works for me is PBW>water rinse>heated dry washing machine cycle>submerse in starsan for a few minutes> dump> quick dunk in starsan> fill> cap with caps soaked in starsan for at least 15 min. I also fill my bottles with a beer gun from a keg which brings me to the next point...

2. Guaranteed short term fix to get you back in the spirit - get a keg setup. This will be a huge step forward, relieve a ton of stress, reduce your work and you will get better beer. You can get corny's for around $40, besides this you just need the tank, regulator w/ tubing and a fridge. Once it's in the fridge, even if you can't solve the problem right away, the beer is stable for quite a while.

Good luck, you can beat this thing.

 

[number40fan]

using what? Bench vise? Teeth? Angry vengeful badgers? I don't see how to do this and given all my issues with bottled foam after 6 weeks, I replaced the spigot (results are still out as to effectiveness of that). But I would *LOVE* to be able to disassemble and StarSan. This is what I have:

These come apart too. Turn the valve half way from on to off and either pull on the valve handle or push from the spout end.

 

[balrog]

I can remember years ago being able to actually smell the infection in the bucket one time. Usually my problem is not bacteria but wild yeast strains that produce a sharp unpleasant clove flavor.

Oh SNAP! My last two batches taste like clove and shouldn't at all.

It's new bottling bucket time.

 

[Cubslover]

Thanks all, definitely making me feel better.

I am going to brew 5 gal this weekend and split it into 2 - 1 gallon glass carboys and put 3 gallons in my standard fermenter. From there, I will bottle via a racking cane for the two glass carboys and half of the bucket, and use my extra cleaned bottling bucket for the last 1.5 gallons, marking all bottles so I can see if I can pinpoint the offender. HOpefully I can do that AND get some good beer out of the process.

 

[helibrewer]

You don't happen to crush your grain or leave your grain stored near those fermenters do you?

 

[tturner77]

Good luck. Having recurring issues really sucks, especially when you think you know the issue are making the right adjustments to fix it. Just keep at it, you always learn from each new batch, and eventually this will get worked out.

As another note, I move alot, and when Im traveling for a few months at a time I brew in 1 gal growlers. I see your planning on doing that too. Its a great way to take everything out of the equation, start fresh, and make a few cheaper batches as well!

 

[Cubslover]

You don't happen to crush your grain or leave your grain stored near those fermenters do you?

No I don't. I buy crushed grain and it goes in the freezer if I don't brew right away.

 

[gingerdawg]

Another vote for spigot issues. See here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/spigot-infection-121734/

 

[dnslater]

Wow. This thread has me freaking out about my bottling bucket. Used the same one for the past 3 years and 40+ batches without issues. Have never disassembled the valve. Now I want to run home and take it apart !!!

 

[chuckcomm]

Wow. This thread has me freaking out about my bottling bucket. Used the same one for the past 3 years and 40+ batches without issues. Have never disassembled the valve. Now I want to run home and take it apart !!!

Same here...i clean and sanitize the bucket but have never removed the valve

All I can think of now is to remove and clean it ASAP lol

 

[jfr1111]

I have a bottling bucket without a valve, I just rack to the bucket using the autosiphon, transfer the autosiphon to the bucket and attach my bottling wand to the length of tubing. I get the convenience of bottling spigots, but they seem to be a pain to keep clean and sanitary at all times. That last pitcure is disgusting.

 

[unionrdr]

I remove my spigots (like the ones shown) & soak in PBW for a while. I went to Petsmart & bought a set of 3 aquarium filter "lift tube" cleaning brushes to scrub the spigots inside with. Rinse & soak all the cleaned parts in Starsan & reassemble wet right before use.