About to do my first PM; more is better?

[WheeledGoat]

Hello all! I'm excited about doing my first PM this weekend - I've been reading my eyes out, pouring through the forum posts here and I'm still left with a few questions:

1. Isn't more water better for the PM? Better efficiency? I keep seeing this "1.5#grain:1pt water" ratio... is this considered minimal, or optimal? Why wouldn't I PM with, say, 3 gallons (going to have 2.5# grain) and sparge with a few more gallons to get me up to 5.5-6gal for my boil? (And then dissolve the DME and go from there?)


2. Also, I wonder why I wouldn't just do the PM right in my kettle - kinda like an extended steeping. It's not insulated like a cooler is, but I was thinking about keeping the propane burner on low to maintain 150-155F. If I was sure to stir enough to prevent scorching, is there another reason why this is a bad idea? Maybe it would just be too hard to maintain that specific temp range to produce the short-chain sugars?

3. What IS the difference between steeping and PM? I understand steeping is for a shorter time, and you're not maintaining that 150F temp so closely... does that mean you're just extracting some flavors with steeping, whereas the goal of PM is to extract more sugars?

Thanks very much for your indulgence of my noobness!! Brew On!

 

[Mirage]

For your first question, if you can do all the water, then you should just do all grain. People PM if they don't have the equipment to handle everything. The second question, if you take a look at Death's PM tutorial, he does do everything in pots on a stove, but that is with less water, so not quite sure. I will leave the last question to someone who knows more. If I am way off here, let me know as well.

 

[BarleyWater]

1. Too much water leads to extraction of tannins which will cause an astringency in the beer. the water to grain ratio should be 1:1 - 1.5:1, that is 1-1.5 qts per pound of grain. Then if you sparge with too much water, it can lead to the same problem. +1 on going all grain if you already have the room, it may actaully take some of the work out of the PM.

2. As long as you can get everything out of the kettle before starting your boil, then no problem. But you want to make sure you don't have any grain husk or large grain particles in the boil.

3. Yes.

 

[jmulligan]

You can definitely do PM right in your pot on the stove. That's how I started out. Put all of your grain in 1 or 2 grain bags, get your mash water to temp (~164-167F), add the grain, and once it settles down to whatever mash temp you want (150-155F), monitor the burner. I just put the lid on and kept checking over the course of the hour, turning the burning on or off as needed. When you're done mashing, put your grain (in bags) into a collander, and sparge with 170F water.

 

[ifishsum]

Yes, DeathBrewer's tutorial will help you a lot.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-partial-mash-brewing-pics-75231/

The main difference between steeping and mashing is that with mashing you're using grains with diastatic power, enzymes that convert the starches in the grains to sugars. Steeping grains mainly just gets some of the grain flavor from them (and some sugar) but mashing part of your recipe will take the place of some of your extract. For instance I brewed a PM the other day and added 2 lbs of base malt (like 2 row, Maris Otter) to the 2.5 lbs of other grains and did a mash very similar to how DeathBrewer does in his tutorial. Because of the extra 2 lbs of Maris Otter I used, I was able to reduce the amount of liquid extract by 1.5 lbs, plus I will get more real grain flavor in my beer.

You really need 2 kettles to do it right. I use a 2 gallon cooler to mash in, and then I sparge the grain bag in the kettle. Then I pour in the mash from the cooler, add 1/3 of the extract and start the boil. The rest of the extract goes in during the last 5-10 minutes. Late extract additions are not necessary, but will usually give a lighter color to your beer and better hops utilization if you can't boil the whole 5 gallons.

There is an optimal water to grain ratio for mashing, I think around 1.25 quarts per lb of grain. I try to stay as close to that as possible, keeping in mind that I can only boil 3 gallons total in my pot.

I hope this helps, I'm certainly not an expert but I've learned a lot from this board and my PMs have turned out great so far.

 

[Mirage]

(Not to hyjack) but I had a question on PM. Can you mix all the grain together in one grain bag (specialty and 2 row etc)? Or should they be added at different times? Thanks!

 

[shecky]

Go ahead and mix away.

 

[Ecnerwal]

Reading up on the process myself - other than tannin extraction, a second major reason to keep the mash water ratio down is so that the enzymes (which are converting starches to sugars) are not too dilute in the mash - which would slow the process down.

 

[Yooper]

Reading up on the process myself - other than tannin extraction, a second major reason to keep the mash water ratio down is so that the enzymes (which are converting starches to sugars) are not too dilute in the mash - which would slow the process down.

The tannin extract and enzymatic action depend alot on ph. That's the main reason to do a mash in the 1-2 quarts per pound of grain range. To keep the ph at an optimum level. More water would increase the ph too much.

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, grain has PH buffering capability but it's not unlimited. Too much water and you dilute the enzymes and the PH can run wild due to the decreased buffering capability.

In general, you'd want to limit your total water usage (both mash and sparge) to 3 qts per pound. So, let's say your PM grist is 4 pounds total. 1.5 qts/lb mash would require 6 quarts of water. After draining that off, sparge with up to 1.5qts per pound... another 6 quarts. That will be a total of about 10 quarts of runoff. If you have a pot that's large enough to take more than 10 quarts, don't use more water alone, up your grain bill AND water use and spend less money on LME.

 

[carl spakler]

You can definitely do PM right in your pot on the stove. That's how I started out. Put all of your grain in 1 or 2 grain bags, get your mash water to temp (~164-167F), add the grain, and once it settles down to whatever mash temp you want (150-155F), monitor the burner. I just put the lid on and kept checking over the course of the hour, turning the burning on or off as needed. When you're done mashing, put your grain (in bags) into a collander, and sparge with 170F water.

It is, IMO, far easier to hit your mash temp and throw the pot in a pre-heated, but off oven. I do 60-90 minutes mashes and lose barely any heat when I take the temp post mash.

 

[WheeledGoat]

Wow!! Thanks a ton for all the replies! I imagined there might be a good reason for not doing the PM in too much water... Turns out there's 3!
-too much tannin extraction
-enzymes are too dilute
-pH imbalance
(but what happens to the pH when we add water to the wort to get up to 5gal? Unless we immediately add the DME, the pH is shot until then, right?)

Yeah, I'm looking forward to maybe getting up to all-grain, but I've only done like 4 batches so far - I figure PM is my next step. I use a 36qt enamel pot for brewing, along with a propane burner in the garage (don't want to heat up the house - kitchen & family room is all one). I do have a larger stainless pot I use for steaming crabs - I think it's a 60qt... but I sure the hell ain't drilling any holes in that baby for draining wort. I'll see what I can get away with. I like the idea of just stepping up gradually, slowly replacing the DME in my recipes with grain.. Bobby has a good point with that.

Yeah, I had already found Death's thread in the stickies before posting - what a great write-up! It answered a lot of my questions and gave me a good feel for where I'm going.

I'm loving the 2-pot idea, sparging by dipping instead of pouring... and the oven idea is excellent!! You guys rock! I think that's the way I'm going to go!

One thought, though: With the 2-pot dip-sparge, am I still shooting for 170F? I think I remember reading that higher temps would start picking up the tannins from the husks.... so why aren't we sparging at 155F?

 

[BarleyWater]

but what happens to the pH when we add water to the wort to get up to 5gal?

It's not a problem at that point, because the grains aren't in the wort anymore. As someone said earlier (Yoop?), the pH is what affects the tannin extraction and enzyme balance, so nothing to worry about once the wort has been drained from the grains.

I think I remember reading that higher temps would start picking up the tannins from the husks.... so why aren't we sparging at 155F?

At 168-170, the enzymes are denatured, they stop working. Bringing the grains up to this temp keeps the beer from becoming to dry as a result of continued enzymatic activity. If you sparged at 155, the temp would drop by the time it reached the kettle, and could let the enzymes dry it out more than you wanted.

 

[Ecnerwal]

I do have a larger stainless pot I use for steaming crabs - I think it's a 60qt... but I sure the hell ain't drilling any holes in that baby for draining wort.

You don't need to. My 40qt is utterly intact and spigot-free. If you are brave and burly you can pick it up and pour, if the thought of wasting $$ ingredients and hours of time bothers you (it does me), you can siphon or pump. Chill by internal, external or both means while the wort is still in the pot, so you are moving cooled wort, not boiling-hot scalding wort. If you stick to 5 gallons or 5 gallons plus a bit batches, you can still pick the pot up to move it (or pour it). 10 gallon batches would be much more difficult to move, but there's no need to go to 10 gallon batches, even if you pot is big enough to do them. If you decide to go to 10 gallons, just set up so you can cool the wort (immersion cooler) and siphon or pump it out without moving the pot. Ferment 5 gallons at a time (2 for a 10 gallon batch) so you can pick the fermenter up and move it.

 

[WheeledGoat]

Hmmm... I'm gonna have to read about AG some more. All the equipment I see in people's pictures scares and confuses me; I still don't have a full understanding of the process as a whole. The PM is getting me there, though...

Maybe I shouldn't hijack my own thread, but has anyone noticed the lack of hot break boil over in enamel pots? I've only been doing partial boils (3gal) in my 36qt enamel pot, but I've yet to get a descent, visible, foamy hot break. Is it just that the extra room in the pot allows it come and go without the boil-over scare? Is there something about enamel pots?

I plan on doing a full-volume 5 gallon boil this weekend... maybe I'll get a boil-over then!!

 

[david_42]

Dip sparging at 170F will dissolve more of the sugars, but since the contact time is relatively short, you don't have to worry about tannins.

As one person here puts it: brewing is simple, it's up to the brewer to make it complicated. I've done AG using a grain bag. Not big beers, but up to about 1.060 there is very little difference between PM & AG. Above that and more equipment is needed, just because of the volume & weight of the grain. Sparging becomes more critical, because big beers mean large pre-boil volumes.

 

[goplayoutside]

...I've yet to get a descent, visible, foamy hot break. Is it just that the extra room in the pot allows it come and go without the boil-over scare? Is there something about enamel pots?boil-over then!!

I have noticed a big variation in hot break with the type of extract used. I think some extract producers have already dealt with the hot break during the extract production process, leaving you with extract having very little hot-break proteins (nice of them). Maybe I'm wrong -- hey AG folks, do you always get a bunch of hot break?

 

[WheeledGoat]

Yeah, your theory makes sense, actually! Even though I'm not witnessing the big foamy boil-over scare, I still have those big flakes of proteins dancing around in my wort...

I wonder why extract producers would spend the effort and money do that and not advertise it / taut it? Hmmm.

I have used all different varieties of DME & Syrup...