A surgical nurse takes up homebrewing...

[Poindexter]

That would be me. I have been a Registered Nurse for going on eleven years now. When I say a room is clean enough to perform an appendectomy I do mean it. My brew room is not that clean. I don't intend for this post to be about products. I am starting this thread to get people thinking about process.

I have seen a couple threads lately that are clearly sanitation problems.

Here is the Cliffs version of the Cliff's version:

1. sanitizers don't clean and cleaners do not sanitize.


Here is the Cliff's version: No sanitizer can sanitize under dirt that was supposed to be scrubbed off in the previous step.

So I got that off my chest.

Autoclave:
EDIT: This item is under review. Under discussion my dated information about bleach contact time has proven to be incorrect, so while I am researching that i am reviewing this too.

Lots of you have autoclaves at home. Just push the 'hot dry' button on your dishwasher. When the cycle is complete the interior of your dishwasher might be surgically sterile, unless you got some odd shaped something with standing water. If the stuff in the dishwasher is arranged so water can drain, and everything is dry, then everything is sterile when you reach for the door latch.

The moment you open the door to the dishwasher, it isn't sterile in there anymore. Are you hands surgically scrubbed? Are you wearing a mask? Is there a nearby UV light bulb to kill off airborne bacteria? Are you wearing a sterile gown?

The good news is whatever may have contaminated your last batch is dead now, assuming everything can drain and is dry.

The final solution:

EDIT: under dicussion this proves to be dated information. Most things will die instantly. The toxic protein that causes botulism will survive up to 15 minutes in conatct with 10% bleach.

I mentioned above I don't mean for this to be about products. If you are going along brewing good beer batch after batch you are obviously doing fine. For the folks struggling with off flavors and the like, there is one product you can buy without a prescription that will kill any and every micro-organism, instantly. On contact. Do not pass go. Do not collect $200. Bang, bang, you are dead.

It is a ten percent solution of household bleach in water. Not 12%, not 15%, not 8%, 10.00%. Actually, 9.9 to 10.1% is OK. Gram negative rods become protein scum on contact. Gram positive cocci become protein scum on contact. Mycobacterium sp., like tuberculosis and aviary influenza, dead on contact. HIV, Hepatitis A, B, C, E, and etc; non-viable protein scum, instantly, on contact. Prions like CJD or mad cow disease, non-viable instantly on contact. Whatever terrestrial microbug you care to name, instantly dead on contact. Bacterial spores from outer space - probably dead on contact.


So if you had an off flavor, and ran everything either through the DW on hot dry or sanitized the clean item in 10% bleach, and you still have an off flavor, one of three things happened:

1. you might have missed a spot.
2. there might be an infecting agent in your rinse water (you do have to rinse)
3. you might have re-introduced the contaminant through a process error

But it was one of those three things. Remember we don't need sterile equipment. All we need is equipment clean enough for the yeast we pitch to win the race for the food.

HTH somebody,
P

 

[Poindexter]

Soft plastic ale pails won't fit in most dishwashers, and liquids have a hard time reaching into micro-scratches, but a new ale pail is pretty cheap.

I hear they make nice grain buckets once retired from primary fermenter duty.

 

[PsicloneRN]

Greetings from a fellow nurse brewer

 

[Fingers]

Yeah, but are you sure?

 

[Poindexter]

Greetings from a fellow nurse brewer

Oh hey guy!

One other thing, just 'cause I am in the habit of keeping stuff like this clean, I only drink beer out of twist-off bottles now, every other bottled beer I drink out of a glass.

So the bottles I bottle into next time are:

1A. new, or
1B. rinsed immediately on pouring into a glass

2. stored clean and dry

3. Disinfected on bottling day. Disinfected at the very last instant before the beer goes in. I can fit 34bottles on the bottom rack of my dishwasher, so I only have to dunk about 20 in a bleach bucket. And guess which 20 hit the fridge first?

 

[Poindexter]

Yeah, but are you sure?

I am absolutely certain. Wanna apendectomy?

 

[Fingers]

I'm Canadian. I can get them for free. Thanks anyway.

 

[Alamo_Beer]

So the bottles I bottle into next time are:

1A. new, or
1B. rinsed immediately on pouring into a glass

2. stored clean and dry

3. Disinfected on bottling day. Disinfected at the very last instant before the beer goes in. I can fit 34bottles on the bottom rack of my dishwasher, so I only have to dunk about 20 in a bleach bucket. And guess which 20 hit the fridge first?

I get mine from a dumpster at a sh!tty dive bar called Vico's

Whatever works for you!

 

[Poindexter]

I get mine from a dumpster at a sh!tty dive bar called Vico's

Whatever works for you!

Been there, done that. I have, knock wood, not one contaminated bottle yet.

When I do this, I tend to fill the bottles about 1/3 with plain water and let them stand a little while (outdoors), and then fling whatever out onto the street where the sunlight can kill the smell.

Then hot soapy water (I use Blue Dawn, but whatever for dishes should be OK) and VIGOROUS with the bottle brush. I want thick foam spewing out the mouth of the bottle, and lots of it.

But I really want the bottle clean. This is the hardest thing in the world to teach to new people in the OR washing instruments. The foam is just a sign, it doesn't prove the bottle is clean. You have to look at the bottle to decide if the bottle is clean.

Imersion rinse, and then air dry.

At this point I _should_ have clean glass, and the bottles I found dumpster diving haven't come in the house yet.

Next, _inspect_ for cleanliness, outdoors, in bright sunlight. Next time you have an amber empty outdoors with you, see how easy it is to inspect for crud with the sun at your back. Dry. Don't bother trying to inspect wet bottles, you will get fooled. For me to be absolutely certain the glass has to be dry before I inspect for cleanliness.

Once you have dry clean glass you are ready to disinfect on bottling day.

What is your method greenhornet?

 

[Alamo_Beer]

Oxyclean for a week or whenever I get back to it...***

Rinse in a bucket of plain water...

Soak in Iodaphor on bottling day

So far so good!

***there is such a thing as TOO long in oxyclean...it'll leave a flim but it's nothing a little vinigar in your rinse water won't take care of

 

[BlindLemonLars]

I'm Canadian. I can get them for free.

Mine ruptured back in 1998, cost me a damn fortune too. My dad is Canadian, seems like I should have gotten half off the bill...

 

[ScubaSteve]

Another nurse here.....

I learned 3 things about homebrewing real quickly:
1) Bottling sucks.
2) Beer has been made for thousands of years without the benefit of an autoclave, PBW, Star-San, etc...stick with what works, reject what doesn't.
3) My education (microbiology, chemistry, physiology, etc.) makes me paranoid about my beer.

RDWHAHB!!!!!

 

[rohanski]

I have a problem that won't go away. I baked by carboy at 220 degrees for about 30 minutes. Will this kill everything?

 

[wild]

3) My education (microbiology, chemistry, physiology, etc.) makes me paranoid about my beer.

Ah...
The bliss of my ignorance!

 

[EdWort]

I'm Canadian. I can get them for free. Thanks anyway.

Only after it's too late.

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

Wha'ts with all the murses on the board?

 

[paulthenurse]

I've been an ER nurse in a ghetto in Boston for 11 years. I've got an immune system that can beat anything know to man, otherwise I'd have been dead years ago. when I need bottles I go down the street to Donovans and pick up all the old bottles with cigarette butts and spit in them. I just pour the back wash out and fill er up. F*** a bunch of sanitizer. It adds a nice "Old home" flavor. And it boosts my immune system. Up until the day it quits and I die an ugly death.

 

[Fingers]

Only after it's too late.

Oh, so you've been to Canada? Actually, there's almost always room in the emergency hallways for the limbless and the comotose.

I had to take my son to the emergency last week because of some nasty hives he had all over his body all weekend. They had a doctor there! Right in the hospital! Didn't look like a doctor with the pierced eyebrow and twitchy demeanor, but she gave him a prescription that worked. Despite the fact that there was just the one emergency room doctor (in all fairness this place has only recently qualified for the moniker 'city'. It's still pretty small) we were out of there in a couple of hours with some actual results.

I don't know about you, but I think I'd rather wait just a little bit longer and walk out without any debt at all than to get in right away and spend a year paying the bill. Our pharmacy plan is pretty good too. It's controlled by each province and where I am you pay a deductible relative to your income. I pay about $1200 a year to the province but my Blue Cross at work covers 80% of that. After the deductible, all drugs are free.

 

[rohanski]

I teach my kids there ain't nothing free!

 

[brett]

This thread is starting to go off on a tangent. This forum/thread is for talking about beer, not about debating health care.

 

[Poindexter]

This thread is starting to go off on a tangent. This forum/thread is for talking about beer, not about debating health care.

Thanks Brett. How do you sanitize your bottles? What have you tried that didn't work?

 

[Ó Flannagáin]

I've yet to have an infection. I rinse ever thing out with reallllly hot water and my hand, then I sanitize with either iodophor or one step. I don't think you have to try too hard, you just have to make sure there's not gunk anywhere, and the sanitizer touches everything.

 

[eviljafar]

How hot does it actually get in a dishwasher during the drying cycle?

BTW, not all drugs are free in Canada (of course I'm talking about alcohol and tobacco )

 

[Alamo_Beer]

It depends on the DW model...

I've got an el cheapo one that I tested. I put one of those digital thermometors that have the probe (you know for roasts and stuff) and it easily stayed over 200* (around 210-220* if I remember right) for the bulk of the cycle.

I've used the DW before and it's worked fine

 

[rohanski]

This subject of infections really tears me up. Everyone keeps saying they have never had an infection and some seem to even take sanitation light heartedly. Yesterday I was watching a video on crotchrot's site and he had a horse licking his mash tun while he was mashing. I'd go insane if I that happened to me. I am extreeeemely maticulous with sanitation and I think I'm going on 12 bad ones now. I guess what I am trying to say is you might go for a long time as I did with no problem and then it gets you. I have had a few infections but they were easily stopped with a good soak in bleach. Now I am baking my carboy even after bleach didn't work. The jury is still out on this one.

 

[El_Borracho]

I used to fiddle with fungi production, I love ****ake!

I've never had a problem keeping large open environments sterile. I used a combination of clorox, lysol, and boiled water - depending on the application. Clorox clean up is really good stuff too..

I plan to use the sterilization products the brew shops sell for my bottles and fermenting vessels until it runs out. From there I will be switching to watered down clorox and a good hot water rinse. If I have to, i'll switch back to the sterilization products..

Be clean about it, keep your hands clean, keep your area clean.. Work efficient, plan ahead.. I ain't too worried about it, neither should you.

 

[rohanski]

Maybe I should go back to what I did when I first started. Use ice in the wort to cool it, use all plastic, use one step only, no starters. It all worked great for a long time then BAM! Now I have an infection that's like stink on $hit.

 

[brett]

Thanks Brett. How do you sanitize your bottles? What have you tried that didn't work?

I rinse directly after use. Then on bottling day I use a bottle brush+dishsoap, then they go into the dish washer for a rinse and heated dry cycle.

Works pretty well. Like you said, they just have to be *clean* before they go into the dish washer.

 

[Poindexter]

keep your hands clean

Wow. It took 26 posts for that to come out in the open. Here we go.

1. I am sure no one on this board does it, but I have an assignment for you guys and gals. When you have some free time out in public to people watch next, start your chronograph and see how long it takes to spot someone either picking their nose _or_ touching their face in the vicinity of their nose. How long to spot two or three or five?

The nose is a perfect environment to culture bacteria. Warm, moist, dark; bacteria love it. Now think about all those people harvesting from their personal bacteria farms every how every many minutes.

A really good habit, I think, for a home brewer is to wash your hands right at the end of the boil, dry your hands with a clean towel - and be very careful to wash your hands AGAIN if you so much as touch your face before the pitch.

 

[Poindexter]

I guess what I am trying to say is you might go for a long time as I did with no problem and then it gets you.

This tendency is why medical people have to keep taking classes on basic stuff year after year after year. Very easy to slip or get complacent.

I have had a few infections but they were easily stopped with a good soak in bleach. Now I am baking my carboy even after bleach didn't work. The jury is still out on this one.

At 2-3 ozs per gallon H2O an overnight soak of your carboy should have been plenty. The exception would be if you have a visible scratch on the inside surface with visible crud in it.

After 30 minutes at 220°F there was nothing alive in your carboy, assuming it was dry at the beginning and dry all the way through. But if someone walked by and sneezed on it right when it cooled down to or below about 165°F, well...

I do feel for you and will go looking for your thread of what you have tried already...

 

[rohanski]

I agree. I usually rinse my hands in the starsan solution when I pull out the funnel to transfer the wort to the carboy. And above all never touch the wort or anything that comes in contact with the wort.

 

[El_Borracho]

Wow. It took 26 posts for that to come out in the open. Here we go.

1. I am sure no one on this board does it, but I have an assignment for you guys and gals. When you have some free time out in public to people watch next, start your chronograph and see how long it takes to spot someone either picking their nose _or_ touching their face in the vicinity of their nose. How long to spot two or three or five?

The nose is a perfect environment to culture bacteria. Warm, moist, dark; bacteria love it. Now think about all those people harvesting from their personal bacteria farms every how every many minutes.

A really good habit, I think, for a home brewer is to wash your hands right at the end of the boil, dry your hands with a clean towel - and be very careful to wash your hands AGAIN if you so much as touch your face before the pitch.

Like I mentioned earlier, I've done other things that involved as much, if not more sterility. If I'm working in the kitchen and my hand grazed the sides of the counter tops - I got to wash - that's not a place I spray clorox and wipe. What if I scratched my leg over my shorts. Or a drop fell in my eye and I wiped it off. I have a healthy obsession with keeping my hands clean. People watching is what made me such a damn germ-o-phobe.

 

[rohanski]

El Borracho

All very good points. The most critical time is between cool down and transfer which I usually do within 10 minutes. That 10 minutes has been a killer for me. I want to try throwing on the lid after boil and cool in an ice bath thus lestening exposure time.

 

[the_wickster]

The nose is a perfect environment to culture bacteria. Warm, moist, dark; bacteria love it. Now think about all those people harvesting from their personal bacteria farms every how every many minutes.

Oh no. I don't think I'm ever going to leave my house again after reading that.

Good thing I have an immune system.

Oxyclean -> Rinse -> Starsan -> wort & pitch or rack & keg.
Good beer!

What is the difference between sanitized and sterilized?

 

[El_Borracho]

What is the difference between sanitized and sterilized?

http://www.bodensatz.com/staticpages/index.php?page=sanitation

"Sanitize vs. Sterilize
First of all, lets get our terminology straight -- you are not sterilizing anything. That it simply not an option for even a mega-brewery, let alone for a homebrewer. What you want to do is sanitize, or get rid of the vast majority of any harmful bacteria, but not all of it."

So this tells me (if he knows what he is talking about) its like a 99.9 sterile environment? Meaning it's not completely germ free.

I'm wondering if it's similar to pasteurization?

 

[BierMuncher]

I'm a bleach guy...

Not so exact with the measurements...a heafty splash of bleach and some hot tap water...as good shaking around...a good hot water rinse x 3 and off to the rack to drip dry.

Never had an issue.

 

[Poindexter]

What is the difference between sanitized and sterilized?

The other thing was your wort does not have an immune system, but I think you were joking about that...


A sterile object has no living anything on it. Not even bacterial spores.

In the OR we talk about levels of 'disinfection' rather than sanitation.

An item that has been subject to "high level disinfection" might (or might not) have some viable spores on it, but no living micro-organisms. Tuberculosis is a spore forming bacteria, so are the bacteria in genus Clostridium. Spores are sort of like eggs, in that they have a hard protective shell but will 'inflate' and come to 'life' in the presence of water at appropriate temperatures. Actually dry yeast are yeast spores, not living yeaset cells. Then there is mid-level disinfection, low level disinfection is like the combs in the barber shop...

I'll go read up on 'sanitation' to find out what brewers mean when they use the term.

Working from www.wiktionary.org , disinfection is a subset of sanitation. Works for me, with surgical sterility being the ultimate in disinfection.

So with sanitation (@wiki) = the policy and practice of protecting health (of the yeast for us) through hygenic measures...... we got to look up hygeine and we are back to cleaning every bottle with a scrub brush.

So phylogeny recapitulating ontology again, sanitizers can not disinfect what cleaners have not yet rendered hygenic.

Thanks for the straight line wickster, that was cute.

 

[Alamo_Beer]

I wonder if you could "fight" an infection, or in other words help prevent against one by pitching an insane amount of yeast...you know the whole "choke them out" kinda thing

 

[Fingers]

A yeast surge!

 

[eviljafar]

I once had a bad infection. Luckily it was only in my beer and didn't travel to any of my more sensitive areas.

I read someone somewhere suggesting to use glad/sarin wrap on the fermenter, held on with the large o-ring from the lid, in place of the lid. The idea was that you could see what was going on in the fermenter. A pinhole was poked in the plastic wrap to allow CO2 to escape. It all sounds good in theory and I did it many times without any problems. This was in Aus where a single width of sarin wrap would cover the top of the standard fermenter.

One time though I didn't notice I had spilled a little something on the back of the fermenter. A few days later I took a sample for an SG reading. Then I went away for a couple of weeks. When I got back I had an obvious problem. White/green mould on the wort. I took off the "lid" and had a smell. My god, it nearly knocked me over. It was like having knitting needles shoved up my nostrils and into the back of my eyes.

I think that some mould/fungus/wrath of god formed on the dribble of wort on the outside of the fermenter. When I took the sample I think some air travelled over this area and was sucked into the fermenter, bringing spores/spawn of the devil into my wort. Two weeks later and my punishment was meted out. That was like 15 years ago and I can still remember what it smells like.

Now when I want to take a sample I wipe the fermenter with a cloth soaked in sanitiser a few minutes in advance.