A question about Brett.

[bernardsmith]

In his lovely book, Wild Mead, David Doucette (AKA Marshmallow Blue) states on p.38 that Brett can ferment lactose to make alcohol. This is something that really interests me as I make wine and mead ON whey but have not been able to successfully ferment this milk sugar without adding lactaid. Can anyone confirm that Brett has this ability, and if they can does this apply to any and all varieties of Brett I can buy from my LHBS ( claussenii, bruxellensis, lambicus) or is this a characteristic of a less common strain? Thanks.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Just search for "Lactose" on this page. Plenty of brett strains appear capable.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces

 

[RPh_Guy]

"B. anomalus (aka claussenii) are generally able to ferment lactose, but B. bruxellensis is generally not."

The wiki references a thread started a year ago. The OP might look familiar...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/2455742991120567/?comment_id=2468302423197957&reply_comment_id=2471170252911174&comment_tracking={"tn":"R3"}

lambicus

"Lambicus" is a strain of B. bruxellensis, by the way.

There is not much info about this, sorry. Not many people are wanting to ferment milk apparently.

Also, I don't have David Doucette's book, but I've found a lot of misinformation in his articles/blog posts. I would recommend a little skepticism.

 

[bernardsmith]

Just search for "Lactose" on this page. Plenty of brett strains appear capable.

http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Brettanomyces

But there are many folk on Milk the Funk (facebook) who in different posts appear to claim that this Brett or that Brett doesn't in fact ferment lactose and indeed, the Trios mix was claimed by someone not to be able to ferment lactose and Trios has all three of these strains... hence my question.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Are you in the US? I have a lot of different Brett cultures in my yeast ranch. If you want, I could test them (I would mix them all together) to see it they can fully attenuate a starter with mostly lactose. I could mail you the culture if it works.

I don't have any cultures that I know explicitly are B. clausenii, but there might be anything in most of these mixed cultures.

 

[cactusgarrett]

But there are many folk on Milk the Funk (facebook) who in different posts appear to claim that this Brett or that Brett doesn't in fact ferment lactose and indeed, the Trios mix was claimed by someone not to be able to ferment lactose and Trios has all three of these strains... hence my question.

You are highly likely to get first-hand experience posting this question on the Milk The Funk facebook page. I'm sure there will be tons of empirical evidence there.

 

[bernardsmith]

"B. anomalus (aka claussenii) are generally able to ferment lactose, but B. bruxellensis is generally not."

The wiki references a thread started a year ago. The OP might look familiar...
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MilkTheFunk/permalink/2455742991120567/?comment_id=2468302423197957&reply_comment_id=2471170252911174&comment_tracking={"tn":"R3"}

Thanks RPh_Guy. I am familiar with my own words and posts but I have not had much success (read: any success) with Claussennii and I don't know whether that is me or that is the Brett. I do know that K. Marxianus costs about a mortgage to buy and I do not have the skills or the equipment to isolate and grow this from kefir grains which I believe is one source of the KM.
Do you happen to know if Anomalus is a strain that can be obtained by a home brewer or is this something that must be purchased at industrial scale?

 

[bernardsmith]

You are highly likely to get first-hand experience posting this question on the Milk The Funk facebook page. I'm sure there will be tons of empirical evidence there.

I posted this question there too but here's the thing. In a number of different posts Milk the Funk people say that in fact despite what their Wiki page says about Claussenii, it does not seem to ferment lactose. When I tried this last year, I was not able to observe any change in gravity and gave up monitoring after a few weeks. I never tossed out the sample... and I am not able to check it until the end of this weekend.. (and I certainly will) but I guess I am not expecting the best...

 

[bernardsmith]

Are you in the US? I have a lot of different Brett cultures in my yeast ranch. If you want, I could test them (I would mix them all together) to see it they can fully attenuate a starter with mostly lactose. I could mail you the culture if it works.

I don't have any cultures that I know explicitly are B. clausenii, but there might be anything in most of these mixed cultures.

I live upstate NY. If you would be interested in checking to see if you have any cultures that can ferment lactose that would be wonderful. Happy to PM you my mailing address.

There's been an uptick in a folk interest in making blaand and other similar wines from whey but no one is trying to use any cultures that actually ferment the lactose as would have been done when blaand, for example, was a standard drink in the islands and highlands of Scotland. What we seem to be doing is fermenting on the whey and using the whey only as the flavoring element rather than the source of sugars.

I am certain that the various folk who are now making vodka from whey must have a culture to ferment the whey rather than dumping lactase into the whey to ferment that way (pun intended) before distilling their wine. But they are tight lipped and for the record, allowing a whey wine to age for a year or longer does in fact make for a very drinkable wine, so I imagine whey brandy may taste very good. And here's the thing: whey for most people is a waste product and finding effective ways to get rid of this waste is not easy - pouring whey down the drain creates incredible problems because of the removal of oxygen from the water caused by algae growth. Turning this waste into gold (OK, wine) is a wonderful way to up-cycle whey (or is that wonderful whey to up-cycle way?)

 

[RPh_Guy]

Do you happen to know if Anomalus is a strain that can be obtained by a home brewer or is this something that must be purchased at industrial scale?

B. claussenii is just another name for the species B. anomalus. Many different strains of B. anomalus/claussenii are available to homebrewers.

I live upstate NY. If you would be interested in checking to see if you have any cultures that can ferment lactose that would be wonderful. Happy to PM you my mailing address.

Sure, I can test them sometime in the next couple months, if that's ok? I don't have lactose on hand.

 

[bernardsmith]

That would be fabulous, RPh_Guy. But if you simply added the Brett to a half pint or so of milk would that not provide the lactose? I am assuming that if there is CO2 produced and the gravity drops by about 20 points +/- the Brett is doing something good. I think - but am not certain - that if there are lacto bacteria in with the Brett and it is the bacteria and not the Brett that is feeding on the lactose and transforming the sugar into lactic acid there will be no CO2 produced (but I could be wrong).

 

[RPh_Guy]

I would be more comfortable testing it without all the fat and protein in milk ... Maybe it's just my lack of experience fermenting milk but I'm worried it might go rancid or affect the specific gravity somehow (by coagulation?).

if there is CO2 produced and the gravity drops by about 20 points +/- the Brett is doing something good. I think - but am not certain - that if there are lacto bacteria in with the Brett and it is the bacteria and not the Brett that is feeding on the lactose and transforming the sugar into lactic acid there will be no CO2 produced (but I could be wrong).

That's correct, more or less. Some bacteria are heterofermentative and can produce a slight amount of alcohol and CO2, but not on a level comparable to yeast fermentation.

 

[bernardsmith]

Makes sense about the milk, but if you were to heat the milk a little and add say a little lemon juice of vinegar you would clabber the milk and the whey would separate from the curds. The curds strained off the whey, with a little salt and or some herbs or spices are delicious and that whey (acidic whey as it is called in cheese making as opposed to cultured whey or sweet whey) should contain just about all the lactose that was in the milk... I would expect the gravity of that whey to be around 1.020

 

[brownni5]

Mmm, fermented milk!

 

[bernardsmith]

Mmm, fermented milk!

You laugh, but fermented whey is actually quite drinkable. It was a folk drink in the highlands and Islands of Scotland and parts of Scandinavia until the early years of the 20th Century and is a folk drink in the Urals even today (known as koumis). Brewers often add lactose to their beers to increase mouthfeel and sweetness.

Cracked open a bottle of blaand with some friends today that I made Nov 2018 when I added some caramelized sugar and baking chocolate. Don't have my notes with me but I see I used D47 and I imagine the ABV is about 10%. Color of straw and absolutely crystal clear. I know the whey was a sweet whey (cultured with bacteria and not soured with lemon juice or vinegar) and the wine is not bad. Not bad, but not something I would send to competition, though a version of koumis I made about 3 years ago was bloody fantastic.

If you make cheese then whey is a waste product that you need to get rid of and if you can turn the whey into wine then you are up-cycling a waste product and turning it into gold.

 

[brownni5]

You laugh, but fermented whey is actually quite drinkable. It was a folk drink in the highlands and Islands of Scotland and parts of Scandinavia until the early years of the 20th Century and is a folk drink in the Urals even today (known as koumis).

Traditionally, the Scots eat/ate haggis and the Scandinavians lutefisk. You'll have to pardon me if I don't trust their taste buds !

 

[mashpaddled]

With most things involving brett it's hard to lock down concrete answers because there is not that much research on brett (compared to saccharomyces, for example) and a lot of incorrect info floating around in brewing circles. The way yeast labs sell brett in particular make it sound like anomalus is a singular strain but it is an entire species with genetic diversity. One culture of anomalus might ferment lactose while another does not and whether a particular culture will ferment lactose may depend upon the conditions available--such as nutrients or companion microbes--for a given culture.

Best thing to do IMO is to go directly to the folks on milk the funk who say they have experience with brett fermenting lactose and see exactly what strain they used and under what conditions that is true. I am skeptical of a lot of these claims about brett and lactose fermentation. It seems like a lot of the people who say it is possible are repeating things they have been told brett being an all consuming organism or looking at an infected milk stouts and deciding it must be brett and must be consuming the lactose.

 

[S-Met]

Traditionally, the Scots eat/ate haggis and the Scandinavians lutefisk. You'll have to pardon me if I don't trust their taste buds !

Haggis is an incredibly generic dish that varies by family. It's kind of like asking if you like pot roast or stew. Some are amazing, others are disgusting - depending on who made it.

I can't speak for lutefisk... maybe one day.

 

[bernardsmith]

Best thing to do IMO is to go directly to the folks on milk the funk who say they have experience with brett fermenting lactose and see exactly what strain they used and under what conditions that is true. I am skeptical of a lot of these claims about brett and lactose fermentation. It seems like a lot of the people who say it is possible are repeating things they have been told brett being an all consuming organism or looking at an infected milk stouts and deciding it must be brett and must be consuming the lactose.

Very convincing post, mashpaddled. You have given me something to do and I will do it. A great deal of what counts as "truth claims" among home brewers and wine makers are simply old wives tales repeated again and again and are then taken as unquestionable.

For the record, my plan to test the claim that Brett C can ferment lactose is to obtain a tube of Brett C from my LHBS and add this to a quart of skimmed milk that I will clabber by heating and then adding lemon juice. This will mean that the only significant colony of microbes in the whey will be the Brett C. The SG of whey is about 1.020 and if over the next month or so the gravity drops significantly then the likely candidate must be the Brett C. The last time I performed a similar experiment 1. the ambient temperature was perhaps too cool for the Brett C (around 60 F) and I had "clabbered" the milk with active kefir and kefir has a large number of lacto bacteria that eat lactose and produce lactic acid, and those bacteria may have out-competed the Brett C. To rectify these issues I am avoiding kefir, I am in effect pasteurizing the milk and I am going to allow the Brett C to do its work at around 80+F by standing the fermenter in a hot water bath.

 

[bernardsmith]

Here's where I am this evening: I spoke with my LHBS and was told that they sell so little Brett C that he only gets it in now as a special order but he called the lab about whether they can confirm that Brett C can in fact ferment lactose. Waiting for an answer. Milk the Funk facebook page suggests that Brett C is not a specific strain but is a variety of strains based on Brett Anomalus only some (or none?) of which have been shown to ferment lactose...So what I did was to add some lactose to some water (4 oz to make a scant quart), to obtain an SG of 1.040 and after adding 4 crushed tabs of lactaid and some yeast nutrient I pitched a pack of Premier Blanc yeast and placed the container in a water bath heated with an aquarium heater (about 85F).

After about 60 minutes this has taken off like a rocket. Going to monitor this over the 7 days to see how far the gravity drops but this appears to show that the concept works of turning lactose into ethanol.

If I can obtain a "wine" at around 5% using lactaid tablets, the next step is to see if I can use the same technique using the cruder whey product. And if that works to see if I can use Brett C to do the same thing without the added step of adding the enzyme to break down the lactose.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Brett C is not a specific strain but is a variety of strains based on Brett Anomalus

"Brett C" is a short (and incorrect) way to say "Brettanomyces claussenii" (which is a synonymous with Brettanomyces anomalus). These are species names. The proper way to shorten a species name in biological nomenclature is: B. claussenii
Since B. claussenii (AKA B. anomalus) is a species, there exist a large diversity of strains that fall within this name, same as we see with Saccharomyces cerevisiae... except Brettanomyces species probably have even greater diversity.

So what I did was to add some lactose to some water (4 oz to make a scant quart), to obtain an SG of 1.040 and after adding 4 crushed tabs of lactaid and some yeast nutrient I pitched a pack of Premier Blanc yeast and placed the container in a water bath heated with an aquarium heater (about 85F).

Lactaid (enzyme) breaks down lactose (a disaccharide) into its individual molecules of glucose and galactose, both of which Saccharmyces is know to ferment quite easily. It will attenuate 100%, assuming the Lactaid breaks down all the lactose.

I think you know all of that already, so was this just to see whether Lactaid can break down the lactose? That's what it's designed to do.

If I can obtain a "wine" at around 5% using lactaid tablets, the next step is to see if I can use the same technique using the cruder whey product.

Lactaid will also break down the lactose in whey. This enzyme is used in milk to make lactose-free milk.

I'm not following how this demonstration helps with the question of whether Brett can ferment the Lactose by itself.

 

[madscientist451]

Have you tried the Omega hothead or Kviek yeasts with whey? Those yeasts are different than the usual beer yeasts and originate in Norway.
Supposedly the Vikings put whey in casks and took them along in their longships on raiding voyages. When they got done with pillaging and burning at their destination, they celebrated with a boozy drink. Apparently nothing in writing exists about their process, but perhaps some of the above yeasts might work?

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi RPh_Guy, Here's the thing: It is not clear to me how to calculate the number of tablets of lactaid (for the lactase) I need for every gallon of whey or even how long I need to wait after adding crushed tabs to the whey for the enzyme to work or at what temperature is optional for this enzyme.. So I took a stab and it seems to be working.
The other thing is that with this "test" I am using "pure" lactose dissolved in water. For the real thing, I will be using whey but the whey is produced through the application of a consortium of bacteria and yeast - kefir grains, to milk I am using to make hard cheese, and many of the bacteria are lactose eating. They produce lactic acid from the lactose. You suggested that lactic acid has about the same density (specific gravity) as lactose so if they are still active in the whey (although I am working to eliminate these bacteria with heat) and if it is the bacteria that are converting the lactose into lactic acid , and not the yeast (and so the yeast have very little lactose to convert to ethanol) then I should not see a significant drop in gravity. But if the drop is significant then I know that ethanol is being produced by the yeast , so, even before I obtain the B. Clausennii I need to check to make sure that I see a significant drop in gravity if I add lactaid and S. Cerevisiae yeast to whey. When I then pitch B. Clausennii I will have enough evidence, I think, to determine whether yeast labeled "B Clausennii" is or is not able to ferment lactose. Simple, no?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Sounds reasonable. One thing to keep in mind is that Saccharomyces is much more aggressive than Brettanomyces. If there are bacteria in the mix, Brett will typically give the bacteria a significantly longer period of time to ferment.
You can make a pure Brett starter a week in advance to give it a leg up.

 

[bernardsmith]

Thanks, RPh_Guy. This is useful to know.

 

[roddog]

Just ran across this thread and by chance, just dosed my sweet whey with some Lactaid (crushed 6 pills for ~1 gallon). Not sure there is any way to tell if the lactose has been broken into glucose + galactose... So, I pitched in a packet of Lalvin 1118 to the mix to see how it goes. Any further movement on the B. anomalus (aka grabbag of distinct taxa)?

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi roddog, I think if you taste the whey before and after you add the lactaid the lactose should taste much more sweet after the enzymes have been working for a bit (glucose is far more sweet than lactose, but I think that if there is only lactose and the lactaid and you pitch S. Cerevisiae AND you see action in the airlock (CO2) and you observe a drop in gravity then you know that the lactose has been converted. As RPh_Guy noted lacto bacateria might eat the lactose but they don't produce CO2 (action in the airlock) and any drop in gravity must (all other things being equal) be due to the production of ethanol (lactic acid having the same density as lactose (so no change in gravity if all you have are active bacteria producing lactic acid from the lactose.

I have no been able to obtain B anomalous per se, but my LHBS called Omega Labs and they say that they think that Clausenni CAN convert lactose to ethanol. Clausenni is not something that brewers in my area look for but my LHBS fellow is ordering me some (in fact today) and so, I should be able to buy a tube next week. What I have to do for this test is remember not to add any sugar to up the gravity of the lactose. (what I tend to do every time I have a batch is heat the whey to near boiling to kill the cultures and then add table sugar and when cooled I add lactaid (or not) and pitch some yeast (or a yeast cake from a previous fermentation).

 

[Tetrarch]

Makes sense about the milk, but if you were to heat the milk a little and add say a little lemon juice of vinegar you would clabber the milk and the whey would separate from the curds. The curds strained off the whey, with a little salt and or some herbs or spices are delicious and that whey (acidic whey as it is called in cheese making as opposed to cultured whey or sweet whey) should contain just about all the lactose that was in the milk... I would expect the gravity of that whey to be around 1.020

Could this method of producing whey/lactose be used, in conjunction with various bretts from a ranch, to carry out a series of tests?
If the tests were started in a sealed container (plastic 2 litre bottle with the cap screwed tightly), would evidence of CO2 prove the point?

 

[bernardsmith]

Hi Tetrarch, I would say, absolutely, yes. But I would want to monitor the change in gravity. You would need to be certain that you were observing CO2 and not simply bubbling in an airlock which could be produced by several causes (if the air in the head was warmed by any bacterial activity other than yeast then that air would expand and may cause bubbling , for example)

 

[roddog]

OK, so here is my experiment.

1. I made a Caerphilly and saved about a gallon of whey.
2. I measured the gravity of this whey, it was 1.022

3. I took 6 lactaid pills, crushed them in a mortal & pestal, and added them to the whey.
4. After a few hours (at room temperature) I measured the gravity again, it was 1.026. Lactaid takes Lactose and splits it into glucose and galactose...

5. I pitched in a packet of Lalvin 1118, which is the monster Champagne yeast that wine kit manufacturers put in almost every wine kit because it is such a monster at fermenting anything.
6. In 2 days, I took another gravity reading, it is down to 1.014

and the whey is now 'spritzy' (notice the bubbles on the vessel)

This suggests to me that:

1) One can take the lactose and reduce it to glucose and galactose. The amount of Lactaid required is still a variable to be worked out.
2) One can then ferment using normal yeasts, to get alcohol from this fluid. Gonna have to do something about the cream components though.

So, it does appear that, with a trip to the pharmacist, we can use the raw sugars within whey to create a fermented product. Now, the key is how to (a) optimize the transformation of lactose -> glucose + galactose via Lactaid, and (b) what additional components do we need to make this into a drink of distinction (kinda has a parmesan flavor right now so some kind of adjunct will be necessary).