A question about Brett.

[roddog]

This next weekend, I'm making a Cotswold, I will save the whey again and test a batch of fermentation of non-Lactaid vs. Lactaid. What I've done thus far does not show that the Lactaid did the reduction of Lactose if the milk has simple sugars in it already, then I would see no difference in the two treatments. This is a base-line need. I am a University Professor, so I may be able to get an HPLC run to characterize the sugars in the whey, which will be informative and another line of evidence.

I'd like to also do a larger batch where I reduced with Lactaid then boiled down to concentrate the sugars prior to fermentation. 1.026 is a really weak fermentation. Biol it down to 1/3 and pitch again... Now we are talking.

 

[jekeane]

Omega All the bretts has at least 1 brett strain that does ferment lactose. I have used it in secondary with a lactose beer that didnt turn out as i hoped. When i pitched all the bretts the beer was 1.024 and the beer got down to 1.002 before I packaged.

 

[roddog]

Omega All the bretts has at least 1 brett strain that does ferment lactose. I have used it in secondary with a lactose beer that didnt turn out as i hoped. When i pitched all the bretts the beer was 1.024 and the beer got down to 1.002 before I packaged.

Interesting! Thanks jekeane! I'll give that a try instead of the 1118.

 

[RPh_Guy]

OK, so here is my experiment.

1. I made a Caerphilly and saved about a gallon of whey.
2. I measured the gravity of this whey, it was 1.022

3. I took 6 lactaid pills, crushed them in a mortal & pestal, and added them to the whey.
4. After a few hours (at room temperature) I measured the gravity again, it was 1.026. Lactaid takes Lactose and splits it into glucose and galactose...

5. I pitched in a packet of Lalvin 1118, which is the monster Champagne yeast that wine kit manufacturers put in almost every wine kit because it is such a monster at fermenting anything.
6. In 2 days, I took another gravity reading, it is down to 1.014

and the whey is now 'spritzy' (notice the bubbles on the vessel)

This suggests to me that:

1) One can take the lactose and reduce it to glucose and galactose. The amount of Lactaid required is still a variable to be worked out.
2) One can then ferment using normal yeasts, to get alcohol from this fluid. Gonna have to do something about the cream components though.

So, it does appear that, with a trip to the pharmacist, we can use the raw sugars within whey to create a fermented product. Now, the key is how to (a) optimize the transformation of lactose -> glucose + galactose via Lactaid, and (b) what additional components do we need to make this into a drink of distinction (kinda has a parmesan flavor right now so some kind of adjunct will be necessary).

Looks like bits of pellicle in your 3rd and 4th photos, which indicates wild microbial activity.

This next weekend, I'm making a Cotswold, I will save the whey again and test a batch of fermentation of non-Lactaid vs. Lactaid. What I've done thus far does not show that the Lactaid did the reduction of Lactose if the milk has simple sugars in it already, then I would see no difference in the two treatments. This is a base-line need. I am a University Professor, so I may be able to get an HPLC run to characterize the sugars in the whey, which will be informative and another line of evidence.

I'd like to also do a larger batch where I reduced with Lactaid then boiled down to concentrate the sugars prior to fermentation. 1.026 is a really weak fermentation. Biol it down to 1/3 and pitch again... Now we are talking.

I would suggest the following for a dose-finding study:
Pasteurize first, then split into 4 test batches (could be as little as 250mL per batch).

1. No lactaid (control)
2. 2 tablets per liter
3. 4 tablets per liter
4. 8 tablets per liter

See which gravity drops the lowest.

 

[roddog]

A couple of comments on the floating things. They appeared to me to be just whey proteins. It is not uncommon to take the raw whey from cheesemaking like this and get secondary cheeses from it (almost like a cheese partigyle if you will). Perhaps in the next round, I'll make more ricotta (there is only so much ricotta anyone needs though). I also used a creamline milk for this, which is a variety of milk that when you take it out of the fridge it is kind of like starting a new ketchup bottle, the cream solidifies and makes a nice plug and you gotta get in there with a knife and break the seal. In both tasting the sample and washing out the hydrometer flask, those globules were clearly cream or other whey protein. There is a considerable amount of proteins in the whey, many of which have settled out now (see below).

Perfect suggestion on dosing RPh_Guy.

 

[bernardsmith]

roddog, There has been a recent interest in making ethnic/historical wines made using whey - Blaand, for example (which may have been fermented with brett infected casks) and koumis. You can find posts on this forum and on Youtube.
That said, you may want to think about adding chocolate (nibs, or cocoa) or fruit to the must. In my experience whey wine changes its character after a few months and takes on a fruity flavor rather than a cheesy one.
Regarding your idea of reducing the water in your whey to concentrate the sugars - that is certainly one approach but I wonder if it may not use less energy to freeze the whey and then allow the whey to gently thaw. I would assume that the sugars are more likely to be in the first runnings so you are likely to obtain close to 100% of the sugars before 1/2 of the whey has melted - so your SG might be doubled without the use of any additional energy (assuming you have a freezer that is already working).
Last point: you are making hard cheeses - so you are adding cultures. I think you may need to heat the whey to near boiling before you begin to ferment it. Those cultures are (I think) going to continue to eat through the lactose (and perhaps the simpler sugars) so the lactic acid will increase at the cost of the ethanol.

 

[Tetrarch]

Hi Tetrarch, I would say, absolutely, yes. But I would want to monitor the change in gravity. You would need to be certain that you were observing CO2 and not simply bubbling in an airlock which could be produced by several causes (if the air in the head was warmed by any bacterial activity other than yeast then that air would expand and may cause bubbling , for example)

Experiments
2 litres milk, vinegar added, curds removed, check OG, pitch Brett in sealed plastic milk bottle and wait, check SG

Experiment No. 1: March 1st; pitch Saison blend (Wy3724 (Saison, WLP650 (B. Brux & WLP645 (B. Clausenii)
OG 1.025
17th March, no change to pressure or SG, experiment ended.
Orval cultured dregs added (may have LAB present).

Experiment No. 2: 7th March; pitch WLP 648 (B. Brux Trois Vrai)
OG 1.024
17th March, no change to pressure or SG, experiment ended.
3 Fonteinen Oude Geuze cultured dregs added.

Experiment No. 3: 7th March; pitch WLP653 (B. Lambicus)
OG 1.024
17th March, no noticeable pressure change, frothy top (possible krausen)
SG 1.020
Continue experiment, monitor SG.

 

[bernardsmith]

What I have done (so far) is to make a solution of water and powdered lactose (a quart) with a gravity of 1.040 and added B Clausennii.I have the fermenter sitting in a warm water bath heated with an aquarium heater. I am not seeing any bubbling in the airlock but I do see that there is a difference in height between the two sides of the airlock, not seeing a drop in gravity but I can see a few columns of bubbles rising up in the measuring cylinder I used to measure the gravity a few minutes ago.
I chose , in the first instance to use lactose powder because I wanted to eliminate the possibility that any drop in gravity would be due to bacterial action. But tonight I am making a batch of hard cheese using sweet whey (bacterially cultured) and I intend to add the warm whey to this solution and see what happens.

 

[bernardsmith]

So after adding about 7 pints of "sweet" whey (acidified with culture, not acid) the bubbler is bubbling this morning (started yesterday but very slowly). I had heated this whey to about 190 F (to kill all the yeast and bacteria that would be in the whey because I use kefir made from kefir grains to culture the milk when I make cheese) and then allowed it to cool to blood temperature before adding this to the "starter" I had made using lactose. Unless there is something else going on - and for example, I failed to kill the cultures in the whey, then Claussenii would seem to ferment lactose.

A question: I normally add yeast nutrient when I make mead and wine. Should I be adding nutrient to this? Nutrients for yeast typically come from the addition of dead yeast cells (Fermaid K or O) but what kinds of nutrients (if any) does b. Claussenii require?

 

[RPh_Guy]

Should I be adding nutrient to this?

I would. All living organisms need basic stuff like nitrogen and phosphorus.

 

[Tetrarch]

@bernardsmith,
Are you conducting two separate tests, one with a solution of water and powdered lactose and one with "sweet" whey?
If so, how is the first one progressing.

 

[bernardsmith]

Thanks RPh_Guy. I added some nutrient without dissolving it first in water because I wanted to see if there was any gas saturating the liquid - and there was. No volcano, although I did get an inch or so of froth and foam so further proof of something going on with the claussenii

 

[bernardsmith]

@bernardsmith,
Are you conducting two separate tests, one with a solution of water and powdered lactose and one with "sweet" whey?
If so, how is the first one progressing.

Just one experiment. I guess I wanted to use the lactose as a "starter" as it were because I heard that claussenii can take weeks to begin any activity (is that true or a fairy tale?) I added the sweet whey (the pH is higher when you use cultures to ripen the milk than if you use lemon juice or vinegar) after I saw signs of activity in the airlock but the gravity had not fallen appreciably. My plan is to let this sit in the hot water bath for a few weeks and then taste the solution to see if I can detect alcohol then I will measure the gravity to see how much it has dropped from about 1.023