A Mad Experiment

[Setsumi]

I must confess, I did not read all... did catch that you do have preferences in eating and association... myself lives in Africa and lion can be a delicatessen if prepared with a lot of marinate/sauce, but then pig will be better/cheaper the same way.

My suggestion is to take your steake, grill it to perfection and eat it while to your liking with a beer. If you have to travel, eat what you get or open a can.

 

[Owly055]

I must confess, I did not read all... did catch that you do have preferences in eating and association... myself lives in Africa and lion can be a delicatessen if prepared with a lot of marinate/sauce, but then pig will be better/cheaper the same way.

My suggestion is to take your steake, grill it to perfection and eat it while to your liking with a beer. If you have to travel, eat what you get or open a can.

Good advice, but you probably have gathered that I am not "normal". Normal folks don't have two steaks infected with botulism in the freezer. I'm a passionate experimenter. I challenge the established norms constantly and seek to find the real limits. I'm an iconoclast by nature and by inclination.
What part of Africa do you live in? It is my plan to sail down the coast of South East Africa on the Mozambique and Agulas currents west of Madagascar, and around the horn of Africa in the not too distant future, some of the most dangerous waters on earth, riding the Bengual current north far off the skeleton coast of Namibia, and stopping at St Helena on the way to South America. Merely a dream at this point. Perhaps we could have a beer in Maputo. Durban, Port Elisabeth, Capetown, or Walvis Bay.
The only lion I've eaten has been American Mountain Lion (Puma) (cougar). I live in a wild and remote place, and I've seen them a number of times, and been stalked by them, and hunted them. A truly beautiful animal. There is nothing to compare to the feeling of the hair standing up on the back of your neck, as you sense that presence, when alone and unarmed high in the rockies unarmed in mid winter. I once turned and charged one on cross country skis, with a ski pole as my only weapon. Fortunately for me, she fled, or you would be reading about this in the newspaper. With these animals fear can get you killed!
We must never forget that we are at the TOP of the food chain. Humans are the deadliest predator that have ever existed.

H.W.

 

[TXCrash]

Yet we save rotting steaks.

No wonder we have a zombie infatuation. Rotting flesh, you know.

 

[Setsumi]

What part of Africa do you live in?

South Africa - in the dry central part.

It is my plan to sail down the coast of South East Africa on the Mozambique and Agulas currents west of Madagascar, and around the horn of Africa in the not too distant future, some of the most dangerous waters on earth, riding the Bengual current north far off the skeleton coast of Namibia, and stopping at St Helena on the way to South America. Merely a dream at this point. Perhaps we could have a beer in Maputo. Durban, Port Elisabeth, Capetown, or Walvis Bay.

If you promise not to bring your steak with, roughly between Port Elisabeth and Cape Town is a place called Mosselbay - I spend my Decembers there. There are quite some craft breweries around.

The only lion I've eaten has been American Mountain Lion (Puma) (cougar). I live in a wild and remote place, and I've seen them a number of times, and been stalked by them, and hunted them. A truly beautiful animal. There is nothing to compare to the feeling of the hair standing up on the back of your neck, as you sense that presence, when alone and unarmed high in the rockies unarmed in mid winter. I once turned and charged one on cross country skis, with a ski pole as my only weapon. Fortunately for me, she fled, or you would be reading about this in the newspaper. With these animals fear can get you killed!
We must never forget that we are at the TOP of the food chain. Humans are the deadliest predator that have ever existed.

H.W.

good luck with the experiment, my bet is you will clean the cupboard soon..

 

[TXCrash]

good luck with the experiment, my bet is you will clean the cupboard soon..

It'll be a madder experiment.

 

[Owly055]

good luck with the experiment, my bet is you will clean the cupboard soon..

Not much danger of that ............... today is day 9 in an 80F dark cupboard. No sign of inflation yet or any other signs of decomposition / rotting yet. Remember that decomposition / rotting, is a biological process. If there are no living microbes, it can't rot.
I examine the meat at least daily, and it is in a small closed plastic tote. The two that did spoil are frozen now and awaiting examination by some willing microbiology student..........if I can find one.


H.W.

 

[blizzard]

I can't help but wonder what exactly the point of this experiment is. We have the technology to transport cuts of meat for long journeys and prepare them en route. There is no reason to transport a likely spoiled cut of beef with you.

You have already accepted that you aren't killing botulism spores. What is it you hope to gain by potentially exposing yourself to a lethal bacterium?

 

[Owly055]

I can't help but wonder what exactly the point of this experiment is. We have the technology to transport cuts of meat for long journeys and prepare them en route. There is no reason to transport a likely spoiled cut of beef with you.

You have already accepted that you aren't killing botulism spores. What is it you hope to gain by potentially exposing yourself to a lethal bacterium?

I think your reaction is pretty typical: "what's the point", and I don't have a really good answer to that. I feel that you assessment that the cut of beef is likely spoiled in unrealistic. Spoilage shows signs. Bacterium do not propagate and produce decomposition without leaving evidence, which is the reason I have a 90 day time frame for this.

15 days into the experiment, it appears to be 33% successful, which to me is quite impressive considering my methodology and the fact that I do not have a sterile environment to work in.
You and I do not look at things the same way obviously. While I do not regard "convention" with contempt, as it may appear, I do question it, and often explore the limits. Many conventions were established long ago, and designed to be 100% fool proof. If I was not inclined to explore the limits, I would never have discovered that I can achieve total conversion with a 10 minute mash, and developed a methodology that allowed me to do a 20-30 minute mash with good results, and I would not be doing a 30 minute boil. I would never have learned that no-boil / no-chill works, though the result does not thrill me as far as clarity goes.
I've been doing this sort of thing since childhood. I often don't know what use if any the knowledge gained will be put to. One microbial experiment I did 30 years ago has saved a friend of mine over $100K in his farming operation. A classic case was what my best friend and I did at age 12. We set out to see how high of a structure we could jump off and walk away unscathed. It was a project that horrified everybody who saw us doing it, and they asked the same question...."what's the point". We finally called it good when we could jump from the peak of the roof on our two storey house easily. We jumped off the picnic in the back yard constantly, practicing the "tuck and roll" landing. Learning not to try to resist the forces signficantly, but to redirect them in ways that would cushion the landing. It also trained us to go into an "accelerated thought" mental state during which the few seconds of the fall telescoped so that we were able to assess every aspect of the jump in milliseconds, and make decisions and physical adjustments needed during that very brief time. What was the point? There was no specific point. Who needs to jump nearly 30'? But that training has saved my ass numerous times. It has allowed me to drop into that mode of thought during emergencies on the highway and elsewhere, and make the right decision and action in a split second. It has allowed me to land well when thrown off horses a number of times. I spent two years of my life on horseback virtually all day long every day as a job, and accidents WILL happen with horses. It allowed me to fall from a tall haystack when tossing bales down to load my girlfriend's pickup, and come up unscathed. In that milliseconds from the time the bale under my foot "blew out" until I hit the ground, I made the only choices I had. I was able to twist such I threw myself away from the vehicle, and was able to use a brace pole which leaned up against the stack by catching it diagonally across my back so that it cushioned my fall somewhat and launched me outward, and I hit in the classic "tuck and roll" landing. When I went off the top of the stack, I knew exactly what was going to happen and how to position myself...... and how to land. It was all settled in my mind within a fraction of a second. Needless to say she was horrified when she saw me come off the top of the stack. I literally "launched myself" with what little purchase I had so that my actions were like those of a high diver. I wasn't even bruised, and we continued loading the pickup, but I was a bit wiser about where to put my feet. I never told her the story.
So what's the point of this experiment......... I honestly don't know. But I do know that after the 90 days I plan to run it, if there are no observable signs of decomposition, the product will the wholesome.

H.W.

 

[Weezy]

Alright, which of you guys stole Owl's meds????






j/k

What do you mean by 33% successful?

 

[blizzard]

I think your reaction is pretty typical: "what's the point",

My reaction is not "what's the point of learning through experimentation" it is: you have acknowledged that you haven't killed all of the pathogens (particularly botulism) and therefore you cannot produce a product that is safe to consume. As a result, you cannot have a successful result, regardless of how the meat appears. What is it you are trying to confirm? That you can make an ok looking piece of meat that is not edible?

15 days into the experiment, it appears to be 33% successful, which to me is quite impressive considering my methodology and the fact that I do not have a sterile environment to work in.

A sterile environment would not have provided adequate conditions to kill botulism spores. It may appear unspoiled, but again, that doesn't make it wholesome or safe to eat. That is why canned food guidelines repeatedly warn that proper protocol is important. Food that looks, smells, and tastes fine can be harmful.

If I was not inclined to explore the limits, I would never have discovered that I can achieve total conversion with a 10 minute mash, and developed a methodology that allowed me to do a 20-30 minute mash with good results, and I would not be doing a 30 minute boil. I would never have learned that no-boil / no-chill works, though the result does not thrill me as far as clarity goes.

If you were so inclined, you could have read work done by commercial breweries, who have researched shortened mash times. You could have researched historical no boil styles. Or you could have read the forums of our Australian friends, who pioneered no-chill techniques. None of these techniques require belligerent experimentation, simply an open mind and a few hours free for reading.

Long story about jumping

You are certainly welcome to experiment and enrich your life in whatever legal ways you see fit. If you want to store meat in your cupboards, go for it. Just don't come here encouraging others that this is a wholesome product with a 33% success rate, when the end result is likely to be harmful and potentially fatal to whomever tries it. This is a forum that tries to help noobs, not kill them.

 

[Owly055]

Let me point out the very obvious fact that you are making the highly unrealistic assumption that the while steak that remains and shows no visible sign of decomposition, it is never the less taking place............. Though there is no visible or detectable indication.......none whatsoever.

If you bother to read the published documents, you will discover that the signs include primarily swollen cans, odd odors, and discoloration.

The idea that someone could not detect the signs of the decomposition after a 90 day incubation period is beyond absurd. That the agents that produce deadly toxins like Botulinum can do their evil magic and leave no traces detectable to the human senses, is beyond absurd.

H.W.

My reaction is not "what's the point of learning through experimentation" it is: you have acknowledged that you haven't killed all of the pathogens (particularly botulism) and therefore you cannot produce a product that is safe to consume. As a result, you cannot have a successful result, regardless of how the meat appears. What is it you are trying to confirm? That you can make an ok looking piece of meat that is not edible?



A sterile environment would not have provided adequate conditions to kill botulism spores. It may appear unspoiled, but again, that doesn't make it wholesome or safe to eat. That is why canned food guidelines repeatedly warn that proper protocol is important. Food that looks, smells, and tastes fine can be harmful.



If you were so inclined, you could have read work done by commercial breweries, who have researched shortened mash times. You could have researched historical no boil styles. Or you could have read the forums of our Australian friends, who pioneered no-chill techniques. None of these techniques require belligerent experimentation, simply an open mind and a few hours free for reading.



You are certainly welcome to experiment and enrich your life in whatever legal ways you see fit. If you want to store meat in your cupboards, go for it. Just don't come here encouraging others that this is a wholesome product with a 33% success rate, when the end result is likely to be harmful and potentially fatal to whomever tries it. This is a forum that tries to help noobs, not kill them.

 

[bob1852]

If you bother to read the published documents...

Yet, time and time again you've said you don't trust the published literature...

 

[Owly055]

Yet, time and time again you've said you don't trust the published literature...

I have not said that at all............... I've pointed out that they are based on very broad margins of safety, as well as on short periods of exposure to the temps the recommend. They do not test exposure to 133F for 48 hours for obvious reasons. It's beyond what ordinary folks will do. The published literature is designed for home canning.

The botulism issue has never been in question. The fact that spores will survive these kinds of temps has never been in question, hence the 3000F sear in a large propane flame that I used to attempt to kill these spores. I consider that procedure 33% successful using the original, rather crude methodology in what is essentially a non-sterile environment.

It is completely inaccurate to suggest that I "don't trust the published literature", and you will not find any quote of my that truly says that.


H.W.

 

[blizzard]

Let me point out the very obvious fact that you are making the highly unrealistic assumption that the while steak that remains and shows no visible sign of decomposition, it is never the less taking place............. Though there is no visible or detectable indication.......none whatsoever.

If you bother to read the published documents, you will discover that the signs include primarily swollen cans, odd odors, and discoloration.

The idea that someone could not detect the signs of the decomposition after a 90 day incubation period is beyond absurd. That the agents that produce deadly toxins like Botulinum can do their evil magic and leave no traces detectable to the human senses, is beyond absurd.

H.W.

I've done quite a bit of reading on food preservation and everything I have read states clearly that food that looks, smells, and tastes fine can be harmful. Did it never occur to you that thousands of people get food poisoning each year? These aren't people digging into rotten food; they are eating food that seemed ok at the time.

Food preservation documents and information on botulism repeatedly stress that either high heat processing and/or cold storage are required to keep food safe to eat. Botulism in particular loves a warm, low-oxygen environment to produce its toxin. I'd think a steak in a vacuum packed bag in a cupboard would be ideal. Food safety experts agree that you can't tell if a food is contaminated by botulism by looking at it. It takes a very small amount of the toxin to hurt you. Food in a canning jar for a year or more can look fine and contain botulism.

The only thing absurd here is you trying to convince people to go against hundreds of years of science and history in producing safe food. Again, if you want to experiment, good luck and I hope there's a hospital nearby. But don't come on here convincing others to try your ill-conceived and harmful ideas.

 

[Pappers_]

A reminder that Owly's experiment is not a suggestion or recommendation that anyone eat cooked meat that's been left out for days. It seems that most of what needs to be said has been, so I'll close this thread.

 

[Yooper]

The idea that someone could not detect the signs of the decomposition after a 90 day incubation period is beyond absurd. That the agents that produce deadly toxins like Botulinum can do their evil magic and leave no traces detectable to the human senses, is beyond absurd.

H.W.

Well, it may be absurd to you. But it's true.

There are NO indications of botulism toxin in most cases. The first sign is severe illness (paralysis) and the second is death because it's a neurotoxin.

Luckily, there are only a hundred or so deaths in the US each year attributed to botulism, since most people are aware of the dangers. Since it grows anaerobically, it only thrives in cans/sealed containers and particularly at room temperature and especially in low acid foods.