A Mad Experiment

[Owly055]

Let me point out the very obvious fact that you are making the highly unrealistic assumption that the while steak that remains and shows no visible sign of decomposition, it is never the less taking place............. Though there is no visible or detectable indication.......none whatsoever.

If you bother to read the published documents, you will discover that the signs include primarily swollen cans, odd odors, and discoloration.

The idea that someone could not detect the signs of the decomposition after a 90 day incubation period is beyond absurd. That the agents that produce deadly toxins like Botulinum can do their evil magic and leave no traces detectable to the human senses, is beyond absurd.

H.W.

My reaction is not "what's the point of learning through experimentation" it is: you have acknowledged that you haven't killed all of the pathogens (particularly botulism) and therefore you cannot produce a product that is safe to consume. As a result, you cannot have a successful result, regardless of how the meat appears. What is it you are trying to confirm? That you can make an ok looking piece of meat that is not edible?



A sterile environment would not have provided adequate conditions to kill botulism spores. It may appear unspoiled, but again, that doesn't make it wholesome or safe to eat. That is why canned food guidelines repeatedly warn that proper protocol is important. Food that looks, smells, and tastes fine can be harmful.



If you were so inclined, you could have read work done by commercial breweries, who have researched shortened mash times. You could have researched historical no boil styles. Or you could have read the forums of our Australian friends, who pioneered no-chill techniques. None of these techniques require belligerent experimentation, simply an open mind and a few hours free for reading.



You are certainly welcome to experiment and enrich your life in whatever legal ways you see fit. If you want to store meat in your cupboards, go for it. Just don't come here encouraging others that this is a wholesome product with a 33% success rate, when the end result is likely to be harmful and potentially fatal to whomever tries it. This is a forum that tries to help noobs, not kill them.

 

[bob1852]

If you bother to read the published documents...

Yet, time and time again you've said you don't trust the published literature...

 

[Owly055]

Yet, time and time again you've said you don't trust the published literature...

I have not said that at all............... I've pointed out that they are based on very broad margins of safety, as well as on short periods of exposure to the temps the recommend. They do not test exposure to 133F for 48 hours for obvious reasons. It's beyond what ordinary folks will do. The published literature is designed for home canning.

The botulism issue has never been in question. The fact that spores will survive these kinds of temps has never been in question, hence the 3000F sear in a large propane flame that I used to attempt to kill these spores. I consider that procedure 33% successful using the original, rather crude methodology in what is essentially a non-sterile environment.

It is completely inaccurate to suggest that I "don't trust the published literature", and you will not find any quote of my that truly says that.


H.W.

 

[blizzard]

Let me point out the very obvious fact that you are making the highly unrealistic assumption that the while steak that remains and shows no visible sign of decomposition, it is never the less taking place............. Though there is no visible or detectable indication.......none whatsoever.

If you bother to read the published documents, you will discover that the signs include primarily swollen cans, odd odors, and discoloration.

The idea that someone could not detect the signs of the decomposition after a 90 day incubation period is beyond absurd. That the agents that produce deadly toxins like Botulinum can do their evil magic and leave no traces detectable to the human senses, is beyond absurd.

H.W.

I've done quite a bit of reading on food preservation and everything I have read states clearly that food that looks, smells, and tastes fine can be harmful. Did it never occur to you that thousands of people get food poisoning each year? These aren't people digging into rotten food; they are eating food that seemed ok at the time.

Food preservation documents and information on botulism repeatedly stress that either high heat processing and/or cold storage are required to keep food safe to eat. Botulism in particular loves a warm, low-oxygen environment to produce its toxin. I'd think a steak in a vacuum packed bag in a cupboard would be ideal. Food safety experts agree that you can't tell if a food is contaminated by botulism by looking at it. It takes a very small amount of the toxin to hurt you. Food in a canning jar for a year or more can look fine and contain botulism.

The only thing absurd here is you trying to convince people to go against hundreds of years of science and history in producing safe food. Again, if you want to experiment, good luck and I hope there's a hospital nearby. But don't come on here convincing others to try your ill-conceived and harmful ideas.

 

[Pappers_]

A reminder that Owly's experiment is not a suggestion or recommendation that anyone eat cooked meat that's been left out for days. It seems that most of what needs to be said has been, so I'll close this thread.

 

[Yooper]

The idea that someone could not detect the signs of the decomposition after a 90 day incubation period is beyond absurd. That the agents that produce deadly toxins like Botulinum can do their evil magic and leave no traces detectable to the human senses, is beyond absurd.

H.W.

Well, it may be absurd to you. But it's true.

There are NO indications of botulism toxin in most cases. The first sign is severe illness (paralysis) and the second is death because it's a neurotoxin.

Luckily, there are only a hundred or so deaths in the US each year attributed to botulism, since most people are aware of the dangers. Since it grows anaerobically, it only thrives in cans/sealed containers and particularly at room temperature and especially in low acid foods.