A case against kegging - Bottling is better

[SpanishCastleAle]

I force carb some kegs (some of which sit for a month at room temp and some that almost go straight into the keezer) and naturally carb others. The naturally carbed kegs always have smaller foam bubbles and better head, can't explain why.

IMO, it's easier to make crappy beer when brewing AG. More stuff to screw up.

When I BMBF (i.e. bottle from the keg) and let those bottles sit for a week or more (refrigerated the whole time) they seem a little better than the beer from the keg. Other than the extra time, I can't explain that either (might be my imagination too). But this contradicts the whole 'natural carb is betterer' notion.

Beer in a bottle only has to settle a few inches to be at the bottom of the bottle and that stuff at the bottom is left behind when we pour it. Beer in a keg has a lot longer distance to settle. When we pull a pint from a keg, we are pulling from the bottom of the keg, right where that 'cloud' of settled stuff is. The last few pours from a keg are the cleanest/clearest pours you'll get, just the opposite of the first few pours. And I'm not talking about beer that was racked too early. Beer has a lot of colliodal/suspended stuff in it and some of it takes a while at reduced temps to settle (not just lagers, all beers).

I disagree with much of the OP but I don't dismiss the fact that bottled is often slightly different than kegged.

 

[spiny_norman]

If its just the carbonation, why not just prime the keg like you do a bottle?

That's what I do. In fact my kegging process is identical to my bottling process. Regardless of whether I keg or bottle it's still going to condition for 3 or 4 months before it gets tapped (depending on the style).

 

[Edcculus]

I think conditioning most beer for 3-4 months might be overkill.

 

[Boerderij_Kabouter]

I disagree with much of the OP but I don't dismiss the fact that bottled is often slightly different than kegged.

Totally accurate. Bottled beer will always be different from keg beer. But the "better" pendulum can swing both ways. The bulk nature of a keg will always affect the character at least slightly.

 

[Scooby_Brew]

No offence Grinder12000, but you're basically wrong in pretty much everything you say. It seems to me you know very little about brewing. But yet, you make a lot of assumptions. Very wrong assumptions.
My question is how can I get back 45 seconds of my life it took me to read the original post?

 

[Christian]

It's a matter of perception i think and can be different for different folks. Yes a keg is just a big bottle, however some people can notice differences in flavor at different times in different size bottles.

I myself just started noticing it in my beers a couple years ago. I can notice a huge difference in 12oz v 22oz v keg. 12oz bottles finish and mature much faster than when i bottle in 22oz bottles and both mature way faster than when i keg. It might just be me but like i said it can be different for different folks. I even mentioned it on here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/flavor-differences-bottles-103127/ and most people agreed with me, including Revvy who says he bottles a sixer for comps. It's much the same as wine enthusiasts who determine their drinking rotation based on bottling and bottle types.

But like i said it can be a matter of perception that's different for different folks.

 

[springer]

Good question. Not being a kegger I don't know, my gut feeling is that because kegging is easier AND faster you can drink faster. maybe a kegger (who is now pissed at me LOL) can answer this. . . . .can you?

Grinder if this is directed at me because I have disagreed with you several time on this matter I don't get pissed lol . In every response to the "bottle beer is much better" I responded if all thing were equal with fermentation and conditioning they would be the same .I think most everyone will agree that bulk aging is better.

I agree 100%. That is a no brainer "when used properly and effectively."

Yea - I guess I have a short fuse also. I don't mind being called wrong (happens a lot) I just think some responses were "internet aggressive".

As for the Commercial brewery comments. Well - they are not home brewers with home brew equipment in their garage with drinking buddies helping. I don't know about you guys but I get in a rhythm when brewing and friends throw me off.

Boerderij_Kabouter - perhaps the problem is not kegging in itself but HOW kegging is done by a homebrewer. So many times I here homebrewers say I can keg and be drinking beer in 3 days. and I say - yea - how does that taste!

this was my point in every thread . When done correctly they will be on par but again bulk aging is better in any arena. My beers sit in primary for a 2-4 weeks depending on the beer. Then its either kegged or goes into a brite tank if I am adding say oak or spices .Once kegged it sits at 41°-42° for two to three weeks most times while carbing. C02 is C02 whether it comes from a tank or yeast.

I think there is a real point here. I made the same recipe twice. One I forced carbed and started drinking at 2 weeks. The other I added 4 oz of brown sugar and let warm condition and carb for another 3 weeks. The warm conditioned ale was slightly more complex.

But to the original poster, I did both of these in a keg.

Warm conditioning a little bit longer is something I am going to experiment with though.

Sorry they weren't the same recipe . You added an adjunct to the beer of course its going to be slightly different.


On a side note I still bottle beer as I usually have leftover when transferring to the corny so I have had both from the same exact batch and I detected no discernable difference in taste body or texture .

 

[Bobby_M]

No offence Grinder12000, but you're basically wrong in pretty much everything you say. It seems to me you know very little about brewing. But yet, you make a lot of assumptions. Very wrong assumptions.
My question is how can I get back 45 seconds of my life it took me to read the original post?

Ok, now THAT is a little harsh.

 

[McKBrew]

IF YOU ARE READING THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME - IT'S AN EDITORIAL - NOT A "FACT" piece. I have already been whipped and beaten!

All kegging is not inferior and it is not what I an inferring. Force carbing FOR HOME BREWERS - I personally feel is inferior.

Define force carbing. There is a lot of confusion on the term. Are you talking about setting high pressure and shaking the crap out of it to get it ready faster, or the set it and forget it method?


First I want to say I am NOT trying to diss keggers in anyway. There are many good reason to keg beer but it always seems I hear people passively putting down brewers that bottle their beer because kegging is SO EASY!!

Who does this? Most brewers I know, would be happy to get a homebrew poured out of a bottle, or out of a tap. Beer is beer, and I'll try it anyway it comes.

Yea - it IS easy, but at what cost.

Well, you have to buy some sort of kegerator, taps, CO2 tank etc, so it is a bit more spendy than bottling.

So a while back I made some comments about how I have seen very very few, GOOD, all grain (AG) brewers. I was not saying there were not ANY good AGers but it seemed to me that when I tasted a very good homebrew - it was normally from a mini masher (note - I mini mash).

If you were given three beers on AG, one extract, and one mini-mash brewed by equally skilled brewers, I'd be willing to bet you couldn't tell the difference between them.

My thought process at the time was that it seemed the goal of most brewers were to go AG and to do it as fast as they can because you somehow get anointed as a better brewer BECAUSE you brew ALL GRAIN. If you brew AG you must know what you are doing which is not really true. SO - my feeling was most people did not know how to brew all grain.

AG does not necessarily make you a better brewer. I've brewed some crappy AG recipes. However, most people who go AG usually have some experience as extract brewers and at least get the technique down before switching.

I was wrong.

Now I have another through process.

Flashback to last summer - A friend of mine and I attend a local homebrew fest. We come away thinking - WOW, I can brew so much better then 90% of those guys and they were mostly All Grain people. Their beers all lacked . . something that we could not put our fingers on . . .a certain . . . complexity.

It almost seems like you are a bit cocky. Were your beers there? Did you get some sort of data other than your personal opinions to make you thing your beers were better. IMO the vast majority of brewers are more critical of their own beer and more likely to grade it worse than it actually is. Don't know many that walk around saying my beer is better than 90% of everything else.

Our thought at the time was lack of talent with All Grain brewers because the best beers were from mini mashers.

Subjective opinion, or did some sort of competition/show results back that up! I might be inclined to judge a beer made by the method I use as better, even though it's really not.

BUT WAIT! Perhaps it was NOT the fact that they were brewing AG. It's the kegging!!!

Because AG brewers "normally" make 10 gallon batches they keg. While many mini mashers bottle their 5 gallons.

WTF? AG brewers normally make 10G batches. Willing to bet many AG brewers do NOT make 10G batches.

Flash forward to The Great Taste of the Midwest. What was the hottest beers with the longest lines? The Cask ale's . People were tripping over themselves saying how GREAT naturally carbonated ale is.

So here is my thought. Kegging, where you force carbonate, while fast and easy takes away that fantastic flavor that you get bottling. Bottling is basically like a cask ale, naturally carbonated. Bottling, which some say is a pain in the butt just makes a better tasting beer.

Umm, you can naturally carbonate in a keg.

So if you want the best tasting portable beer - you should bottle, if you want convenience and speed, go with kegging. In this respect - more work = better tasting beer.

And just to let you know where I am at. I am an AG brewer. I started with bottling, kegged, and now that I've sold off my kegging equipment I'll be bottling again.

I've made some crappy extract beers, my last few AG beers, before I took a brewing hiatus were crap. I rushed and screwed things up. Two of my most memorable and best tasting beers of all time were extract beers.

You have way too many opinions, which is fine because you clarified yourself, but got a bit touchy when called out, before you went back and edited your OP. Looking at the tone of the bulk of your post, no offense, but you asked for it.

 

[McKBrew]

I think conditioning most beer for 3-4 months might be overkill.

Concur. Yuri Has a big thread on this. Additionally many microbreweries are putting good, high OG beers on the market in less time than some of us give our pale ales.

 

[Grinder12000]

springer - no no - not directed at you - the only thing I have against you are those grandma underpants but we have gone there before LOL

McKBrew - yea - I AM cocky, I admit it - I've been asked to start a brew pub and turned it down, had the funding but I know my limits and I don't want to make brewing a job - PLUS - I'm not AG so it would be silly to open a brewpub of ANY size. There are other reason for being cocky but that would just add to my cocky bragging ways so . . . . I do agree with your comments to my comments for the most part.

I think conditioning most beer for 3-4 months might be overkill.

+1 - I have over conditioned brews a number of times. It all depends on the brew.

 

[spiny_norman]

Concur. Yuri Has a big thread on this. Additionally many microbreweries are putting good, high OG beers on the market in less time than some of us give our pale ales.

I hate to change topic, but what's the general consensus on how much time to condition a double IPA at around 8% (for example)?

 

[springer]

springer - no no - not directed at you - the only thing I have against you are those grandma underpants but we have gone there before LOL

crying out loud man for the last time there shorts not underwear.... She is commando..

 

[rwinzing]

It seems to me you are making an argument for the sides you "happen" to do.

AG brewers are not as good as mini mash brewers then you state you mini mash.....
You also talk down to kegging and claim bottling is better (of course YOU bottle)

Seems to me yo are trying to talk up the process YOU choose to follow

What I don't understand why it is all or nothing......

I keg many of my brews but will bottle some as well. I also brew AG but do many partial mash as well. I develop my own reciepes AND use kits.

The one thing I have noticed about brewers is we love to draw line in the sands and defend our choice. But like politics it's our choice and there is no right or wrong. I love having a great brew on tap and is my perfered method. But it is great having bottles around as well.

 

[springer]

I hate to change topic, but what's the general consensus on how much time to condition a double IPA at around 8% (for example)?

in a bottle or keg.... And I ask in the future that you use IIPA ......
















J/k there was heated discussion on Double or II when addressing a a strong IPA

 

[ntempleton]

IF YOU ARE READING THIS FOR THE FIRST TIME - IT'S AN EDITORIAL - NOT A "FACT" piece. I have already been whipped and beaten!

All kegging is not inferior and it is not what I an inferring. Force carbing FOR HOME BREWERS - I personally feel is inferior.

I assume (oops, now I'm doing it too!) all of you are familiar with this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correlation_does_not_imply_causation

CO2, proper aging, and the creation of decent homebrew:

All scientific data that I've read suggest the myth of "small" and "large" bubbles or that natual verses forced carbonation are just that, myth. Bubble size is a simple function of the viscosity of the liquid that has been carbonated. Carbonation saturation also, is a simply function of the liquid that is being carbonated. How a liquid is carbonated has no specific barring on the liquid. The additional aging provided by natural carbonation does allow for slight changes, but as many homebrewers do not filter their beer, many of these changes are going to happen as a function of the yeast still in suspension. The packaging, and method of carbonation have very little, if any affect over these changes.

I think that that observations that Grinder12000 speaks far more to improper fermentation and temperature control technique. If the Brewer is pitching proper amounts of yeast, is controlling fermentation temperatures, and packaging correctly, I think many of the differences noted are no longer apparent.

Speaking to yeast. Improper pitching amounts will cause the yeast to do things other than fermentation. Many of these things produce flavors undesirable in the finished beer. Sometimes, these flavors are desirable; many ale's should have esters, many Belgian styles completely abuse the yeast, but these are exceptions.

Temperature management is also very important. 2 or 3 degrees off in either direction is enough to cause a significantly different flavor profiles. Swings in temperature are even worse. As many homebrewers ferment in ambient temperature, the lack of temperature control will also cause many of the problems that Grinder12000 noticed. If warm aging, and natural carbonation produced significantly better beer, we wouldn't see Breweries all over the world making substantial investments in cold temperature control equipment.

Rather than focus on details concerning batch size, or packaging, focus on the details of how you brew your beer, and how to produce better beer. Unfortunately, these are harder details to focus on.

 

[WIP]

I read a bit of this, and I stopped. It is all too negative. I hate negativity, he is trying to play devils advocate. I too enjoy playing that game, so here are my thoughts.

If you force carb, all you are doing is adding carbonation. If you prime, some of the inactive yeasties wake up and re suspend (I think). These little guys help to "clean up" since they are awake. Am I wrong? I would like to cask condition, I need to look into this.

 

[Denny]

So here is my thought. Kegging, where you force carbonate, while fast and easy takes away that fantastic flavor that you get bottling. Bottling is basically like a cask ale, naturally carbonated. Bottling, which some say is a pain in the butt just makes a better tasting beer.

If there's a difference, it's becasue you're doing something wrong with one or the other.

 

[Denny]

If you force carb, all you are doing is adding carbonation. If you prime, some of the inactive yeasties wake up and re suspend (I think). These little guys help to "clean up" since they are awake. Am I wrong? I would like to cask condition, I need to look into this.

There is so little fermentation that takes place when you proime that I have never found that to be true. I once did an experiment using different primings (corn sugar, cane sugar, brown sugar, honey and a couple others I don't recall) and force carbing. After letting all the beers sit for 2 months, no one could tell a difference between them and no one preferred one over another.

 

[IrregularPulse]

My beer honestly got better at kegging. It got rid of a common off flavor all my beers had while bottling that I have also tasted in every bottle of homebrew I've received from members on here for swaps. All these were bottle conditioned.
I still stand by my claim that bottling sugar causes a "homebrew" taste and have yet to taste a bottle conditioned homebrew without that flavor.

 

[Grinder12000]

Denny - that is the key right there. And I hate to say MANY so how about SOME people will force carb and drink 2 days later because the people I know don't have 10 kegs laying around. They have maybe 2 or 3 and can not wait more then a week to start drinking their carbed up green beer which to me is that "homebrew flavor" people talk about.

I have 5 styles aging just because I can not drink as fast as I can brew so aging is a natural process.

bottling sugar causes a "homebrew" taste

OK - I'll say it - that is 100% wrong and a myth that won't die. But . . . . if you believe that it ain't going away and I respect your thinking that . . but will kindly disagree. Just like I taste very few good AG batches you have not tasted many good bottle conditioned homebrews.

On a side note - swaps - I keep getting exploding bottles on swaps - no more for me! While exploding bottles are fun I would not want to be around one when it happens. WOW!!!

 

[WIP]

My beer honestly got better at kegging. It got rid of a common off flavor all my beers had while bottling that I have also tasted in every bottle of homebrew I've received from members on here for swaps. All these were bottle conditioned.
I still stand by my claim that bottling sugar causes a "homebrew" taste and have yet to taste a bottle conditioned homebrew without that flavor.

I must love the "homebrew flavor" as I prefer my bottle conditioned beers over store bought beers.

I am wondering if you get the same flavor from store bought bottle conditioned beer? Fat tire, bridgeport, etc.

 

[IrregularPulse]

I'd love to try some. Not saying it's not possible, just not what I've seen experienced. I'd love to taste some that someone says doesn't have the flavor to see if I can taste it. Maybe at Dark Lord days I can meet up with some fellow HBT'ers and test this out.

 

[WIP]

I'd love to try some. Not saying it's not possible, just not what I've seen experienced. I'd love to taste some that someone says doesn't have the flavor to see if I can taste it. Maybe at Dark Lord days I can meet up with some fellow HBT'ers and test this out.

I am new to homebrewing, but I would love to do a swap with you. I will PM you.

 

[McKBrew]

I am new to homebrewing, but I would love to do a swap with you. I will PM you.

And we'll have to sway some brews too, once I get some back in production.

 

[WIP]

Definately. Hell, we could meet up sometime.

 

[McKBrew]

Back to the OP. It's one thing to start a thread on something like this, totally different to keep trying to carry the debate on in your posts on other threads.

How many threads are you going to post this in today? You should just put it in your signature, it'd be less work.

 

[samc]

I prefer kegged beer hands down over bottle conditioned. When done with my kegged batch if I have a few bottles left over I generally find that I don't enjoy them as much as the kegged brew. Could just be my bottling technique but I don't find any merit in OP's post and would suggest he taste some beer from someone who kegs and bottles from the same batch before pronouncing the end of kegging as we know it.

 

[remilard]

I do not think competitions are a fair judge of beer but that is a different thread

Of course you don't. It seems that all of your opinions about everything support the notion that your beer is just super.

Wouldn't want to let any pesky blind judging foul that up.

 

[Grinder12000]

McKBrew - what are you talking about ???? I think I mentioned it ONCE BEFORE this thread started - are you stalking me?

remilard - I have enough blind testing so know what is good and what is bad.

So - since the bullies have taken over this thread with the purpose to somehow put me in my place.

Have fun.

BTW - remilard - why not pay for the privileged for bashing me by becoming a Premium Supporter instead of taking the free ride.

Sorry. I'm outta here.