A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[ScrewyBrewer]

If I wanted to try to "fudge" it with bru'n water, what would be the best way to go about this? It would be easiest if I could do something to the water profile so that I don't have to increase the color of each grain by some arbitrary amount, but even changing my setting from 100% RO to DI only gets me about 0.04 closer to what I'm actually measuring. As a side note, I'm measuring mash pH at room temp with an Omega pH meter that I calibrate while I'm waiting for my sample to cool and which claims an accuracy of +/- 0.01.

I like having the ability to change DI pH values in my brewing water software. I also enjoy doing my own DI pH mash testing; for the grains used in my recipe. As A.J. has kindly pointed out there are two shortcomings with this approach. First, dark colored grains do not always have a higher acid content than light colored grains, most of them do but there are exceptions. Second, attention should also be paid to solving for the buffering properties of the malt too when doing a DI pH test.

I continue to wrestle with the calculus needed to arrive at the first coefficient a1*(pH-DIph) . For now I will have to be satisfied with plugging in the DI pH value, without including the grain buffering component in the equation. That way I will at least be able to catch wide variances, between the software's default grain DI ph values and those that I test and measure myself.

The process I use calls for 40g of finely crushed malt, mixed in with 100ml of RO water and then heated to 122F. A sample is later pulled and cooled down to 68F after 20 minutes of mashing. The pH value of the sample is then entered into the software as the actual DI pH value of the grain. Lacking the skills to arrive at a more precise value at the moment I am continuing to learn a great deal about this process with every post that I read. Thank you for sharing your expert knowledge here everyone.

 

[WhoDatDad78]

I wouldn't use a Dusseldorf profile for a Hefe. It's a bit more mineralized than I would think would work well. The boiled Munich profile should work better and it's representative of much of Southern Bavaria. That's where a lot of Hefe's are brewed.

Thanks mabrungard, that makes complete sense.
so if I go that route, I'm looking at about 55% dilution with RO to get my concentrations to where the profile is reasonably close. I'm not going completely that direction, just want to be in the ballpark.

 

[Onerow]

Going blind and losing sleep reading this thread from the beggining. After page 35, decided I had a handle on it and brewed a 3 gal batch of Yoopers Pale Ale.
Maris Otter 43.6%
Vienna 27.1%
Munich 10L 18.1%
Crystal 20 4.6%
Crystal 60 4.6%
Acid malt 2%
5 gal DI water total
- except screwed up and added the salts to 4 gals and didn't catch it till starting to sparge.
New Milwaukee M102 pH meter calibrated and my first time ever measuring mash pH.
readng: 5.28pH@RT :30 5.22pH@RT end of mash.
Sooo, I added per the original post, 5g Cacl, + 3.6g Gypsum, except I added it to 4 gal instead of the intended 5gal. Plus,
now I have jumped to the end of this thread and find that the baseline recommended is now 1/2 the original salts...Sigh...
Any opinions on how screwed up this Pale Ale will be?

BTW, my first attempt at water and pH control and am very pleased to have found AJ's Primer to get me on the way.

 

[juggabrew]

If I used 100% distilled water, do I need to even mess with the sparge acidification?(BruNwater) Im assuming the alkalinity is at 0 so no adjustments would need to be made to lower my sparge PH to 5.5

 

[ajdelange]

I continue to wrestle with the calculus needed to arrive at the first coefficient a1*(pH-DIph) . For now I will have to be satisfied with plugging in the DI pH value, without including the grain buffering component in the equation.

I can't believe we are discussing DI pH and buffering in the Primer thread but as we are I'll point out that one must have a value for the grain buffering coefficient (at least the linear one). In another thread (https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?p=7841949#post7841949 No. 57) I discuss how incorrect DI pH causes larger errors than incorrect buffering so I'd suggest continuing to measure DI pH whenever you can and just use -40 mEq/kg•pH for a.

The process I use calls for 40g of finely crushed malt, mixed in with 100ml of RO water and then heated to 122F. A sample is later pulled and cooled down to 68F after 20 minutes of mashing. The pH value of the sample is then entered into the software as the actual DI pH value of the grain. Lacking the skills to arrive at a more precise value at the moment I am continuing to learn a great deal about this process with every post that I read. Thank you for sharing your expert knowledge here everyone.

Having done what you describe here you simply repeat the process but this time you add a wee bit of acid to the warm water, wait 20 minutes and measure the pH. Since we expect that it will take about 40 mEq of acid to lower the pH of a kg of malt by 1 we'd expect it to take 40/25/10 = 0.16 mEq to lower the pH of 40 grams (1/25th kg) by 1/10 of a point. The challenge here isn't the calculations. It getting 0.16 mEq of acid to add. Obviously the best way to do this is to buy 1 N (1 normal) hydrochloric or sulfuric acid from Hach (or some other supplier) and measure out 0.16 mL. That in itself may be a challenge but an insulin syringe should do the job.

If you add 1 cc of 88% lactic acid to 100 mL of DI or RO water you will have a solution that is pretty close to 0.1 N so you would use 1.6 mL of that in order to get 0.16 mEq.

Add that acid to the mash water, wait, and measure pH. Then

a = .16/(pH_shift/25) = 16*25/pH_shift = 4/(pH_shift)

If the malt is typical the pH shift will be about -0.1 and a about -40.

 

[ajdelange]

- except screwed up and added the salts to 4 gals and didn't catch it till starting to sparge.

The beer will obviously be more minerally than you might like but other than that will probably be OK.

New Milwaukee M102 pH meter calibrated and my first time ever measuring mash pH.
readng: 5.28pH@RT :30 5.22pH@RT end of mash.

With that much colored malt you do not need quite so much acidulated malt as you have seen. Next time try 1% or even none.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

If you add 1 cc of 88% lactic acid to 100 mL of DI or RO water you will have a solution that is pretty close to 0.1 N so you would use 1.6 mL of that in order to get 0.16 mEq.

Add that acid to the mash water, wait, and measure pH. Then

a = 4/(pH_shift)

If the malt is typical the pH shift will be about -0.1 and a about -40.

A.J. Thank you once again for having the patience to explain this in greater detail. After reading your reply this morning I have come away with a much clearer understanding of, what I call, the elusive first coefficient.

Insulin syringes are legal for sale over the counter here and I plan to pick some up. I would imagine that adding 1 cc of acid, using a syringe, is more accurate than adding 1 mL acid using a baby medicine dropper.

I will prepare the acid solution, made from 1 cc of 88% lactic acid, mixed in 100 mL of RO water, as you suggested. Each mL of the acid solution will then contribute 0.10 mEq of acid when added to the test mash. I have spent a least 4 or 5 hours unpacking all of the information that you have provided today. Just to be sure, I understand the process to go like this.

Take the first DI pH mash sample @ 20 minutes and record it as, lets say 5.70.

Add 1.6 mL of acid solution, take a second DIpH reading 20 minutes later and record it.

Subtract the second reading from the first reading and record it as pH_shift.

Did you reduce the 40 mEq to 4, in order to use it as a = 4/(pH_shift) ?


Regarding "If the malt is typical the pH shift will be about -0.1 and a about -40"

What if the pH shift is different, say a is -38? Would that indicate that I should restart my testing using -38 mEq/kg•pH for a instead of using -40 mEq/kg•pH for a?

 

[ajdelange]

a is the mEq required to effect a pH change of 1 unit per kg of malt. Forty grams is 1/25 of a kg. So if you get a pH shift of dpH on 40 g mash with 0.16 mEq of acid you would need 25 times that much for a kg. 25*.16/dPH = 4/dpH. If the pH shift is 0.1 then a = 40. if it is 0.05 then a = 80 etc..

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

Thank you again A.J., I seem to have it. I had confused the 40 g of malt used in the test mash, with the 40 mEq of acid needed to lower 1 kg of malt by 1.0 pH unit. The two are completely separate. I now see how you reduced .16*25/pH_shift to simply 4/pH_shift.

I picked up a 1mL and a 5mL plastic syringe at a local drug store. When stored in an airtight container, how long do you think the 1 N acid mixture will keep once I make it?

 

[ajdelange]

All I can say on that is that I found a bottle of 88% lactic acid that I bought years ago and it had turned dark so it doesn't last for ever. I really have no feel for what reasonable retention time might be but I'd think at least a year.

 

[hgearle]

Double means to double the baseline amounts. That was written in the days when people fancied that they wanted insane amounts of minerals in their beers (and some still do). I consider a tsp of CaCl2 per 5 gal a lot and 1 tsp each of CaCl2 and CaSO4 way to much but in those days that's what people used. I advise half that much so the baseline would be half a tsp of each or half a tsp of CaCl2 alone if you don't like sulfate.

I have read this entire thread and it has helped me in making much better beers. I was putting way too much salt additions into my Chicago water and my beers got worse and worse. Since I have gone to using RO water and adding (much) less than a tsp of CaSo4 and CaCl2 per 5 gallons of brewing liquor, my beers have improved significantly.

I would like to thank ajdelange, dayooper, and martin brungard for their excellent coaching on how to make better beer through using better brewing water. Your continuous instruction throughout this (and other) threads are a HUGE contribution to the brewing community. THANKS!

 

[WhoDatDad78]

Hefeweizen: Baseline

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated. Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Light Ale: For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride

IPA: For very minerally beers (Export, Burton ale): Double the calcium chloride and the gypsum.

So let me see if I'm reading this right, for a pale ale, I would

A) add 2 tsp of CaCl, and 1 tsp of gypsum, and 2% sauermalz?

Or

B) 1 tsp CaCl, 1 tsp gypsum, and 2% sauermalz?

 

[ajdelange]

So let me see if I'm reading this right, for a pale ale, I would

A) add 2 tsp of CaCl, and 1 tsp of gypsum, and 2% sauermalz?

Or

B) 1 tsp CaCl, 1 tsp gypsum, and 2% sauermalz?

The current thinking is B (per 5 gal treated).

 

[brewprint]

Is anyone converting these values to grams instead of tsp?

I bought the LD Carlson version of the two chemicals (CC and Gypsum) and one of them is little balls instead of straight powder.

 

[brewprint]

I believe that I found the answer to my own question. 3.4 grams per teaspoon.

http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3...h-ph/using-salts-for-brewing-water-adjustment

 

[ajdelange]

Usually we assume a tsp is 5 grams based on the fact that a tsp is now officially 5 mL. These salts are denser than water but they don't get packed very tightly if just filled into a tsp. And, of course, it depends on the water of hydration, whether the salt is powder or prills etc. But we are not trying to be very precise here as it isn't really necessary at the Primer level. If you have a scale, however, weight out the salts each time. If nothing else that will give you repeatability.

 

[brewprint]

Usually we assume a tsp is 5 grams based on the fact that a tsp is now officially 5 mL. These salts are denser that water but they don't get packed very tightly if just filled into a tsp. And, of course, it depends on the water of hydration, whether the salt is powder or prills etc. But we are not trying to be very precise here as it isn't really necessary at the Primer level. If you have a scale, however, weight out the salts each time. If nothing else that will give you repeatability.

Got it.

So basically, if I'm understanding this correctly:

Light blonde ales: 5 grams CC/5 gallons

Typical IPA: 5 grams CC & 5 grams gypsum/5 gallons

Light IPA (light color OG 1.04): 5 grams CC & 5 grams gypsum/5 gallons

Does this seem correct?

 

[mona]

So I have a recipe in BeerMmith. It is a pale ale. I am using RO water. It is for a 10.5 gallon batch. calls for just under 15 gals of water. I put 3tsp of calcium chloride, 3 tsp of gypsum and 2% Acid malt in the software. According to BeerSmith with the ingredients to include the chemicals it says my Est Mash PH is 5.62
Any suggestions on how to bring RO water down to around the 5.2 level?

Thanks all.

 

[ajdelange]

1 tsp per gal was the original recommendation as at the time the Primer was written people wanted (or thought they wanted) huge mineral content. They have since (perhaps because of the high levels originally proposed) that they prefer lower mineral content and so we have dropped the recommendation to half of what is in the original IOW 1/2 tsp of each salt in 5 gal.

Don't put too much reliance on spreadsheets. Make a test mash and check its pH. If the result is too high add more Sauermalz.

 

[brewprint]

So I have a recipe in BeerMmith. It is a pale ale. I am using RO water. It is for a 10.5 gallon batch. calls for just under 15 gals of water. I put 3tsp of calcium chloride, 3 tsp of gypsum and 2% Acid malt in the software. According to BeerSmith with the ingredients to include the chemicals it says my Est Mash PH is 5.62
Any suggestions on how to bring RO water down to around the 5.2 level?

Thanks all.

I get similar results putting info in Beersmith....especially compared to the EZ calculator.

 

[WhoDatDad78]

The current thinking is B (per 5 gal treated).

Thanks for clearing that up. Here is the dilemma I keep running into. I fairly new to all grain, and my water supply here in DFW fluctuates pretty regularly with the exception of the PH (seems to be pretty regularly in the 8.1 range). The ions in my water authority's report don't balance out, so I feel like that's unreliable. I've done the ward labs thing, but that's just not something I want to do every few weeks. I do have a micro-filtration system set up with sediment, carbon block, and lead/cyst filters. Should I brew with 1:1 and follow the primer, or all purified water? I did buy a PH meter, so there's that...

 

[mona]

1 tsp per gal was the original recommendation as at the time the Primer was written people wanted (or thought they wanted) huge mineral content. They have since (perhaps because of the high levels originally proposed) that they prefer lower mineral content and so we have dropped the recommendation to half of what is in the original IOW 1/2 tsp of each salt in 5 gal.

Don't put too much reliance on spreadsheets. Make a test mash and check its pH. If the result is too high add more Sauermalz.

Thank you for everything you have done. So I will try 1.5 tsp of each and see how it goes. I do not have a way to check the PH so I am just trying to get close. So far the primer as originally stated worked well. This is a recipe i have made many times so now just trying to hone in the water part of brewing.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

This is exactly what I have been looking for, better brewing water made easy!

 

[cheesebach]

Just wanted to provide an update here regarding some questions I posted back in December. At the time, I was struggling with consistently coming in around 0.15-0.20 lower mash pH (room temp) than was predicted by the bru'n water tool. This was especially troublesome to be, since this happened using all types of different grain bills and base malts. It seemed like my only options were to just fudge the numbers or apply a 0.15 offset in my head to the number that bru'n water was showing.

After a couple more brews and seeing that the offset always seemed to hover around 0.15 actual vs. expected, I decided to take another look at my pH buffer solutions I was using for calibration. I'd been using some pH buffer solutions I bought from Amazon (manufacturer is Atlas Scientific). When I was at the LHBS this weekend, I picked up a new set of solutions from a different manufacturer and decided to check them against one another. What I found was that the new buffers tested 0.17 lower for the 7.0 solutions and 0.11 lower for the 4.0 solutions. Taking the average of these, that is almost exactly the difference I was seeing in my actual vs. measured result. Needless to say, I won't be buying anything from Atlas Scientific again. How hard could it really be to make a pH buffer solution within +/- 0.05 of what it claims to be?

That being said, does anyone know of a reliable and affordable option for buffer solutions that they'd recommend? I'm not doubting that the ones I bought from my LHBS aren't reasonably accurate, but given the huge different from the 2 manufacturers, I'm not sure how accurate I can realistically expect either of them to be.

 

[ajdelange]

I'd been using some pH buffer solutions I bought from Amazon (manufacturer is Atlas Scientific). When I was at the LHBS this weekend, I picked up a new set of solutions from a different manufacturer and decided to check them against one another. What I found was that the new buffers tested 0.17 lower for the 7.0 solutions and 0.11 lower for the 4.0 solutions.

This is not possible (or at least very improbable). Whenever you see pH readings that don't make sense, suspect your pH meter or technique.

That being said, does anyone know of a reliable and affordable option for buffer solutions that they'd recommend?

Get some buffer powder pillows from Hach. Mix them with distilled water and proceed to the pH meter stability test in the sticky on pH meter calibration. Those buffers are a known quantity (many if not most of the people here use them) and will make it easy to detect any problems in your meter or technique.

This is probably a good place to point out that any measurement you make on anything is a comparison between the response of your measuring device to the thing you are trying to measure and its response to a standard (standard weight, standard temperature, standard voltage, standard pH....). If the standard is off then every measurement made with an instrument calibrated to it will also be off.

 

[cheesebach]

This is not possible (or at least very improbable). Whenever you see pH readings that don't make sense, suspect your pH meter or technique.

Can you explain what you mean by this comment? You don't believe that it is possible that there is a ~0.14 difference in the pH of 2 different buffer solutions for the same pH from different manufacturers? I wouldn't have thought so, but that is certainly the case.

It seems less likely than the alternative explanation that they are actually the same pH but that my meter measures them differently. My meter was rock-solid on both measurements when it locked in and only fluctuated up and down by 0.01. If this is indeed what you are suggesting - is there something that could cause a pH meter to measure that the pH of 2 solutions, which are actually nearly identical in pH, to be so far apart? I wouldn't think that relative measurements of buffer solutions would be a difficult task for a $100 meter.

Method-wise, I'm not sure what could possibly go wrong here. The samples were at the same temperature, tested in glass containers that had been rinsed well with DI water, same volume used for each sample, and tested back-to-back (rinsing well with DI water in between).

It seems I'm not the only one who's noticed that these Atlas buffer solutions are off either:

https://www.amazon.com/Calibration-Solution-Test-Kit-4-0/dp/B007X5KAV4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1486412379&sr=8-1&keywords=pH+buffer+atlas

This is not possible (or at least very improbable).
Get some buffer powder pillows from Hach. Mix them with distilled water and proceed to the pH meter stability test in the sticky on pH meter calibration. Those buffers are a known quantity (many if not most of the people here use them) and will make it easy to detect any problems in your meter or technique.
.

Thanks for the suggestion - I'll take a look at these. It would be nice to have something like this on hand as a sanity check if I start to doubt the accuracy of any of the cheaper solutions that I buy online or from the LHBS in the future.

 

[ajdelange]

Can you explain what you mean by this comment? You don't believe that it is possible that there is a ~0.14 difference in the pH of 2 different buffer solutions for the same pH from different manufacturers?

No, I don't or at least I think it very unlikely. I did change from impossible to very unlikely because with the cheap stuff that comes in from China it is indeed possible though one would think if this particular brand of buffer was so far off someone would have flagged it (which is of course what you are doing if your hypothesis is correct).

I wouldn't have thought so, but that is certainly the case.

Well it isn't certainly the case yet but what we hope to do is either determine that it is certain or that something else (the meter) is involved.

It seems less likely than the alternative explanation that they are actually the same pH but that my meter measures them differently.

Given what I knew at the time I posted it is actually much more likely that the meter was involved. Lot's and lot's of people who post here have a $15 Chinese pH meter and wonder why they get fishy readings because they know they followed the calibration procedure precisely when they got the thing 6 mos. ago.

My meter was rock-solid on both measurements when it locked in and only fluctuated up and down by 0.01. If this is indeed what you are suggesting - is there something that could cause a pH meter to measure that the pH of 2 solutions, which are actually nearly identical in pH, to be so far apart? I wouldn't think that relative measurements of buffer solutions would be a difficult task for a $100 meter.

Many meters in that price range and below are unstable meaning that they don't hold a calibration for more than a few minutes. If you calibrate your meter and then read the 4 buffer every couple of minutes and that series of readings is stable over the period of time it takes to make all the measurements then the comparison (difference) measurements are reasonable even if the calibrating buffers are off. It stability we need.

Method-wise, I'm not sure what could possibly go wrong here. The samples were at the same temperature, tested in glass containers that had been rinsed well with DI water, same volume used for each sample, and tested back-to-back (rinsing well with DI water in between).

All sounds good but you hadn't mentioned that in the previous post. Bad technique is responsible for lots of bad pH readings. I recently posted in another thread that a new user of a pH meter will find that his pH readings become mysteriously better (more consistent) as he gains experience with it.

QUOTE=cheesebach;7871124]It seems I'm not the only one who's noticed that these Atlas buffer solutions are off either:[/QUOTE]

They could be. Let's find out.




QUOTE=cheesebach;7871124]Thanks for the suggestion - I'll take a look at these. It would be nice to have something like this on hand as a sanity check if I start to doubt the accuracy of any of the cheaper solutions that I buy online or from the LHBS in the future.[/QUOTE]

Compare the Atlas buffers against the Hach buffers using a meter that has passed the stability test and if you find a difference then shout it from the rooftops.

 

[cheesebach]

Compare the Atlas buffers against the Hach buffers using a meter that has passed the stability test and if you find a difference then shout it from the rooftops.

Thanks for clear explanations. I definitely plan to do this, although I am nearly positive that there is a difference. If this were a stability issue, I don't think it would be possible to get the same results on both consistently, which I did by:

1) Test Atlas 7.0 buffer -> wait for stabilization, measure 7.00 (makes sense, since this was the buffer I calibrated to)
2) Test other 7.0 buffer -> measure 6.83
3) Re-test Atlas 7.0 buffer -> measure 7.01
4) Re-test other 7.0 buffer -> measure 6.83

In the above, there is maybe a minute at most between each measurement. So my issue/question now is how to determine which solutions are correct? I hope that the Hach buffer packets will closely agree with at least one of the calibration solutions to help me get some confidence in figuring out which ones I can trust.

 

[cheesebach]

ajdelange,

Do you happen to know how long the Hach powder pillows are good for before they expire? And what the shelf life of the solutions are once mixed? I'm about to order from their website, but I'm trying to decide what quantity to go with, since the shipping costs will be a large portion of the bill.

 

[ajdelange]

I know what it says on the box but I'm thinking to myself that these powders are sealed in a capsule protected from air, oxygen, moisture.... And I am, therefore, guessing that the expiration put on the package is probably pretty conservative. To verify this one should, of course, buy some fresh and check against some that have been kept well past their 'best by' dates but I haven't done that. Do I use them beyond expiration for brewing? You bet. Do I use them beyond the expiration date for lab work that I'm going to publish? No.