I don't process mash water separately from sparge water - there is often no need to do this especially when you have effectively removed most of the alkalinity (by dilution with RO). So just draw the entire volume of water needed for both mash and sparge, add 1 tsp CaCl peer 5 gallons and proceed.
A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer
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zodiak3000
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ok, just to clarify is it 1 tsp for the finished product of 5 gallon batch or 1 tsp per 5 gallons of water? for a 5 gallon batch i usually start with around 9 gallons of water, which would equal almost 2 tsp if this is the case. im assuming what your saying is i can just add 1 tsp to the HLT no matter how much water for a 5 gallon batch, correct?
No, it's 1 tsp for each 5 gallons of water treated. But bear in mind that it is a starting point guideline: not a hard and fast rule. If you want to use half a tsp or a tsp and a half per 5 gallons that's OK as long as you experiment with other values in subsequent brews to find the level that does the best for you.
zodiak3000
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cool thanks
zodiak3000
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brewing tomorrow and just want to clarify my measurements of calcium chloride based off the primer. 1 tsp per 5 gallons of water. 5 grams in each tsp = 1 gram per gallon of water. i will be using roughly 9 gallons of water, so 9 grams needed? i will be using 100% RO water.
It's more like 3.4 grams per level teaspoon (for CaCl) according to Palmer.
The exact amount does not matter. As AJ says, its not a hard and fast rule anyhow. The brewer would be advised to use a consistent unit of measure in his brewery (whether its grams, teaspoons, ounces, etc.) and make note of the changes made in the amount of salts used to satisfy his taste.
I'd much prefer that people work with weight but not every brewer owns a scale though he should an inexpensive student triple beam balances are still available though electronic scales are also now available at reasonable price. I've noticed that lots of brewers like to shoot and so a reloading scale, if you have one and can convert grains to grams is a possibility.
The weight per tsp is a pretty rough measurement and depends on the form (powder or prill) and, if powder, how 'fluffy'. 5 grams/tsp is fairly close for the prill form.
The weight per tsp is a pretty rough measurement and depends on the form (powder or prill) and, if powder, how 'fluffy'. 5 grams/tsp is fairly close for the prill form.
I agree it doesn't matter to an extent. Was just trying to help since my own measurements are fairly consistent with Palmer's table, so I tend to measure by weight and typically treat 15 gallons of water with 10g CaCl. It just conjured an image of a friend inadvertently overdoing the epsom and having an overly salty batch.
I'll amplify my answer and state that I prefer grams as that is also used in the 3 popular water chemistry models. Electronic digital scales are cheap and accurate enough for my brewery. You can check your scale by measuring the weight of a nickel coin - they are 5 grams.
just a heads up to those buying RO water in bulk, my last 15 gallons from walmart were no good. wondered why my mash ph was so out of whack on my last batch, and why my starsan solution turned cloudy instantly. brought a sample of the water to work to test it, and conductivity was sky high.
Just a reminder that shirt pocked 'pen' type TDS testers are pretty inexpensive.
Ordering one tonight. Thinking about picking up a small RO system, but not sure if its really worth it vs just buying distilled by the gallon.
I have been looking around at systems and for the money and portability, I think this may be the winner.
http://www.airwaterice.com/product/1MM/RO-MIGHTY-MITE-SYSTEM-50GPD.html
http://www.airwaterice.com/product/1MM/RO-MIGHTY-MITE-SYSTEM-50GPD.html
I strongly recommend against a system using the small canister filters. They do not last very long. Look for a 3 or 4 stage system with the more standard 10-inch filter canisters. You should be able to find one of those for about the same price. As long as all the equipment is mounted to a single plate, its as portable and almost as small as the system shown above. Getting a system with a Filmtec membrane is a good idea.
I also recommend getting a system that has an auto-shutoff valve. That way you can run the RO water into an open tank or tub and use a float valve to shut off the flow when the tank is full. Having a large supply of water waiting on you is far better than you waiting on the system to supply you with RO water.
Good points. I have seen the ASOV and float available as an option. Do you have any recommendations?
FWIW the length of time the membrane lasts depends largely on the volume and the nature of the water being fed. If it is hard it should be softened. I've had a couple of those cheapie systems and used one for well over 5 years before giving it away, still fully functional, to another home brewer who, while he doesn't brew that much is still using it AFAIK. The other I used less than five years before giving it away fully functional. If you only use the thing for brewing water and only run a couple of hundred gallons through it per year it should last a good long time. They indicate that the membrane should last 3 - 5 years and that the pre filters are good for 900 gal. Now I don't know whether that means 900 gal total input or 900 gal produced as the recovery for these units is set very low so that you can get by without softening the feed water first. At this price, how can you go wrong unless the system is a real POS? It does use Filmtec membranes and delivers 1 - 2 gph so you can collect enough for a modest size brew in a few hours.
This is intended to be a quasi potable budget system and if that is what you are looking for I'd give it a shot. If you want something fancier then pressure tanks fed from atmospheric tanks with float switches can be cobbled up for sure. I have two sets of plumbing in my brewery: RO and well and it's really nice to be able to just grab one hose or the other or open one valve or the other to fill the HLT but for a simple system like this one it should suffice to hook it up to your laundry sink (or wherever), drape the output line into your HLT and walk away for a few hours.
This is intended to be a quasi potable budget system and if that is what you are looking for I'd give it a shot. If you want something fancier then pressure tanks fed from atmospheric tanks with float switches can be cobbled up for sure. I have two sets of plumbing in my brewery: RO and well and it's really nice to be able to just grab one hose or the other or open one valve or the other to fill the HLT but for a simple system like this one it should suffice to hook it up to your laundry sink (or wherever), drape the output line into your HLT and walk away for a few hours.
Hi AJ,
Great information in this thread. Here's my water profile, would it be any point for me to get an RO filter or can I basically treat it like it's already RO'd?
pH 7,57
Conductivity 10,5 mS/m
Alkalinity 0,651 mmol/l
Hardness 2,66 odH
CaCO3: 0,651 * 50 = 32,55 ppm
Calsium 18,20 mg/L
Clorid 8,03 mg/L
Magnesium 0,47 mg/L
Natrium 2,10 mg/L
Sulfate 4,81 mg/L
Is my calculation Alkalinity --> CaCO3 correct?
Thanks!
Great information in this thread. Here's my water profile, would it be any point for me to get an RO filter or can I basically treat it like it's already RO'd?
pH 7,57
Conductivity 10,5 mS/m
Alkalinity 0,651 mmol/l
Hardness 2,66 odH
CaCO3: 0,651 * 50 = 32,55 ppm
Calsium 18,20 mg/L
Clorid 8,03 mg/L
Magnesium 0,47 mg/L
Natrium 2,10 mg/L
Sulfate 4,81 mg/L
Is my calculation Alkalinity --> CaCO3 correct?
Thanks!
As it is so low in mineral content there is little need for an RO system. Yes, you calculated the alkalinity correctly.
Wow...I'm listening to the BN Brew Strong podcast on partigyle brewing recorded live at NHC and John Palmer just endorsed the use of 5-stars 5.2 stabilizer. Is this a new improved 5.2 stabilizer? Is he drunk? Have I wasted countless hours and batches following the sound advice in this thread?
Magic8Ball
Well-Known Member
Sounded like an endorsement to me:
...after a painful attempt to pass off a basic batch sparge as "partigyle brewing" (i'll rant about that elsewhere) at 35:53
Justin: ...would something like the 5.2 pH stabilizer you might put in your mash for the first runnings I wonder if it would stick around for second runnings and you might not have to worry as much
Palmer: Well you know it would help the second runnings if you added it to the second mash
Justin: OK
Palmer: ...to the reinfusion because a lot of what the 5.2 is is uh phosphates so it helps to replace the phosphates that are naturally in the malt and in the mash. Those have been rinsed out now with that first runnings, predominately rinsed out
Justin: Got it
Palmer: So now you are adding more phosphate back and it helps, does help restabilize the mash pH.
Magic8Ball
Well-Known Member
gbx said:
So you aren't too interested in his Water book then?
Why do I need to read a book when I can just relax, don't worry and dump in some 5.2 stabilizer? And if I'm brewing a "stout" I can dump in a bunch of carbonate to replicate "Dublin water" which Palmer was recently talking about during his water episode on the Beer Smith podcast.
Magic8Ball
Well-Known Member
It would be great if 5.2 stabilizer worked. I love the idea of such a simple product. Add it to the mash and Viola!, 5.2 mash. I also kinda like the idea of an entire book to explain Water Chem in all its glory. RA and ions, and all that H2O stuff. I get the strong feeling that I am going to be hearing Charlie Brown parent voices one chapter into it. "Now take Ions wahh wahh wah wa wa water...."
So what I really need is Yoppers Original Post, a ward lab's water report & thesaq's excel spreadsheet (version 9.4), wally mart RO water. Its worked so far for me.
You know GBX Ill skip the Water book too.
5.2 is mostly NaH2PO4. As such it is an acid (it has 2 protons it can yield up). Put it into DI water and that water's pH should go to about 4.8. Put it into a mash at pH 6 and it will release some protons. But it won't stabilize pH at desired mash pH because phosphate buffers don't stabilize near mash pH. If you want protons and you want to get them from phosphate compounds use phosphoric acid, H3PO4 which has 3 protons to give up. It won't stabilize pH either (for the same reason that 5.2 won't) but it will lower pH effectively without introducing appreciable flavor from the phosphate ion (because it takes less to do the job - each phosphate ion releases 1 and a fraction protons on average while 5.2 releases only the fraction) nor will it introduce any sodium.
John understands the chemistry well enough to refrain from endorsing 5.2. He also understands the broader world enough to refrain from condemning it as harshly as I do.
John understands the chemistry well enough to refrain from endorsing 5.2. He also understands the broader world enough to refrain from condemning it as harshly as I do.
I for one am very interested in the coming book from JP and Colin Kaminski. I know them both personally and both have been very helpful to me in my water chem issues, as has this forum. I'm positive my knowledge and understanding will be enhanced.
BTW, in terms of update. City water will be measuring pH in the main feeding my house today. Why? Becasue the pH of my water out of the tap is just under 5! I have to add about 60 gm of sodium bicarb to every 30 gallons of water to set my HLT values to 5.6 - 6.0. The water company says they target a pH of about 7.5, so something is clearly amiss. I will tell you that since I have set the pH of the HLT, all of the downstream values are near perfect (mash, pre-boil, post boil, post ferment). I am anxious to see what Public works comes up with.
NanoMan
BTW, in terms of update. City water will be measuring pH in the main feeding my house today. Why? Becasue the pH of my water out of the tap is just under 5! I have to add about 60 gm of sodium bicarb to every 30 gallons of water to set my HLT values to 5.6 - 6.0. The water company says they target a pH of about 7.5, so something is clearly amiss. I will tell you that since I have set the pH of the HLT, all of the downstream values are near perfect (mash, pre-boil, post boil, post ferment). I am anxious to see what Public works comes up with.
NanoMan
It certainly seems so. Sounds as if some serious acid has gotten into your feed. This isn't carbonic acid (I don't think). I hope you will post again when you get the answer (if you do).
Well this is a bit of a problem. The City took a measurement at the hose in front of the house and got 7.1. Of course, that's good news as far as that goes. But now what? The logical conclusion is my meter is at fault. But, I recalibrate every (and during) each brewing session with pH standard 4 solution, the meter registers very close to 4 before I even hit the calibration cycle, and reads 4 when calibrated. I assume the standard solution is good as I go through a lot of it and am currently using a newly purchased bottle.
Yesterday, in anticipation of the city coming out, I pulled a sample from a hose bib (5.01) and from the kitchen sink (4.80); the hose bib does not go through the house water supply but comes off right after the meter. I then tested those samples with pH paper, and even added some bicarb to one of the samples to raise the pH. In all cases the paper roughly correlated to the digital meter reading.
5.0 is a lot different than 7.1 and I'm not willing to say "Oh, well..."
I suppose I could run the more involved calibration sequence using pH 7 solution (supposedly resets meter to factory settings). Beyond that, I got nuthin'! Somewhat frustrated, I must admit.
NanoMan
Yesterday, in anticipation of the city coming out, I pulled a sample from a hose bib (5.01) and from the kitchen sink (4.80); the hose bib does not go through the house water supply but comes off right after the meter. I then tested those samples with pH paper, and even added some bicarb to one of the samples to raise the pH. In all cases the paper roughly correlated to the digital meter reading.
5.0 is a lot different than 7.1 and I'm not willing to say "Oh, well..."
I suppose I could run the more involved calibration sequence using pH 7 solution (supposedly resets meter to factory settings). Beyond that, I got nuthin'! Somewhat frustrated, I must admit.
NanoMan
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