A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[Biere_Titan]

Thanks for the reply ajdelange. I guess I'll send off to Wards.

 

[diS]

I am brewing with water from my spring mixed with RO water, so far i didn't make analyse sheet for spring water (which is pretty pricely in my country).
At the moment I am using analyse sheet from city spring which is ~6 miles away and is 20 years old, it is not accurate but it puts me in the frame when predicting pH.

Problem is that I noticed harsh flavor in my pale beers, which I suppose mostly comes from high alkalinity and maybe magnesium.

I am thinking to brew with 100% RO water so I could know exact mineral content and alkalinity.
Usually I am adding only CaCl, CaSO4 and eventually MgSO4 for IPA'a.

What is bothering me is low Na and Mg in RO water.
Magnesium can be added with MgSO4, but so o far I never added table salt or baking soda which increases sodium and I would like to avoid it.. pickling lime is not an option since I don't have it in local stores.

Question is how much is sodium really important?
I know that suggested amount is less than 100 ppm, but what if it is less than 1?

One other thing, when building from RO water alkalinity as CaCO3 is pretty low: around 10 ppm or under. Is there minimal suggested alkalinity?

 

[DustBow]

I don't know "detailed scientific" answers but I had been brewing wit 75% RO water and 25% tap water; my last couple batches have been 100% RO adding only Calcium Chloride and gypsum & I have been happy with the results. So I'm thinking sodium isn't that important, or at least that enough "other minerals" make their way into the mash from the grain.

 

[ajdelange]

Problem is that I noticed harsh flavor in my pale beers, which I suppose mostly comes from high alkalinity and maybe magnesium.

More probably high sulfate.

I am thinking to brew with 100% RO water so I could know exact mineral content and alkalinity.
Usually I am adding only CaCl, CaSO4 and eventually MgSO4 for IPA'a.

That's the philosophy behind the primer except that we don't usually add MgSO4 because the taste of Mg++ ion is reportedly not pleasant.

What is bothering me is low Na and Mg in RO water.

Don't worry about those. Mg is generally undesirable (and malt furnishes plenty for enzyme cofactor needs). Sodium is also generally considered undesirable. People NaCl for the Cl, not the sodium. You can get the Cl from CaCl2 instead and not have to worry about the sodium.

Magnesium can be added with MgSO4, but so o far I never added table salt or baking soda which increases sodium and I would like to avoid it.. pickling lime is not an option since I don't have it in local stores.

Pickling lime is Ca(OH)2 and thus contains neither sodium nor magnesium. It is also strongly alkaline and so is a poor source of calcium. It is used to raise mash pH.

Question is how much is sodium really important?
I know that suggested amount is less than 100 ppm, but what if it is less than 1?

0 sodium is fine for most beers. Where a salty taste is required for specialty beers then you can use NaCl

One other thing, when building from RO water alkalinity as CaCO3 is pretty low: around 10 ppm or under. Is there minimal suggested alkalinity?

We'd really like to have negative alkalinity and that's why acid is added to most beers. In cases where the malts being used supply more acid than necessary to set proper mash pH then some form of alkali must be used to neutralize the excess acid. That can come from the water or it can come from lime, sodium bicarbonate, sodium hydroxide etc.

 

[diS]

Thanks AJ!
Correct about pickling lime.. my mistake.
I'll give it a try with 100% RO.
Also I think raising the pH won't be a problem since it is mostly needed in dark beers with a roasted grains, and those ones I can brew with mixed tap water (which is alkaline) as small harsh taste is not that bad in those beers.. at least for me.
So you are suggesting to avoid MgSO4 too?
I assume that we could build sulfates (eg for IPA) with CaSO4, so only CaCl and CaSO4 are needed.

 

[ajdelange]

Thanks AJ!
Correct about pickling lime.. my mistake.
I'll give it a try with 100% RO.

Add some Calcium chloride and/or sulfate. I realize this is post #636 but it's worth while to read #1 again.

So you are suggesting to avoid MgSO4 too?

For nearly all beers, yes.

I assume that we could build sulfates (eg for IPA) with CaSO4, so only CaCl and CaSO4 are needed.

Yes. Check #1 again.

 

[mabrungard]

More probably high sulfate.

Was just consulting at a small brewery today. They apparently don't focus on how much sulfate they add to their beers. They just throw in gypsum to adjust mash pH. Their beers had other problems, but their ESB I tasted did have a harshness that was not typical of their other beers. They did through in 'extra' gypsum into that batch. It was probably far over 300 ppm. Don't overdose sulfate.


That's the philosophy behind the primer except that we don't usually add MgSO4 because the taste of Mg++ ion is reportedly not pleasant.

Mg is OK at low concentration in beers that need to present a more bitter character. Again, don't overdose Mg. 40 ppm is the absolute maximum and it is not needed as AJ says.


Don't worry about those. Mg is generally undesirable (and malt furnishes plenty for enzyme cofactor needs). Sodium is also generally considered undesirable. People NaCl for the Cl, not the sodium. You can get the Cl from CaCl2 instead and not have to worry about the sodium.

Na is desirable and beneficial to beer flavor, but generally only at low concentration.


0 sodium is fine for most beers. Where a salty taste is required for specialty beers then you can use NaCl

Oh come on, that's a rather extreme statement. At low concentration, table salt doesn't add a salty taste. If anything, it does tend to sweeten the beer.

See above

 

[diS]

What would you say about this water for dunkeweizen:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=QV2XXXJ

Also, would you recommend to go with 100% RO or 70% as in calculator?
Note that "source water B" is taken from analyse sheet 20 yrs old and is probably not extremely correct. I suppose my spring have larger numbers..
Source water is RO water, I get the numbers by calculating 5% (and add a little bit) from tap water since RO should reduce minerals by 95%.

I am shooting for pH 5.5 since I'll mash with double decoction which should lower the pH so it should fall into 5.3-5.5 range.

 

[ajdelange]

0 sodium is fine for most beers. Where a salty taste is required for specialty beers then you can use NaCl.

Oh come on, that's a rather extreme statement. At low concentration, table salt doesn't add a salty taste. If anything, it does tend to sweeten the beer.

I don't see anything controversial in the original statement. 0 sodium is fine for most beers. Sodium in small quantities doesn't lend any appreciable taste at all. As most of you know by now I brew with RO water most of the time. 0 sodium there. The feed water runs 7 mg/L sodium and I have never supplemented that nor seen a need to on the occasions when I brew with my well water. Nor have I ever seen a recommendation that brewing liquor should contain a minimum amount of sodium except where things like gose are being discussed. IMO sodium is a 'don't care' except when it gets to the point where it, paired with chloride or bicarbonate or sulfate, lends saltly/minerally tastes.

When NaCl is added in modest quantities it is the chloride that grants the sweetness - not the sodium hence my suggestion that calcium chloride be used as a source for chloride and its benefits. There is no reason sodium chloride cannot be used as a source for chloride as long as the total sodium is kept under control. As calcium is pretty tasteless that seems a sensible way to go as calcium confers benefits. AFAIK sodium does not.

 

[ajdelange]

What would you say about this water for dunkeweizen:

http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash-chemistry-and-brewing-water-calculator/?id=QV2XXXJ

Wheat beers are brewed with such a diversity of water supplies that I'm sure this one would work. I always recommend starting with very soft water (about half of what the Primer recommends) and working up though you certainly don't have to use that approach.

Also, would you recommend to go with 100% RO or 70% as in calculator?
Note that "source water B" is taken from analyse sheet 20 yrs old and is probably not extremely correct.

Where there is uncertainty about the water supply or where the supply is know to vary over time I suggest 100% RO as through its use with supplemental salts you will know exactly what is going into the mash tun.

 

[zach1288]

My tap water is pretty bad so I want to try using distilled water. I'm going to brew the Centennial Blonde recipe on this website, so it's pretty light.

If i'm using Beersmith it's telling me to mash in with 2.81 gallons of water and batch sparge with 5.76 gallons. So how much Calcium Chloride do I add to the mash? Also do I need to add any acidulated malt?

Thanks,
Zach

 

[ajdelange]

If you want guidance re Beersmith post your question in a Beersmith related thread (or start one). If you want guidance related to the Primer read #1 in this thread.

 

[zach1288]

If you want guidance re Beersmith post your question in a Beersmith related thread (or start one). If you want guidance related to the Primer read #1 in this thread.

I read number one and this is my question. This is not a Beersmith question.

 

[ajdelange]

If i'm using Beersmith it's telling me to mash in with 2.81 gallons of water and batch sparge with 5.76 gallons. So how much Calcium Chloride do I add to the mash?

None, it goes into the water.

Baseline: Add 1 tsp of calcium chloride dihydrate (what your LHBS sells) to each 5 gallons of water treated.

For 2.81 gallons use 2.81/5 tsp. For 5.76 gal use 5.76/5 tsp.

Also do I need to add any acidulated malt?

Add 2% sauermalz to the grist.

Those are the answers from the Primer. Are those the answers you are looking for?

 

[zach1288]

None, it goes into the water.



For 2.81 gallons use 2.81/5 tsp. For 5.76 gal use 5.76/5 tsp.






Those are the answers from the Primer. Are those the answers you are looking for?

So I add the calcium chloride to the strike water? Do I need to add it to the sparge water?

Also doesn't calcium chloride lower the PH? Why do I need to lower it further with the acidulated malt?

Thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

You are adding calcium chloride in part to supply calcium for yeast health, good runoff etc. but mostly to get some chloride into the water which makes the beer smoother, rounder and enhances mouthfeel.

Yes, the calcium does lower the pH a bit but is not nearly as effective as the acid in the sauermalz. That's why you need both.

 

[zach1288]

You are adding calcium chloride in part to supply calcium for yeast health, good runoff etc. but mostly to get some chloride into the water which makes the beer smoother, rounder and enhances mouthfeel.

Yes, the calcium does lower the pH a bit but is not nearly as effective as the acid in the sauermalz. That's why you need both.

So for my sparge water I can use straight distilled water?

Also I'm a little confused about the baseline. Let's say I wanted to make a british ale. So I add calcium chloride, gypsum and do I add the 2% acid malt from the baseline?

Thank you!

 

[ajdelange]

So I add the calcium chloride to the strike water? Do I need to add it to the sparge water?

You don't absolutely need to but it is probably a good idea as the fermenting beer benefits from the calcium and finished beer from both.

Also doesn't calcium chloride lower the PH? Why do I need to lower it further with the acidulated malt?

Yes it does but not very much relative to the amount the acid in the sauermalz does. That's why you need both.

 

[ajdelange]

So for my sparge water I can use straight distilled water?

Yes you can but you probably should add the calcium chloride.

Also I'm a little confused about the baseline. Let's say I wanted to make a british ale. So I add calcium chloride, gypsum and do I add the 2% acid malt from the baseline?

For British beers you deviate from the baseline by adding gypsum in addition to or in place of some of the calcium chloride.

A careful reading of the Primer should make it clear that it represents a starting point and that you will need to adjust relative levels of chloride and sulfate for your personal taste.

 

[zach1288]

Do I still add the acid malt to the British ale?

Thank you!

 

[DustBow]

yes

 

[steve1202]

My tap water is pretty bad so I want to try using distilled water. I'm going to brew the Centennial Blonde recipe on this website, so it's pretty light.

If i'm using Beersmith it's telling me to mash in with 2.81 gallons of water and batch sparge with 5.76 gallons. So how much Calcium Chloride do I add to the mash? Also do I need to add any acidulated malt?

Thanks,
Zach

The amount of additive you use depends on your grain bill. You want a mash ph of between 5.2 and 5.6. Darker grains are more acidic. I use something called EZ water calc. It's an excel file that let's you enter your grain bill and adjust water ratio and additive amounts until you hit your target ph. It will also tell you how your chloride to sulfate ratio will effect your final flavor (bitter, malty, or balanced). I've found it to be very accurate at predicting mash ph and my efficiency is usually in the 90's. Good luck.

 

[ajdelange]

It will also tell you how your chloride to sulfate ratio will effect your final flavor (bitter, malty, or balanced).

It won't do that because this is controlled by hop cultivar selection, grain bill choices, and hopping schedules. Sulfate has an effect on how rought/harsh/dry hops perception is and chloride enhances body, sweetness and roundness. That the ratio is a control parameter is a misconception that stubbornly refuses to go away.

I do malty beers, balanced beers and hoppy beers all with the same chloride to sulfate ratio: ∞

 

[Unibrow]

Just got my first water report - can anybody chime in on this? It seems like hard water, and I wanted to brew a light Kolsch, so not sure I have the right stuff here. ANY advice is helpful, thanks!!!


Calcium 59
Magnesium 15
Sodium 10
Chloride 24
Sulfate 24
Alkalinity (CaCO3 ppm) 163

 

[ajdelange]

As this is the Primer thread the appropriate comment here would be that it needs to be diluted with RO water to the point where it meets the requirements in #1 and then supplemented with minerals as suggested in that post (for a Kölsch half the recommended baseline CaCL2 addition would actually be better).

 

[zodiak3000]

ive been using tap water, getting some tannin issues, and suspect ph is the problem. if i use 100% RO water and add 1 tsp of calcium chloride will this be sufficient to regulate ph and eliminate any issues? basically get a better beer? or should i blend some RO water with tap water (ex. 70/30)? FYI my tap water tastes fine.

 

[afr0byte]

ive been using tap water, getting some tannin issues, and suspect ph is the problem. if i use 100% RO water and add 1 tsp of calcium chloride will this be sufficient to regulate ph and eliminate any issues? basically get a better beer? or should i blend some RO water with tap water (ex. 70/30)? FYI my tap water tastes fine.

You're more likely to have a better pH with the RO and CaCL, but you may need some alkalinity (for darker beers) or some acid (for lighter beers). Anyways, there's no way we can tell you if 70/30 would be good as we don't know what your water profile is.

 

[zodiak3000]

You're more likely to have a better pH with the RO and CaCL, but you may need some alkalinity (for darker beers) or some acid (for lighter beers). Anyways, there's no way we can tell you if 70/30 would be good as we don't know what your water profile is.

here is my water report. this is all new, not sure how to treat. all i know is im getting some tannin astringent flavors that i think are a result of high mash ph and high alkalinity.

Alkalinity as CaCO3 (ppm) 110
Calcium (ppm) 21
Magnesium (ppm) 15
pH 8.0
Radon (pCi/L) 198
Silica (ppm) 83
Sodium (ppm) 27
Total Hardness as CaCO3 (ppm) 111

 

[ajdelange]

As this is the Primer thread the relevant advice would be to dilute with RO until the alkalinity is below about 30 (i.e. 4:1) and then follow the recommendations in Post #1. The astringency could be caused by sulfate/hops so you should find out what the sulfate is. The can be done at modest expense by sending a sample off to Ward labs. You will also want to know the chloride level because doing the dilution is only one approach - the Primer approach. The Ward Labs report will tell you that too.

With respect to a source of RO water: one approach to that is to install and RO system in your brewery. By I note that your silica is quite high. This can gum up RO membranes and they may, therefore, have shorter life in your installation than in others. The supplier I got my system from expressed great concern at my silica level of 28 mg/L which is at the upper limit of the expected range. You are more than 3 times that. I have never had problems with short membrane life but at the levels you are running it might be of concern.

 

[zodiak3000]

As this is the Primer thread the relevant advice would be to dilute with RO until the alkalinity is below about 30 (i.e. 4:1) and then follow the recommendations in Post #1. The astringency could be caused by sulfate/hops so you should find out what the sulfate is. The can be done at modest expense by sending a sample off to Ward labs. You will also want to know the chloride level because doing the dilution is only one approach - the Primer approach. The Ward Labs report will tell you that too.

With respect to a source of RO water: one approach to that is to install and RO system in your brewery. By I note that your silica is quite high. This can gum up RO membranes and they may, therefore, have shorter life in your installation than in others. The supplier I got my system from expressed great concern at my silica level of 28 mg/L which is at the upper limit of the expected range. You are more than 3 times that. I have never had problems with short membrane life but at the levels you are running it might be of concern.

thanks for the advice. how and when do you add calcium chloride? just split 1 tsp between the strike and sparge water and mix it up?