A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

[jmf143]

Oui!

The man is wise who says little?

Your latin is on par with your water knowledge!

 

[ajdelange]

I was frequently warned many many years ago by perhaps the most eccentric man I have ever met of the dire consequences likely to befall those who did not learn their semi-deponents. Loquor is a semi deponent so there it is!

 

[junior]

By Ajdelange






For British beers: Add 1 tsp gypsum as well as 1 tsp calcium chloride


Can someone explain why the suggestion is to add both, gypsum and calcium chloride? What I have read is that they do the same things, lower ph and add calcium ions to benefit the enzymes in breaking down starch molecules to sugar. I am probably wrong in my assumption, the reason that is I am just beginning to read about water chemistry.

 

[ajdelange]

Can someone explain why the suggestion is to add both, gypsum and calcium chloride? What I have read is that they do the same things, lower ph and add calcium ions to benefit the enzymes in breaking down starch molecules to sugar.

Correct on the calcium but gypsum adds sulfate as well as calcium and calcium chloride adds chloride as well as calcium. These two have profoundly different effects on the quality of the beer to the point that many think one offsets the other. In fact the effects are not offsetting but chloride adds fullness (body), roundness and sweetness to the beer while sulfate adds dryness and sharpens (to the point of harshness in many cases) the perception of hops. In British beers this is sought after. In German beers it is avoided. Thus in brewing British style beers many references will suggest the addition of a lot of gypsum. It is the opinion of many that sulfate harshness does not improve British beers any more than it does continental beers (and other disagree strenuously) and so brew their ales with little or no sulfate. Because of this I always recommend starting out with low sulfate and adding it incrementally to see if you like or dislike its effects. As gypsum is so traditional in British brewing I recommended splitting the calcium contribution half and half between sulfate and chloride as a starting point.

 

[junior]

Correct on the calcium but gypsum adds sulfate as well as calcium and calcium chloride adds chloride as well as calcium. These two have profoundly different effects on the quality of the beer to the point that many think one offsets the other. In fact the effects are not offsetting but chloride adds fullness (body), roundness and sweetness to the beer while sulfate adds dryness and sharpens (to the point of harshness in many cases) the perception of hops. In British beers this is sought after. In German beers it is avoided. Thus in brewing British style beers many references will suggest the addition of a lot of gypsum. It is the opinion of many that sulfate harshness does not improve British beers any more than it does continental beers (and other disagree strenuously) and so brew their ales with little or no sulfate. Because of this I always recommend starting out with low sulfate and adding it incrementally to see if you like or dislike its effects. As gypsum is so traditional in British brewing I recommended splitting the calcium contribution half and half between sulfate and chloride as a starting point.

Ajdelange, if I understand you correctly, the calcium aids enzymes in there ability to convert starch to sugar, and the chloride and the sulfate if used are more for the taste aspects and not for the fermentation benefits. Hope these questions make sense to you, and thank's for the lesson in brewing water chemistry.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, calcium is beneficial in many ways as an enzyme cofactor, through its influence on mash pH etc and yes, sulfate and chloride can be used to exert control over flavor.

 

[junior]

Yes, calcium is beneficial in many ways as an enzyme cofactor, through its influence on mash pH etc and yes, sulfate and chloride can be used to exert control over flavor.

Ajdelange, uneducated people like me appreciate the help people like you unselfishly give, thank you very much. P.S. I didn't know what (cofactor) meant so I looked it up,, a substance that needs to be present in addition to an enzyme for a certain reaction to be catalysed. That's two things I have learned in one post. I should have paid more attention in school.

 

[chrisdb]

I too thank you again-
everything I needed was in the original post

 

[Oter]

Just out of curiousity, is the information in the first post supposed be a blanket quick fix, regardless of where you live or what your water report says? I want to do an Bitter, so should I just follow the british beers guideline?

 

[sivdrinks]

Just out of curiousity, is the information in the first post supposed be a blanket quick fix, regardless of where you live or what your water report says? I want to do an Bitter, so should I just follow the british beers guideline?

I believe it's based on RO water not tap water.

 

[Oter]

I see, thank you!

 

[ajdelange]

It's based on water with low ion content whether you are lucky enough to get it out of the tap because you live in the Pacific north west or NYC (I guess you can't really call someone who is forced to live in NYC lucky but the water is good) on unlucky enough to live where the water is unusable and must be replaced or diluted to the point where is is virtually replaced with RO or otherwise deionized water. There are in between situations where 1:1 or 2:1 dilution can get you to low ion content as defined in the sticky.

 

[TheCheatOSX]

I still can't find this on the Member's Only site. Only 2011 ones are listed. Am I missing something?

The audio from the Water Panel is available on the Members Only portion of the AHA site. Another reason to be an AHA member!

 

[ajdelange]

No, you are not missing anything. It has not, AFAIK, been posted nor do I believe it will be. The company that made the recordings makes money by selling these and I expect they will be offered for sale at some point but I don't know when or where.

 

[bullinachinashop]

ajdelange ,
I have had success with the information on the thread and have won many metals, I believe, because of the changes I'm now making.
That being said, I will be brewing a Robust Porter tomorrow and have been told by people smarter than me that the water profile here is great for brewing that style of beer.
I was hoping you might take a look at the profile and see what you think.
I filter my water to remove the chlorine and our water has no chloramines.
Any suggestions would be appreciated.
Thanks
Bull
ca 33.3
mg 9
so4 28
na 13
cl 22
hco3 99

The recipe is
11# 2 row
.75#C60
1.25# roast/toast. This will be added to sparge only.
4 oz acidulated.

 

[ajdelange]

I expect that will work out fine for you. There is always some risk with a dark beer that the dark malts may contribute more acid that you expect them to and that the pH will drop too low if you include the acid malt. OTOH there is always the risk the pH will be too high without the acid malt. For this reason I'd hold back on the acid malt, check the pH about 15 minutes after dough in (and more frequently than that if you can.) and add the acid malt if it is needed. Next time you brew this beer you will know whether you need it or not.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Without the acid malt, the mash ph calculated out to just under 5.6 which is higher than I want. With the acid, the ph drops into the low 5.4 range.
Adding the dark malts only for the sparge won't have any affect on the ph during the mash, so I left them out of the calculations.
The only thing I was thinking would be to add about 2 grams of gypsum and 4 grams of calcium chloride to bring my ratio more into balance.
Thanks for taking a look.
Bull

 

[ajdelange]

I would predict a mash pH of 5.55 but my prediction is based on experience and the calculators are based on models based on experience and in some cases experiment. The problem is that neither my predictions nor the calculators are necessarily accurate in a given situation. As I said, there is risk that without the acid malt you might go too high and without it you might go too low. The only way to resolve the uncertainty is to measure the mash pH with a meter.

When I make stout I don't use acid malt and the pH comes in right around 5.5 - 5.55. That's a wee bit higher than I like too but I don't use acid malt simply because AFAIK the reknowned brewers of that style don't and if you account for the fact that the pH at mash temp is likely to be 5.3 - 5.35 I'm comfortable with that. The bottom line is that the beer comes out fine. But that's what I get - you might get something a little different.

Chloride/sulfate ratios are not really useful. If you want sharp hops, dry hops, use sulfate. If you want to round and sweeten the beer and improve its mouthfeel use chloride. Use these to the extent you want those effects. The ratio will fall where it will fall.

 

[bullinachinashop]

Thanks AJ

 

[Willum]

For a few brews I have been diluting my water with 50% distilled water. I have been playing around with ez water, and it seems like diluting my water might not be necessary.

This is my water report:



pH
7.3
Total Dissolved Solids (TDS) Est, ppm 157
Electrical Conductivity, mmho/cm 0.26
Cations / Anions, me/ L2.2 / 2.3

Sodium, Na 21
Potassium, K 1
Calcium, Ca 16
Magnesium, Mg 5
Total Hardness, CaCO3 61
Nitrate, NO3-N 0.2 (SAFE)
Sulfate, SO4-S 3
Chloride, Cl 42
Carbonate, CO3 < 1
Bicarbonate, HCO3 56

Total Alkalinity, CaCO3 46

Total Phosphorus, P 1.06
Total Iron, Fe 0.03

As a test, I created a grist in EZ water of 16lbs of pils, 5 gallons of mash water, and 5 gallons of sparge water (1.25 qt/lb thickness). I used the soft water suggestion in this thread.

10 gallons water: 1tsp total CaCi2 and 8oz (3%) acid malt.

All tap

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Chloride / Sulfate
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) Ratio
23 5 21 55 9 6.08

50% distilled 50% tap

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Chloride Sulfate Chloride / Sulfate
(Ca ppm) (Mg ppm) (Na ppm) (Cl ppm) (SO4 ppm) Ratio
15 3 11 34 5 7.50


Can anyone smarter then me, tell me if I am wasting my money diluting my water?

 

[ajdelange]

Only you can answer that question. The guidelines in this thread are meant to get you started down the path to better beer. It's strongly implied if not explicitly stated that you must experiment to determine what level of minerals gives you the beer you like best. I can observe that most people like beers made with low mineral water backed up with some chloride. That's the basis for the Primer's recommendation of RO water with a fair amount of calcium chloride supplement.

IMO you should brew your favorite style with the undiluted (pretty soft and low in sulfate) water and then again with diluted water. Pick the one that gives the best beer. Then adjust the calcium chloride addition until you hit your sweet spot.

 

[mabrungard]

Can anyone smarter then me, tell me if I am wasting my money diluting my water?

In my opinion, this water has fairly low mineralization and does not require any reductions in ionic content by dilution. It should be a fairly good starting point for brewing. Adding more calcium content is a good idea to improve yeast health and flocculation. Adding either chloride or sulfate would be a taste decision left to the brewer.

If you want to have more guidance for water adjustments, use Bru'n Water and review the Water Knowledge page at the Bru'n Water website.

 

[Willum]

Only you can answer that question. The guidelines in this thread are meant to get you started down the path to better beer. It's strongly implied if not explicitly stated that you must experiment to determine what level of minerals gives you the beer you like best. I can observe that most people like beers made with low mineral water backed up with some chloride. That's the basis for the Primer's recommendation of RO water with a fair amount of calcium chloride supplement.

IMO you should brew your favorite style with the undiluted (pretty soft and low in sulfate) water and then again with diluted water. Pick the one that gives the best beer. Then adjust the calcium chloride addition until you hit your sweet spot.

Thanks for the reply. I think am going to do exactly what you said. I tend to gravitate towards soft water beers (pils, kolsch, etc). One of favorite beers to make is a belgian wit. I use a pretty simple grain bill 50% wheat, 50% pils, low ibu, orange, and coriander (I tend to think of wit as a soft water beer). This beer comes out good when I use the soft water suggestion from the first post, with 50% distilled water. The PH is usually around 5.35. I have never made it with 100% tap from this water supply (I moved recently and never adjusted my water at the old place).

I guess I will bottle some from the current keg and make the wit again with all tap water and compare the two.

Thanks again for the all the advice throughout this thread. It has really helped me to get started with adjusting my water.

 

[Willum]

In my opinion, this water has fairly low mineralization and does not require any reductions in ionic content by dilution. It should be a fairly good starting point for brewing. Adding more calcium content is a good idea to improve yeast health and flocculation. Adding either chloride or sulfate would be a taste decision left to the brewer.

If you want to have more guidance for water adjustments, use Bru'n Water and review the Water Knowledge page at the Bru'n Water website.

One of the reasons I posted last night was that it looked like if I could add calcium I could duplicate the same mineral content that Ajdelange suggests in the original post without wasting money on distilled water. How can I add calcium without adding chloride? I have heard that adding chalk is not a good idea.

 

[ajdelange]

How can I add calcium without adding chloride?

By adding calcium sulfate or calcium lactate or calcium phosphate or... The point is that there has to be some '___ate' in there representing the anion of some acid (which can ever be water: calcium hydroxide)

I have heard that adding chalk is not a good idea.

The acid can be carbonic in which case the 'ate' is bicarbonate or carbonate i.e. you add calcium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate (calcium bicarbonate has to be made from calcium carbonate and CO2 gas). Neither of these is a good idea (especially for light beers), nor is calcium hydroxide because all three contribute to alkalinity which represents the tendency to pull your mash pH too high.

If you use the chloride or sulfate the mash pH won't be affected as strongly (the calcium tends to pull it lower but it takes a lot of calcium to make an appreciable difference) but you'll have to deal with the consequences of higher chloride and/or sulfate levels. Chloride generally does good things to beer (to my taste at least) up to a point. Sulfate also is thought by many to improve beer up to a point but there are also many others who think it is detrimental. I am one of those. I am fascinated by the fact that USEPA limits sulfate in drinking water to 250 mg/L or less because more than that tastes bad while at the same time many brewers would consider that sulfate level to low for their beers.

Starting from low mineral water you should be able to get as much calcium as you need without going over on the chloride.

Be sure not to undershoot on the calcium chloride. Beers can be made with distilled water but tend to be thin bodied without the support of some chloride.

 

[Willum]

By adding calcium sulfate or calcium lactate or calcium phosphate or... The point is that there has to be some '___ate' in there representing the anion of some acid (which can ever be water: calcium hydroxide)


The acid can be carbonic in which case the 'ate' is bicarbonate or carbonate i.e. you add calcium bicarbonate or calcium carbonate (calcium bicarbonate has to be made from calcium carbonate and CO2 gas). Neither of these is a good idea (especially for light beers), nor is calcium hydroxide because all three contribute to alkalinity which represents the tendency to pull your mash pH too high.

If you use the chloride or sulfate the mash pH won't be affected as strongly (the calcium tends to pull it lower but it takes a lot of calcium to make an appreciable difference) but you'll have to deal with the consequences of higher chloride and/or sulfate levels. Chloride generally does good things to beer (to my taste at least) up to a point. Sulfate also is thought by many to improve beer up to a point but there are also many others who think it is detrimental. I am one of those. I am fascinated by the fact that USEPA limits sulfate in drinking water to 250 mg/L or less because more than that tastes bad while at the same time many brewers would consider that sulfate level to low for their beers.

Starting from low mineral water you should be able to get as much calcium as you need without going over on the chloride.

Be sure not to undershoot on the calcium chloride. Beers can be made with distilled water but tend to be thin bodied without the support of some chloride.

Okay, I get it now. I am actually planning on cutting out the distilled water and just adjusting my tap water. I cannot find packaged RO water in my area and i do not have an RO system so that is not an option at this time. I was just worried about 42ppm of chloride compared to the 16 ppm of calcium in my tap water. If I add calcium chloride it seems to increase both of them. This was the reason i was diluting with Distilled. I believe based your orginal discription of "soft water" my chloride is the only mineral with a higher ppm.

 

[mabrungard]

Be sure not to undershoot on the calcium chloride. Beers can be made with distilled water but tend to be thin bodied without the support of some chloride.

I agree there! I tasted an APA made with straight distilled water with no mineral additions. It was very thin and bland, even though the beer was made with a competent recipe and there were no other brewing faults noted. I tend to like sulfate in my APAs, but I wonder how this beer would have changed with just a calcium chloride addition? I think I'm going to have to try my next APA with only calcium chloride. I can always add sulfate post fermentation if I don't like it.

 

[phoenixs4r]

So, as someone who is having an embarrassingly hard time focusing on burying my nose into this thread, and learn better by attempting and having someone tell me what i'm doing right or wrong, would it be best to post a recipe and water additions in this thread or start my own?

 

[Yooper]

So, as someone who is having an embarrassingly hard time focusing on burying my nose into this thread, and learn better by attempting and having someone tell me what i'm doing right or wrong, would it be best to post a recipe and water additions in this thread or start my own?

To avoid it getting "lost" and not seen, I'd start a new thread. If you post your water profile, an expert (not me!) could give you some pointers.

 

[lschiavo]

So, as someone who is having an embarrassingly hard time focusing on burying my nose into this thread, and learn better by attempting and having someone tell me what i'm doing right or wrong, would it be best to post a recipe and water additions in this thread or start my own?

Post away. You have AJ and MB helping. Take advantage.