98% apparent attenuation, should I be worried?

[Remos112]

Hello everybody I am a bit puzzeled and could use your advice.

A while back I cultured some dregs from brewery Het Anker harvested from bottles Hopsinjoor.

A went well and I brewed a test extract batch which would give me enough yeast for my intended bigger brew.

Thing is though OG was 1.050 and I just did a Hydrometer test:

The sample was 23c so I corrected it to the right temperature and still ended op with
1.001, my ABV calculator tells me this is 98% attenuation and it would give the beer about 6,4 % ABV.

Is this even possible? The kit was intended to end dry as the package said 1.050-1.005
a week ago it was 1.005 but today it has dropped further.

The beer smells and tastes good, slightly bitter though.

What could be going on here? Wild yeast, some kind of infection perhaps? And most importantly what should I do with the yeast? Keep it for the intended brew, or just toss it and buy another yeast strain and go with that one.

Any comments and help is very much appreciated!
Thanks in advance!
Remi

 

[Remos112]

The kit was Mangrove Jacks Lucky Goat pale ale for 23 liters.
The kit asked for 1 kg of sugar, I used 500g DME and 500Gr Golden Syrup instead to give it more mouthfeel. Probably a lot of fermentable sugars in the mix, but still, 1.001 seems unreal low!

 

[dmtaylor]

I am not familar with that beer. However, I can tell you that some saison-style ale yeasts can indeed ferment down to 1.000. Perhaps that is what you have here. It's possible.

 

[Remos112]

I am not familar with that beer. However, I can tell you that some saison-style ale yeasts can indeed ferment down to 1.000. Perhaps that is what you have here. It's possible.

That's somewhat comforting! 1.001 or 1.005 isn't that big of a difference I guess, it's just I've never seen any brew end at that low gravity.

 

[MrPowers]

I've had belgians/saisons end as low as 1.002 before, so its very possible.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Hopsinjoor Het Anker is a Belgian brew. They are probably using 3711, Dupont or something similar. Those types of strains have flavors more potent and pungent (some people use the word "funky") than typical ale yeasts. Give it a week to carb and smooth out. I find them super yummy.

I kegged a batch of Saison using 3711 last week. OG=1.054 FG=1.002. It's just a beast of a yeast. Nothing to be concerned with.

 

[Remos112]

Hopsinjoor Het Anker is a Belgian brew. They are probably using 3711, Dupont or something similar.

I kegged a batch of Saison using 3711 last week. OG=1.054 FG=1.002. It's just a beast of a yeast. Nothing to be concerned with.

Solid info thanks! I'll add 3177 to the possible yeasts list.
set the fridge now at 4C and I will bottle it around christmas

 

[SoCal-Doug]

It may also be a blend or some sort of morphed house strain. Keep us posted on the results. It might be something us "Belgian Fanatics" want to culture up in the future

 

[tgodsill]

I would first check the accuracy of the hydrometer using some distilled water.

 

[Remos112]

I would first check the accuracy of the hydrometer using some distilled water.

I dropped the hydro in tap water right after, it read 1.000

 

[Remos112]

Here's the recipe I am planning to brew with it early next year.
Do I need to set the attenuation higher? Or does this seem reasonable, using the French Saison Parameters?
https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/575227/gouden-carolus-classic

 

[Remos112]

The beer is cold crashed now at 4"C for the last week, tasted a sample today and its very nice, fruity, pretty bitter, if anything I would call it a Belgian Pale Ale. Will bottle tomorrow, and use a part of the yeast cake for my planned Gouden Carolus clone. Will keep y'all updated!

 

[Zver]

Apparent attenuatuation cold be up to 122% (in that case real attenuation is 100%).

 

[Remos112]

Here's an update on this yeast.
currently at almost 3 weeks in the fermenter is my Gouden Carolus Classic attempt, I'm hoping you guys could answer some questions.
Here is some data:
The recipe created in Beersmith:

Fermentation so far:

As you can it is a really slow fermenter, but it does love heat! Also it attenuates like crazy. will take a final reading this weekend before bottling, or is it better to wait an extra week?
Also I was under the assumption I had a fair bit of unfermentables in my recipe so my FG would be higher, am I wrong? Beersmith calculated the [email protected], obviously I am way passed that, this was my mash schedule:

Mash effieciency was 84%
Next time I am really hoping to hit the 8.5% ABV to match the original what would you guys figure to be the best way to achieve this?
1 Adjust the grainbill (less pillsner malt)
2 Adjust the mash schedule to get more unfermentable sugars.
3 Switch to a lower attenuating (perhaps more predictable yeast which I really don't want to since this is the original Carolus strain)
Any input is very much appreciated.

 

[Zver]

Next time I am really hoping to hit the 8.5% ABV to match the original what would you guys figure to be the best way to achieve this?

If you bottle conditioning (not force carb), you’ll get plus 0.4 abv by adding priming sugar.

 

[Remos112]

If you bottle conditioning (not force carb), you’ll get plus 0.4 abv by adding priming sugar.

I know, which makes my situation even slightly worse!

 

[Zver]

 

[Remos112]

Nobody a good idea how to proceed next time?

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Culture some dregs from a couple bottles of Allegash White (or their other Belgian brews, they use the same yeast for most of their products). It is an excellent Belgian type yeast blend but does not over-attenuate. Ferment it at 21 to 24. Use a blow-off tube! It is voracious and fast. It's my go-to yeast blend for wit's and many other Belgian type brews except Saisons (for Saison's I use a DuPont culture / 3711 blend).

 

[Jayjay1976]

For Saison's I use a DuPont culture / 3711 blend.

+1 for the 3711/3724 blend to brew a good saison. 3711 achieves the level of dryness that is critical to the style, while 3724 produces that quintessential estery Belgian character. This was my first brew and until now still my best batch ever. Took a month after bottling to smooth out the 9% ABV, and it gets better yet with time. 3711 is indeed a monster attenuator, but keep in mind ethanol is lighter than water and this is misleading because it allows apparent attenuations below 1.000 when there may still be sugars and dextrins present. This is a limitation of refractometers and the reason they are useless after fermentation begins, because they can only measure the concentration of sugar in water. Once ethanol enters the picture, there is no way to know the breakdown of a given density.

Sorry if I'm overstating the obvious, I'm still learning and all this is new and shocking to me.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

I'm a huge Saison fan (classic Belgian/French styles, not the Americanized stuff). Always have at least one on tap. I don't add sugar. That's American "can't leave well enough alone" thing to raise the perception of dryness and bump the ABV. I find that much above 7% starts to really degrade the flavors and limits people from enjoying 3 or 4 pints at a sitting. To high an OG with grain, the malt to yeast flavor balance goes whacky. IMO, the heavier Belgian brews (whether or not a Saison yeast is used) are actually Dubbel's or Tripel's (which can be quite yummy also). With a beast attenuator like 3711 it's a bitch to keep the ABV at a sensible level, and keep it dry, while still maintaining flavor and body. Practice makes perfect though.

Consider for a moment what a Saison (Farmhouse Ale) is... The land owners and farmers would brew to quench, hydrate and refresh the farm workers. They needed something that tasted good, did not have a lot of alcohol (thus DEhydrating the labor and making them not want to work), and could be cheaply made with what they had. Many farmers had limited or no access to hops. Sometimes spices and root (such as ginger) were used to help balance the malt. Rumors say that the yeasts were originally blended with champagne or other strains to develop more flavors. Fascinating stuff for brewing nerds

This was my December Saison batch on day 8 going into the keg at 1.003. No finings. 6.6% ABV. Dry as the Mohave with plenty of malt complexity and Dupont funk. The next batch is happily bubbling away since family and friends over the holidays destroyed my libation stock.

 

[ESBrewer]

It seems to be an attenuative yeast, you had a low OG in the original attempt (the one with OG 1.050) compared to Hopsinjoor and you add a lot of sugar so I think the very low FG is an expected result. Your Hopsinjoor clone will end up a little bit higher because the OG is much higher. If it goes too low you want to change either the recipe (less sugar/more unfermentables from higher mash temp or specialty grains) or the yeast (are u sure Het Anker uses the same strain in bottles & primary fermentation). There is also a chance that yeast changed its character when it was cultured from the bottles.

 

[Remos112]

It seems to be an attenuative yeast, you had a low OG in the original attempt (the one with OG 1.050) compared to Hopsinjoor and you add a lot of sugar so I think the very low FG is an expected result. Your Hopsinjoor clone will end up a little bit higher because the OG is much higher. If it goes too low you want to change either the recipe (less sugar/more unfermentables from higher mash temp or specialty grains) or the yeast (are u sure Het Anker uses the same strain in bottles & primary fermentation). There is also a chance that yeast changed its character when it was cultured from the bottles.

First off all the first brew was nothing more then a drinkable 20L yeast starter, without ever the goal of a very good beer (but drinkable will do) the low FG was expected, I did however not expect it to be THAT low.

My clone attempt was the Gouden Carolus classic not the Hopsinjoor, but I read the Hopsinjoor is the only beer bottle conditioned thus suitable for yeast harvest.

I am not 100% sure it is the right yeast, but let's say 90% the clone looks smells and tastes spot on, other then a bit higher in ABV. I think it is the right yeast. I'm not sure what the FG is on a real Carolus, but around 1.010 doesn't seem that far fetched.

I played around in Beersmith a bit and lowered the malt contents a bit, also I upped the attenuation in the yeast properties. This gives me the following result:
Est OG:1.074
Est OG:1.011
Est Abv: 8.2%
It changes the candi syrup from 7% to 7.2% so not a huge difference there
The ABV including a little bump from bottling should be close enough to te orignal.

One more thing, is it possible if I would have fermented this cooler it would have stopped earlier? It seemed stuck or at least VERY slow until I upped the temperature to 25C.
Thanks for all the input from all of you!

Also I like to say, not until this brew I realized how difficult brewing actually is. So many factors like grains potential mash temperature, fermentation temperature yeast proporties and fermentation temperatures. So many ways to steer a recipe that it's very difficult to know which is the right move. It's frustrating, yet so challenging and addictive. This brewing obsession is here to stay!

 

[Remos112]

With a beast attenuator like 3711 it's a bitch to keep the ABV at a sensible level, and keep it dry, while still maintaining flavor and body. Practice makes perfect though.

Rumors say that the yeasts were originally blended with champagne or other strains to develop more flavors. Fascinating stuff for brewing nerds



View attachment 554476

I agree that is is a challenge to makes this beer with the Anker yeast, but part of it makes it just the more fun, If they can do it at The Anker, I'm not going to stop until I succeed! The brewing nerd in me can't let it go lol. Very fascinating stuff indeed.

That's one tasty looking brew you've got there!

 

[radwizard]

I'm a huge Saison fan (classic Belgian/French styles, not the Americanized stuff). Always have at least one on tap. I don't add sugar. That's American "can't leave well enough alone" thing to raise the perception of dryness and bump the ABV. I find that much above 7% starts to really degrade the flavors and limits people from enjoying 3 or 4 pints at a sitting. To high an OG with grain, the malt to yeast flavor balance goes whacky. IMO, the heavier Belgian brews (whether or not a Saison yeast is used) are actually Dubbel's or Tripel's (which can be quite yummy also). With a beast attenuator like 3711 it's a bitch to keep the ABV at a sensible level, and keep it dry, while still maintaining flavor and body. Practice makes perfect though.

I was under the impression that the Original 1.026-1.040 Farmhouse beers almost always used a small amount of Sugar, or Syrup.