Beer not carbonating in the bottle

[BRbarfanTimmy]

Hello!

Need advice please. I made the below on 6/1. I added a dry Nottingham yeast. Fermentation was done in a carboy and was extremely active. I used a blow off tube and collected at least a half gallon of liquid and krauzen in the collection vessel. I bottled on 6/22 into 22oz capped bottles and ended up with just about 4 gallons. I added priming sugar to the bottling bucket and mixed prior to bottling. Since then they have been conditioning in the basement which is right around 72 this time of year. I tested at 2 weeks, 3 weeks, 5 weeks, and last night. All bottles have been flat.

First I am wondering what could cause this? It is a high ABV beer and I've read about adding add'l yeast before bottling, but have never gone that route. I've done many other 5 gallon kits and all have carbonated normally, but they were all lower ABV. I did not take before and after gravity readings, but I typically don't. I do plan on some higher ABV kits in the future so if add'l yeast is recommended I can plan on that.

Second, is there a way to fix this situation? I do plan to give it more time as I've read about some beers taking many months, but if after 8 weeks they are still flat I think something should be done. My buddy forgot the sugar one time and used carbonation tablets, but that was only after two days in the bottle.

https://www.morebeer.com/products/scotch-ale-extract-beer-brewing-kit-5-gallons.html

Appreciate any help!
Tim

 

[Broken Crow]

Is this the same Red Ale you had a problem with in June? https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/carbonation-issue-triage-and-fix-needed.732796/
That thread was left unresolved... If it is then rather than go through it all again, you could reply to the last comments as a starting point,... What remedies have you tired so far?

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

No this is a different brew - a scotch ale with link above. The red ale did carb up at around 4 weeks. I was a bit hasty in posting last time and was not patient enough it seems. This beer is over six weeks and there is nothing happening. Maybe more time is needed, but its been long enough that I'm concerned.

 

[Broken Crow]

Higher gravities will take proportionally longer, all methods being the same. Maybe just wait another week or so, perhaps agitating.
I see that you're a relatively 'new brewer'....Glad you stuck with it! You'll probably get better and more detailed responses from other members, but from me; Welcome to the Long Learning Curve! Not making light of it, but keep working on the first lesson: Patience. Wether the brew itself, or the empircal know-how gathered by asking these questions, patience always pays off.
In the meantime; What's your gravities?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I added priming sugar to the bottling bucket and mixed prior to bottling.

What calculations did you use to determine how much priming sugar to add?

 

[Snuffy]

This has got to be your bottles. If you primed and bottled after 3 weeks with Notty, they should have plumped up tight in 2 weeks at the most. Are you leaving them at room temp or storing them cold? Get some good clamp-top bottles. Enjoy some nice green Grolsch for a bit.

 

[mac_1103]

If you primed and bottled after 3 weeks with Notty, they should have plumped up tight in 2 weeks at the most. Are you leaving them at room temp or storing them cold?

Well OP said:

I bottled on 6/22 into 22oz capped bottles and ended up with just about 4 gallons. I added priming sugar to the bottling bucket and mixed prior to bottling. Since then they have been conditioning in the basement which is right around 72 this time of year.

Anyhow, 8% ABV is not usually enough to make me worry about whether the yeast can still bottle condition. Unless the caps aren't crimped on correctly I'd suspect that you didn't use enough priming sugar as suggested in post #5.

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

What calculations did you use to determine how much priming sugar to add?

I added the 5oz package that was included with the kit. Dissolved in boiling water and added to the bottling bucket as usual.

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

This has got to be your bottles. If you primed and bottled after 3 weeks with Notty, they should have plumped up tight in 2 weeks at the most. Are you leaving them at room temp or storing them cold? Get some good clamp-top bottles. Enjoy some nice green Grolsch for a bit.

I use a mix of 22oz bottles with caps and 1L clamp tops. Depending on what I have for emptys I mix it up. For this beer it was all 22oz. I've opened four so far to randomly sample and all are the same. All are stored at room temp (72-74) but are chilled for a few hours before opening.

 

[hotbeer]

You are determining them flat by pouring them in a glass and looking for bubbles and tasting it aren't you?

If you didn't leave much headspace, they won't give that nice pfffft sound that we all love to hear when a bottle is opened. In 12 fl oz bottles that requires over 1 inch of headspace. I fill most of my bottles to within a millimeter or so of the top. I don't get any sound when I open them. I will leave some with a 1" - 1¼" headspace just in case I want to give them to others and not have them think the beer is flat when they open it.

You say caps and clamp tops. Caps being the crimped crown cap and clamp tops being the contraption with a plug and rubber seal and trapeze wire contraption. I usually know them as swing tops.

For the crimped crown caps, double check that the sides are vertical. If they are angled out, you didn't get a good crimp. I don't us swing tops, but for people that have posted carbonation issues with them, many times it turns out to be old seals that should have been replaced.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@BRbarfanTimmy : Given the information available (as of #9), my thought is to let them sit for a while longer (2 weeks? 4 weeks?). There appears to be sufficient sugar and eventually the existing yeast will get to work on it.

An alternative would be to get some bottle conditioning yeast (e.g. CBC-1, EC-1118), individually dose some bottles, then wait two weeks. I wouldn't add additional sugar (or carb drops) as there appears to be sufficient sugar for bottle conditioning.

It's popular at the moment to suggest pitching fresh yeast of the same strain into the bottle - I have no experience with doing that. I know that bottle conditioning yeast is designed for a purpose (bottle conditioning) so that's what I choose to use.

FWIW, I've done a couple of split bottle conditions at 75F: one part with fresh CBC-1 and one part with just the original yeast. Even at 75F, the bottles with just the original yeast took the usual 2 to 3 weeks to carbonate (the bottles with CBC-1 had good carbonation after about a week, but often the beer style was better with some additional conditioning).

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

You are determining them flat by pouring them in a glass and looking for bubbles and tasting it aren't you?

If you didn't leave much headspace, they won't give that nice pfffft sound that we all love to hear when a bottle is opened. In 12 fl oz bottles that requires over 1 inch of headspace. I fill most of my bottles to within a millimeter or so of the top. I don't get any sound when I open them. I will leave some with a 1" - 1¼" headspace just in case I want to give them to others and not have them think the beer is flat when they open it.

You say caps and clamp tops. Caps being the crimped crown cap and clamp tops being the contraption with a plug and rubber seal and trapeze wire contraption. I usually know them as swing tops.

For the crimped crown caps, double check that the sides are vertical. If they are angled out, you didn't get a good crimp. I don't us swing tops, but for people that have posted carbonation issues with them, many times it turns out to be old seals that should have been replaced.

There is no sound when the bottles are opened. There is maybe 1" of headspace. Pouring into a clear glass and looking for bubbles. I'm pretty confident the bottles are sealed correctly and I've opened four total now.

 

[hotbeer]

Are you certain what your FG was to a single point? 5 oz of corn sugar in 5 gallons of beer will be about 0.002 increase in SG. If you have a final gravity Hydrometer that reads to the single point or less than a point, then maybe you can somewhat get a idea if any sugar was put in the beer and consumed by the yeast.

If you boiled off more water and had less than 5 gallons or whatever the expected amount was, then your beer may have been a higher FG if you didn't check with a hydrometer and are only going by the recipes calculated SG's.

And in that case a bottling yeast might have been advisable. But still I'd think you'd have some carbonation.

Realize that what I said in the first paragraph will be the point you start grabbing at straws for a reason why. I'm not sure I could open a bottle of beer, measure the SG and say for certain it's 0.002 different than the FG or not. Much less will that reasonably tell you if any fermentation took place to eat up some of the sugar. For the precision of the stuff I use, and probably most others, that'd be a stretch to imagine it definitive.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Anyhow, 8% ABV is not usually enough to make me worry about whether the yeast can still bottle condition.

With these anecdotal bottle conditioning failures, are

• yeast flocculation,
• time in primary,
• and "yeast blow off"

additional considerations?

In this situation, Nottingham is a high flocculation strain, it was three weeks in primary, and there was a measurable amount of blow-off (1/2 gal, see #1). Maybe there isn't enough yeast left to bottle condition.

---

Opening a couple of bottles, adding an appropriate amount of CBC+1 / EC-1118, then bottle conditioning at around 75F for two weeks will answer a number of questions.

 

[Snuffy]

"they have been conditioning in the basement which is right around 72 this time of year."

Yeah... crap.... I missed the stored at 72 part. Oh well. Nevermind.

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

With these anecdotal bottle conditioning failures, are

• yeast flocculation,
• time in primary,
• and "yeast blow off"

additional considerations?

In this situation, Nottingham is a high flocculation strain, it was three weeks in primary, and there was a measurable amount of blow-off (1/2 gal, see #1). Maybe there isn't enough yeast left to bottle condition.

---

Opening a couple of bottles, adding an appropriate amount of CBC+1 / EC-1118, then bottle conditioning at around 75F for two weeks will answer a number of questions.

Thank you. I'm going to try adding some yeast to a few bottles and see how that goes. Appreciate it.

 

[Cloudedchicken]

Hi
I had a similar issue
I bottled a 10.5% triple in the grolsh flip top bottles, after 8 weeks conditioning, no carbonation at all, I suspected that those bottles were leaching air, I pulled all the bottles,,,added 1 coopers drop and 1/32tsp of CBC1 dry yeast, transferred to crown capped bottles 12oz, back in closet,,,after 2 weeks the carbonation was fantastic, large and robust, amazing,,,you could have different issues, but your yeast in high ABV brews may have been done in,,,I would pull the batch if in the flip tops and use crown caps, and if they are 12 oz do my method, It worked perfect for me, again, your results may vary....

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

That's great feedback. Thank you. I am testing a few bottles right now. They are 22oz bottles with caps. I opened three and added a small amount of CBC1 (12ish grains). Will check them in a few weeks.

 

[Cloudedchicken]

That's great feedback. Thank you. I am testing a few bottles right now. They are 22oz bottles with caps. I opened three and added a small amount of CBC1 (12ish grains). Will check them in a few weeks.

Good Job, I would experiment as well with just the CBC and do a few with the CBC AND sugar

 

[TwistedGray]

Try this...

Pop the cap on one and put a 1/2tsp of white sugar, recap, and give it two weeks in the bottle. Then fridge for 1-2 days and enjoy. It'll be carb'd.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/thread...ructions-with-cane-sugar.683687/#post-8952818

 

[ncbrewer]

Without going into details, I'll suggest this. If you decide to add more priming sugar, be sure that the total, including what may already be there but not fermented yet, isn't enough to over-carbonate. Bottle bombs are dangerous.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I opened three and added a small amount of CBC1 (12ish grains)

if "12ish grains" means 12 of these (see arrow)

that may be a meaningful underpitch. If you don't see carbonation after two weeks, you may want to give it (even more) time.

Lallemand suggests 10g/hL (26 gal) or roughly 2g / 5 gal. Scaling down to bottle sizes and converting to level measuring spoons, my math suggests 1/64 tsp for 12 oz bottles and 1/32 tsp for 22 oz bottles. I've been using 1/32 tsp for all my 12 oz bottles and seeing carbonation in 5 to 7 days (at 75F). I'm trying a batch using 1/64 tsp at 68F (which I'll ignore for 7 to 10 days before testing 1st bottle).

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

if "12ish grains" means 12 of these (see arrow)

View attachment 855286​

that may be a meaningful underpitch. If you don't see carbonation after two weeks, you may want to give it (even more) time.

Lallemand suggests 10g/hL (26 gal) or roughly 2g / 5 gal. Scaling down to bottle sizes and converting to level measuring spoons, my math suggests 1/64 tsp for 12 oz bottles and 1/32 tsp for 22 oz bottles. I've been using 1/32 tsp for all my 12 oz bottles and seeing carbonation in 5 to 7 days (at 75F). I'm trying a batch using 1/64 tsp at 68F (which I'll ignore for 7 to 10 days before testing 1st bottle).

Thanks. You could 100% be correct. I don't have a gram scale or small measuring spoons so it was a guesstimate based on the math. I'm ordering some today.

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

Update - As discussed above I added a small amount of CBC on 8/9 to three test bottles. I checked one bottle on 8/21 and there was to my judgement a slight improvement. There was a bit more PFFF when opening the bottle and a small amount of carbonization in the glass, but it was still quite flat. I opened another one today and there was incremental improvement, but still quite far from ideal. The last bottle is going to camp out for another month at least if not more. Also on 8/21, as suggested by BrewnWKopperKat, I increased the pitch on four more test bottles with 1/32 tsp of CBC. I'll let you all know how these do in another week or so. Temp in the basement has been pretty consistent at around 72 degrees.

Very much appreciate all of the help and suggestions. Assuming positive results with the increased pitch, I'll add to the remaining bottles.

On a similar note and after some deep dives on this community and others, I decided to proactively add some CBC when bottling two additional beers. I rehydrated 3 gms on a 5 gallon batch and added to the bottling bucket along with the priming sugar. One was a Brewers Best Imperial Nut Brown and the other a Brewers Best Witbier that I had racked in secondary with pineapple. I checked a bottle of each after 7 days and they were carbed nicely. That said they also tasted a bit yeasty and had not fully settled out. I'm not looking to speed up the carb time, but to make sure I wasn't doing something else wrong in the process. Others have suggested CBC addition as a safety net, but it could also impact flavor.

To be fair, I've made this Witbier extract kit before, and it was also carbed after 7 days and really good after 21 days, but wanted to experiment with the CBC as a learning exercise.

 

[mac_1103]

Others have suggested CBC addition as a safety net, but it could also impact flavor.

CBC-1 really shouldn't impact flavor. It only ferments the priming sugar and it is about as clean and neutral as yeast gets.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Others have suggested CBC addition as a safety net, but it could also impact flavor.

Where those "others" actually using CBC-1 or where they just repeating what they read?

If those "others" were actually using CBC-1 and were actually getting flavor impacts, did they include recipe, process notes, and specific flavor impacts?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

follow up ...

[Aug 11]: I'm trying a batch using 1/64 tsp at 68F (which I'll ignore for 7 to 10 days before testing 1st bottle).

... the result (using 1/64 tsp in 12 oz bottles) was essentially the same as using 1/32 tsp.

 

[ZachAttach]

This is strange...I'd be scratching my head too. I might suggest trying a few troubleshooting steps at once to try to find the problem quickly. You could try adding a little yeast to one bottle and adding a little sugar to another bottle. I imagine it's one of those two issues unless you have some other strange issue with the bottle or storage condition that could be killing the yeast, but that's probably not a problem.

While you wait the ~2 weeks on your experiments to carb, you can take some of you uncarbonated bottled beer and mix it into a container with some DME or something else yeast would grow in, and let it go for a few hours around RT. After a few hours, take a look at it & give it a whiff. You should notice some visible changes and smell that yeasty beer/bread smell. If you don't, your yeast either (i) didn't make it into the bottle for some reason, or (ii) was killed during/after bottling.

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

Update - As discussed above I added a small amount of CBC on 8/9 to three test bottles. I checked one bottle on 8/21 and there was to my judgement a slight improvement. There was a bit more PFFF when opening the bottle and a small amount of carbonization in the glass, but it was still quite flat. I opened another one today and there was incremental improvement, but still quite far from ideal. The last bottle is going to camp out for another month at least if not more. Also on 8/21, as suggested by BrewnWKopperKat, I increased the pitch on four more test bottles with 1/32 tsp of CBC. I'll let you all know how these do in another week or so. Temp in the basement has been pretty consistent at around 72 degrees.

Very much appreciate all of the help and suggestions. Assuming positive results with the increased pitch, I'll add to the remaining bottles.

On a similar note and after some deep dives on this community and others, I decided to proactively add some CBC when bottling two additional beers. I rehydrated 3 gms on a 5 gallon batch and added to the bottling bucket along with the priming sugar. One was a Brewers Best Imperial Nut Brown and the other a Brewers Best Witbier that I had racked in secondary with pineapple. I checked a bottle of each after 7 days and they were carbed nicely. That said they also tasted a bit yeasty and had not fully settled out. I'm not looking to speed up the carb time, but to make sure I wasn't doing something else wrong in the process. Others have suggested CBC addition as a safety net, but it could also impact flavor.

To be fair, I've made this Witbier extract kit before, and it was also carbed after 7 days and really good after 21 days, but wanted to experiment with the CBC as a learning exercise.

Update - I tested one of the bottles that had 1/32 tsp of CBC added (2 weeks of aging) and it was a huge improvement. I'm going to let the other two I did sit for another few weeks. Also added 1/32 to the rest of the bottles. All of those were from the original bottling on 6/22 and all were still flat when opened.

Appreciate everyone's help!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Also added 1/32 to the rest of the bottles. All of those were from the original bottling on 6/22 and all were still flat when opened.

Please try to "report back" on the results for the "rest" of the bottles (those bottled on 6/22 and re-yeasted recently).

I'm not aware of anyone that has experience with adding CBC-1 2.5 months after bottling - so your experiences will be valuable to those bottle conditioning big beers.

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

Please try to "report back" on the results for the "rest" of the bottles (those bottled on 6/22 and re-yeasted recently).

I'm not aware of anyone that has experience with adding CBC-1 2.5 months after bottling - so your experiences will be valuable to those bottle conditioning big beers.

The CBC addition worked really well. Just to recap this beer was brewed on 6/1 and bottled on 6/22. Bottle checks at multiple points were all flat. On 8/21 I tested four bottles with 1/32tsp of CBC and they produced good results after 2 and 3 weeks. On 9/6 I added 1/32tsp to all remaining bottles. I opened a bottle tonight after 2 weeks and its nicely carbed up. So to your point @BrewnWKopperKat, it can be done. My belief is that too much yeast was lost in fermentation. I used a five gallon carboy and the blow off was intense. As mentioned I lost at least 3/4 of a gallon of liquid out the blow out tube. In a larger vessel the results may have been very different. Appreciate everyone's input and advice.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

The only beer I ever made that failed to carbonate (I did not try adding more yeast), was a 9.sumthing abv stout, fermented with Nottingham dry yeast.

Ever since, I've used bottling yeast (CBC a couple times, but now, exclusively EC-1118 cuz it's a lot cheaper, and I can't tell any difference) for all of my 8% or higher abv beers.

Also: cheers @BRbarfanTimmy for the update! How is the taste? Judging solely by the abv of that morebeer kit, I'm guessing they are aiming for "Founder's Dirty *******". But regardless, how does it taste?

 

[BRbarfanTimmy]

The only beer I ever made that failed to carbonate (I did not try adding more yeast), was a 9.sumthing abv stout, fermented with Nottingham dry yeast.

Ever since, I've used bottling yeast (CBC a couple times, but now, exclusively EC-1118 cuz it's a lot cheaper, and I can't tell any difference) for all of my 8% or higher abv beers.

Also: cheers @BRbarfanTimmy for the update! How is the taste? Judging solely by the abv of that morebeer kit, I'm guessing they are aiming for "Founder's Dirty *******". But regardless, how does it taste?

It tastes pretty great actually. I like Wee Heavy style beers and this one fits the bill. I'm in CO and one of my favorites is Oskar Old Chub and this is similar. Not as hoppy as Dirty *******. I'm planning on brewing it again. I've got a high ABV abbey ale going now and the kit included a yeast to add to secondary in order to help carb up in the bottle. I racked to secondary last weekend.

https://boomchugalug.com/collection...bbey-ale-beer-brewing-extract-beer-recipe-kit

 

[CascadesBrewer]

The CBC addition worked really well. Just to recap this beer was brewed on 6/1 and bottled on 6/22. Bottle checks at multiple points were all flat. On 8/21 I tested four bottles with 1/32tsp of CBC and they produced good results after 2 and 3 weeks. On 9/6 I added 1/32tsp to all remaining bottles. I opened a bottle tonight after 2 weeks and its nicely carbed up. So to your point @BrewnWKopperKat, it can be done. My belief is that too much yeast was lost in fermentation. I used a five gallon carboy and the blow off was intense. As mentioned I lost at least 3/4 of a gallon of liquid out the blow out tube. In a larger vessel the results may have been very different. Appreciate everyone's input and advice.

Glad to hear! I did something similar a while back. I had a beer (I forget if it was a Quad or a Dubbel) that was flat after a month in the bottles. I might have given it more time, but I wanted to get them ready for a competition (that ended up getting cancelled due to COVID). As I recall, I rehydrated some CBC-1 and injected maybe 1ml into each bottle. It worked great.

These days I just sprinkle a little bit of CBC-1 into higher ABV beers when I bottle them. Based on the discussion above, maybe I need to double check my dosing rate. I have always assumed that it would be hard to underdose given that so little is needed. Based on some calcs using a "2 g per 5 gal" rate, that would be 0.0375 g per 12 oz bottle.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

FWIW, I measured a level 1/64 tsp (aka a 'dash') of CBC-1 and it weighted around 0.045 g.