90 min brew question-

[doug293cz]

You can certainly do a concentrated wort boil when doing all grain, but your lauter efficiency, and therefore both mash and brewhouse efficiency, will take a hit. Not an issue for extract brewing because there is no lauter step involved.

Brew on

With "extract", there is a observation in How To Brew, 4e (chapter 9) that concentrated boils lead to "wort darkening and the development of off flavors". I didn't see any additional details.

Obviously, wort darkens when boiling. How much? The numbers from the presentation (above) suggest "not much".

Hard to have a discussion about "off flavors" that don't have specific names.

My observation (quoted above) that you replied to, was strictly about lauter efficiency effects. Did not address wort darkening at all. They are two completely separate topics.

Brew on

 

[doug293cz]

...
eta: my curiousity/questions are about understanding concentrated boils (boil SG 88-ish, target OG 44-ish). If a concentrated 60 min boil (the Amber Ale I mentioned) works with 'all-grain' wort, would it also work with fresh DME/LME?

Concentrated boils are most often used with extract brews, as they allow batches larger than the available boil kettle to be brewed. They are very infrequently done for all-grain, probably due to the efficiency hit.

I have heard that some large commercial breweries do concentrated boils, but they may also be using filter presses to lauter the mash, which can give you lauter efficiencies in the high 90%s. So, if you look at the total cost of production per gallon, the money saved on energy to boil, and the increased equipment capacity, makes up for the small loss of lauter efficiency (when using a filter press.) Without a filter press, the lauter losses are larger for a concentrated boil, so not attractive from a system standpoint.

Brew on

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm still curious about the specific names of the 'off' flavors that How To Brew, 4e (chapter 9) hints can occur when doing concentrated boils with extract.

 

[dmtaylor]

I'm still curious about the specific names of the 'off' flavors that How To Brew, 4e (chapter 9) hints can occur when doing concentrated boils with extract.

Caramel and burnt extract are possible... but mostly only if you don't remove from the heat and/or stir really well when adding the extract in. Or perhaps if you do a very small boil volume and add the vast majority of your water after the boil is complete.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Caramel and burnt extract are possible... but mostly only if you don't remove from the heat and/or stir really well when adding the extract in.

Thanks!

Those would be faults in the implementation of the process (and not faults inherit to fresh ingredients).

There are also number of (named) off flavors associated with 'stale' LME. Those would be ingredient handling faults (and not related directly to concentrated boils).

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks!

Those would be faults in the implementation of the process (and not faults inherit to fresh ingredients).

There are also number of (named) off flavors associated with 'stale' LME. Those would be ingredient handling faults (and not related directly to concentrated boils).

Stale extract adds an oxidized twang, which I would categorize as likewise caramel, with wet cardboard, a tanginess, and perhaps sort of metallic although that latter part might be more due to not using distilled water and thus doubling up on all the minerals in the finished beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Thanks again.

I'll (attempt to) close out this 'side topic' with a plan to brew an Amber Ale with DME using a 2x concentrated boil (OG 88-ish, SG 44-ish in fermenter). Not sure when I'll get to it as I need to order some Amber DME. I suspect that this is a "low risk" experimental brew and that I'll get an enjoyable beer with no "unexpected" or "off" flavors.

 

[Beermeister32]

One other thing to mention is different people will detect DMS, other people don’t.

I can detect DMS easily, never an issue with a 90 minute boil. Consider it best practices with Pilsner malt. Anecdotally, there are a lot of people who swear by 60 minute Pilsner boils. For me, I’ll stick with the 90 minute when using Pilsner malts. Good insurance…!

 

[shoengine]

One other thing to mention is different people will detect DMS, other people don’t.

I can detect DMS easily, never an issue with a 90 minute boil. Consider it best practices with Pilsner malt. Anecdotally, there are a lot of people who swear by 60 minute Pilsner boils. For me, I’ll stick with the 90 minute when using Pilsner malts. Good insurance…!

For me it comes down to my goals, and a shorter boil is never really one of my goals. I know some people have really tight time restrictions and I'm glad they get good results but when I brew I usually dedicate all day to it so saving half an hour or an hour doesn't do much for me.