6ft or 10ft beer line?

[jerkbag]

Hi all,

I'm having excessive foam in one of my brews, and am a little confused about beer line length. I have 6ft of 3/16in (ID) bevelex line to perlick taps in a keezer at 42F 14PSI. Pretty much any calculator I look at will come up with a length between 4-6ft. It's actually pretty hard to get a calculator to give you more than 6ft (you need about 15 PSI at 44F to get that recommendation). And yet I see lots of posts on here recommending 10ft or 12ft to people who say they have excessive foam.

So what's the deal? 10-12ft is way more then any beer line balancing equation will give you in normal circumstances. Should I just ignore the calculators and add ling length if it foams? Is there any downside to replacing all my 6 ft lines (I have 3 taps) with 10ft?

 

[hunter_le five]

I can't speak to the calculators, but longer lines (10-12ft) worked for me.

 

[diodeart]

Any thoughts on 3 to 5 foot lines? Do I need to add line length to reduce foaming? My keezer is directly behind the wall that I want to put my taps on. I'm also planning to insulate the tap box and then run the lines through a tube that will be open to both the tap box and keezer to hopefully chill the box.

 

[dnslater]

No downside to going to 10' to see if it improves the pour. Line is relatively cheap. Also an FYI, I changed to longer lines and still had issues with the first pour.. I kept the line neatly coiled on top of my kegs. I discovered that the top of my Kegerator (where the lines were) is about 52 degrees, while the bottom is at 38..... the foam was caused by the warmer lines.

I installed a small fan today and will await improvement.

 

[mlafnitzegger]

As I have read on the forums your system seems unbalanced. A balanced system will have low psi at the tap, maybe 1 or 2psi (depends on how fast you want your beer to pour and how much foaming you want). General rule; 1ft of tubing per psi. Im not going to get super technical and discuss the different ID of tubing but I carb mine at 12psi (leaving it at that psi until all drank) and have 10.5ft hoses.

 

[mlafnitzegger]

No downside to going to 10' to see if it improves the pour. Line is relatively cheap. Also an FYI, I changed to longer lines and still had issues with the first pour.. I kept the line neatly coiled on top of my kegs. I discovered that the top of my Kegerator (where the lines were) is about 52 degrees, while the bottom is at 38..... the foam was caused by the warmer lines.

I installed a small fan today and will await improvement.

+1
I agree; line temp will also increase foaming as well

 

[jerkbag]

Sounds like 10ft is the answer -- thanks all!

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

it all depends on the pressure and the diameter

I have both 3/16 and 1/4 lines in my keezer as a test just to answer this question and what Ive seen is 1/4 at 10 feet still produces quite a bit of foam, 3/16 doesn't but restricts the flow and more pressure might be needed for the impatient, so for me 1/4" at 15 feet extra wrapped around the keg worked great at 10 psi

 

[j1n]

i had 6 ft lines that came with my kegerator. Had to put the PSI to about 6-8 to get good pours. I have since replaced with better tubing and is now at 10ft and about 10psi, comes out perfect now.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

I personally don't see the point of long lines. I have 5 foot lines and my beers pour just fine. I only need about 6-8 psi to get smooth pours. I see a ton of people on here advocate for this 10-14ft lines, and I don't think it's necessary at all.

Do what works for you, and if 10 ft is what gets you great pours, by all means. I'm just on the other side of the fence that it's not necessary.

 

[hunter_le five]

I personally don't see the point of long lines. I have 5 foot lines and my beers pour just fine. I only need about 6-8 psi to get smooth pours. I see a ton of people on here advocate for this 10-14ft lines, and I don't think it's necessary at all.

Do what works for you, and if 10 ft is what gets you great pours, by all means. I'm just on the other side of the fence that it's not necessary.

How do you maintain an adequate carbonation level at 6psi?

Serving pressure is not a matter of what "gets smooth pours". Serving pressure needs to equal carbonation pressure in order to maintain the desired carb level. Most of my beers are in the ballpark of 2.4 volumes, so I both carbonate and serve at 10psi @ 38°F. I needed longer beer lines to pour smooth at that pressure. Dropping the pressure down to get a smooth pour is not a great option.

 

[zachattack]

I personally don't see the point of long lines. I have 5 foot lines and my beers pour just fine. I only need about 6-8 psi to get smooth pours. I see a ton of people on here advocate for this 10-14ft lines, and I don't think it's necessary at all.

Do what works for you, and if 10 ft is what gets you great pours, by all means. I'm just on the other side of the fence that it's not necessary.

Your PSI should be set to give you the desired carbonation; after that, line length can be adjusted so you can pour at that PSI. If you serve at 6PSI in a 40 deg F kegerator that's about 1.9 volumes of CO2 which is pretty flat by most standards. Turning the pressure up/down all the time to serve is silly and wasteful.

 

[theck]

I have heard and subscribe to length doesn't matter.. 12psi @ 36-38ish degrees and 4-5ft hoses, mine all pour fine. One keg went a little screwy and I had to redo the build so was getting foam out it it a lot, usually on the first pour. Once I broke it down and rebuilt it it is fine.

 

[wardens355]

Technically, length and diameter of tubing and material resistance are all important for determining how "well" the beer is poured, along with serving pressure. I only need 2 feet of line, but that is because I use 1/8" tubing, which has a lot higher pressure drop per foot than the standard 3/16" serving line. I needed around 10-12 feet of 3/16" tubing previously. I use this calculator with a 10 second pint pour time to estimate line length, seems to work well:

http://www.mikesoltys.com/2012/09/17/determining-proper-hose-length-for-your-kegerator/#CO

 

[raouliii]

...... I have 5 foot lines and my beers pour just fine. I only need about 6-8 psi to get smooth pours.....

A 6-8psi carb level works for you or are you dialing down the regulator for serving?

.....I see a ton of people on here advocate for this 10-14ft lines.....

That's normally based on a 10-12psi carb level and serving pressure.

 

[Rev2010]

I don't use Bevlex tubing, but the standard vinyl tubing I'm about to replace is at 12' lengths for each line as I'd read up a ton prior to kegging for the first time. 12' length is perfect, I have awesome pours no matter if it's 12 or 14.5 psi (only two I've tried so far. Only problem with my lines is the plastic taste so I'm switching out to ultra barrier silver lines in about a week. Bev-seal ultra tubing however requires even a longer line length due to the super slick glass (or glass like) inner coating. Not the same and I'm not sure what Bevlex you are using or how that might affect the length. But if regular Bevlex provides a similar resistance to standard vinyl you should be ideal with 10-12' of line.


Rev.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

Ha this is why I don't even bother to interject on "beer line length" questions. As soon as I mention I do 4-5 foot lines it gets out of hand.

I understand there's a volume calculator, and there's a formula to find all the right PSI settings, etc. I've never bothered with them.

I carbonate at about 12-14psi over the course of a week or so depending on the beer. Then I turn it down to 6-8 psi, and adjust it as necessary to get the desired flow rate. The beer is already carbonated. The CO2 at that point is just moving the beer through the lines.

 

[hunter_le five]

I carbonate at about 12-14psi over the course of a week or so depending on the beer. Then I turn it down to 6-8 psi, and adjust it as necessary to get the desired flow rate. The beer is already carbonated. The CO2 at that point is just moving the beer through the lines.

If you carbonate at 12-14psi and turn in down to 6psi, your beer will continue to lose carbonation over time. It will eventually reach an equilibrium at what serving pressure you set it to.

I think you need to do some reading on gas laws.

 

[Rev2010]

I carbonate at about 12-14psi over the course of a week or so depending on the beer. Then I turn it down to 6-8 psi, and adjust it as necessary to get the desired flow rate. The beer is already carbonated. The CO2 at that point is just moving the beer through the lines.

Maybe you're drinking your beers fast enough to not notice any difference? Pressure is pressure and if you lower the pressure below what you carbed at and serve the beer the pressure inside will lower and there will be a de-equalization of pressure between the carbonated beer and the headspace and the beer will lose some carbonation. I'll admit right up front I'm too new to the science of this to be able to accurately come up with a figure of what your overall psi will be in the carbed beer and over what time period, but for sure you know it will not just stay at 12-14 if you lower the serving pressure to 6-8. It's just against the laws of physics.

Again, you might be drinking the beer quick enough to not notice the carbonation level dropping, but it will drop. Heck, even if you open a bottle of soda and immediately reseal it and come back 2-3 days later it will taste less carbonated then a freshly opened one.


Rev.

 

[dnslater]

If you carbonate at 12-14psi and turn in down to 6psi, your beer will continue to lose carbonation over time. It will eventually reach an equilibrium at what serving pressure you set it to.

This. Eventually equilibrium happens. I am happy to come over and drink your beer before the equilibrium can occur.

 

[zachattack]

I am happy to come over and drink your beer before the equilibrium can occur.

This is the solution to this problem.

 

[hunter_le five]

The fact of the matter is this isn't one of those old hokey homebrewer myths waiting to be de-bunked. There are basic laws of physics governing how gasses behave under pressure, and how they interact with liquids with respect to temperature and pressure.

 

[DU99]

i used this bit of information to set up mine

http://www.kegking.com.au/balancing your keg system.html

 

[day_trippr]

^And a quick peek reveals that it's Yet Another Misguided Attempt At A Line Length Calculator.
It recommends under 2 meters (~ 6 feet) of 3/16" ID beer line for kegerators, when the size of the dispensing appliance means absolutely nothing wrt properly balancing a system.

Mike Soltys is the only person that's gotten the whole theory, science and practice to converge, imnsfho.
His is truly is the only beer line length calculator worth using...

Cheers!

 

[passedpawn]

^And a quick peek reveals that it's Yet Another Misguided Attempt At A Line Length Calculator.
It recommends under 2 meters (~ 6 feet) of 3/16" ID beer line for kegerators, when the size of the dispensing appliance means absolutely nothing wrt properly balancing a system.

Mike Soltys is the only person that's gotten the whole theory, science and practice to converge, imnsfho.
His is truly is the only beer line length calculator worth using...

Cheers!

Yea, that guy took it to a new level. Man!

Anyway, I started with too short and ended at about 10'. Also, fan is recommended if that doesn't work out.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

I think you need to do some reading on gas laws.

I think you need to pump the breaks. I'm not saying I'm right, and I'm not saying it can't happen or that I'm defying laws. I said it's what I do. I said I haven't noticed any problems. I've had kegs last a month, and not had a problem yet. Would this be a problem over 5 months sure, maybe. I have also noticed we as home brewers tend to get wrapped around the "science" and laws of physics, yet on our scale have such little impact it's not worth fussing over. I mean the worst case scenario, I crank the PSI back up for a few days, and PRESTO! I'm good for another month and a half...

I appreciate the offer to help me clear out my supply, but my friends seem to have a pretty good handle on that role.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Bev-seal ultra tubing however requires even a longer line length due to the super slick glass (or glass like) inner coating.[...]

Bev Seal Ultra Series 235 does indeed have a slick PET liner, but the main reason you need more line is that Kuriyama doesn't actually make Series 235 in 3/16" ID; the smallest diameter is 1/5".

And if you don't think that should make much of a difference, go here, scroll down to the line length calculator, note the recommended length with the default settings, then just change the ID from 0.1875 to 0.2 inches. The length goes from under 12 to over 16' just like that...

Cheers!

 

[Yooper]

Ha this is why I don't even bother to interject on "beer line length" questions. As soon as I mention I do 4-5 foot lines it gets out of hand.

I understand there's a volume calculator, and there's a formula to find all the right PSI settings, etc. I've never bothered with them.

I carbonate at about 12-14psi over the course of a week or so depending on the beer. Then I turn it down to 6-8 psi, and adjust it as necessary to get the desired flow rate. The beer is already carbonated. The CO2 at that point is just moving the beer through the lines.

Not picking on you! But the beer is already carbonated of course, and the c02 does push the beer. But if you leave it at 6 psi, it will go flat over a bit of time (and not much time at that). If you have 10'-12' lines, you can keep your regulator at 12 psi forever.

If you only have one beer on tap, it's not a big deal at all. But if you have three, it'd be like this: pour a beer, so turn down tap #1 to 6 psi. But now my friend wants beer #2, so turn that down to 6 psi to pour. But two weeks later, tap #1 has a beer that is undercarbed, so turn that one up to 12 psi. But that makes tap #3 foam when poured, so purge and turn down to 6 psi. etc.

It's easier to put the kegs in the kegerator, and keep them at 12 psi until they are gone. I don't play up and down with my regulator, I never have foamy beers, and I never have overcarbed or undercarbed beer. Aside from the $1 extra it cost to put in 10 foot lines vs 6' lines, I don't see a downside.

 

[Rev2010]

And if you don't think that should make much of a difference, go

Oh I know! Trust me I do. I've read a whole ridiculous ton on this since starting kegging, so I'm not one to scoff at tiny differences as if they're insignificant. I know how much more beer sits in the lines also, mentioning this due to the plastic taste pour off issue I've dealt with and is the reason I am changing tubing and wanted to go with something of a similar flow resistance.


Rev.

 

[hunter_le five]

I think you need to pump the breaks.

I promise I'm not trying to be a dick, that was a serious suggestion. Based on some of your posts, it seemed as if you could benefit from learning the physics of beer and CO2. There are very good reasons for the suggestions that we have made in this thread re: beer line length and serving pressures.

It's a little irksome when people suggest that these measures are "unnecessary" in threads where someone has a legitimate short-line issue that could easily be rectified with proper line lengths. It doesn't really help. So I apologize if my tone came across as terse.

If your methods work for you, then great. I'm not suggesting that you change if you've got your system dialed in how you like it. But our suggestions are scientifically sound and backed by tons of collective experience. The fact is kegerators work best when balanced properly for temperature/line length/pressure/carbonation level. When you ignore basic physics, things become unbalanced, and at least one of these factors will suffer as a result. If you have to run your serving pressure below carbonation pressure to get good pours, your carbonation will suffer. Adding a few feet of inexpensive beer line is a simple solution to a simple problem.

 

[FiddlersGreen87]

And I concede you and yooper are probably absolutely right. It makes total sense that equilibrium will eventually cause lower carbonation. As I said, I run 4-5ft lines and I've never had the problem. I did my research before putting my keggerator together, and after checking with a few vendors as well, they said and recommended 4-5ft lines.

I simply stated my circumstances for the OP to be able to consider the options. I didn't discredit your input, and I never intended for you to take it that way if you did. I just said in my experience I found it unnecessary.

As stated above, if I move to more than the two taps I currently have, I may have to adjust my system. Right now on my dual regulator I don't have any issues.

In the end your intent was well meant, but your deliver of equated to that of "why don't you go read a book." Either way, I'm sure neither of us will lose sleep over it. It's just a discussion, and based on your experience compared to mine, I'm probably not the one to follow. I'll reiterate, this is why I typically stay out of this topic all together lol

 

[AnOldUR]

And I concede you and yooper are probably absolutely right. ..... I'm probably not the one to follow.

Remove the word "probably" from your post and we'll all probably be in agreement. :cross:

 

[hunter_le five]

And I concede you and yooper are probably absolutely right. It makes total sense that equilibrium will eventually cause lower carbonation. As I said, I run 4-5ft lines and I've never had the problem. I did my research before putting my keggerator together, and after checking with a few vendors as well, they said and recommended 4-5ft lines.

I simply stated my circumstances for the OP to be able to consider the options. I didn't discredit your input, and I never intended for you to take it that way if you did. I just said in my experience I found it unnecessary.

As stated above, if I move to more than the two taps I currently have, I may have to adjust my system. Right now on my dual regulator I don't have any issues.

In the end your intent was well meant, but your deliver of equated to that of "why don't you go read a book." Either way, I'm sure neither of us will lose sleep over it. It's just a discussion, and based on your experience compared to mine, I'm probably not the one to follow. I'll reiterate, this is why I typically stay out of this topic all together lol

Fair 'nuff cheers