60 min. instead of 90 min. ?!

[hector]

Hi there !

Why do home brewers boil their Wort from a partial mash for 60 minutes instead of 90 minutes ?!

Hector

 

[Frodo]

Your question is a bit confusing to me. A mash regardless of type (partial or full) shouldn't be boiled at all. If you're talking about wort, then 60 minutes usually does the job with hop extraction, hot break, etc. Maybe 90 minutes for light lagers. If you're wondering about mash times, it takes what it takes for starch to convert to sugar; it may take 30 minutes or less at a higher mash temp like 156F, or may take 100 minutes at a low mash temp of 148F.

 

[hector]

Your question is a bit confusing to me.

I mean the Wort .

Wouldn't it lead to DMS problem ?!

Hector

 

[onthekeg]

DMS precursers boil off during the boil, and it is mainly in pilsner malt. If you aren't using pilsner malt, you won't have that issue.

 

[amandabab]

I mean the Wort .

Wouldn't it lead to DMS problem ?!

Hector

Some people find 90minutes better for high percentages of pilsen malt,for most everything else 60 minutes is fine.

 

[hector]

I'm going to brew a small batch ( Partial Mash ) .

O.G. = 1.052

- 5 Gravity points from Roasted malt

- 7 Gravity points from Crystal malt

- 40 Gravity points from light DME

Would it be O.K. to boil it for 60 minutes ?!

Hector

 

[amandabab]

60min will be fine, but there is really no mash there, just steeping

 

[hector]

there is really no mash there, just steeping

In fact , I'm going to mash 0.5 lbs of roasted malt first , then I'll take some of the wort and dilute it to the desired Volume in order to

get 5 gravity points in the resulting wort after the boil .

I'll steep the Crystal malt separately at 158 F for 30 minutes .

Hector

 

[Yooper]

In fact , I'm going to mash 0.5 lbs of roasted malt first , then I'll take some of the wort and dilute it to the desired Volume in order to

get 5 gravity points in the resulting wort after the boil .

I'll steep the Crystal malt separately at 158 F for 30 minutes .

Hector

You don't "mash" roasted malt. It's for steeping, but you may get a few points out of it. No reason not to steep it with the crystal, though.

 

[hector]

You don't "mash" roasted malt. It's for steeping

There have always been some roasted malts in most of recipes that need to be mashed among with other malts in the grain bill .

I use my home-made roasted malt in order to give some bready aroma to the Beer .

It takes about 30 minutes for the pH to reach the desired range , every time I mash my base malt . Therefore , I can't just steep

the roasted and crystal malt together .

Hector

 

[Denny]

There's always been some roasted malts in most of recipes that need to be mashed among with other malts in the grain bill .

I use my home-made roasted malt in order to give some bready aroma to the Beer .

It takes about 30 minutes for the pH to reach the desired range , every time I mash my base malt . Therefore , I can't just steep the roasted and crystal malt together .

Hector

Ya know, I think that you have some misconceptions about the process. There is absolutely nothing wrong with mashing the "roasted" and crystal malt together. But keep in mind that if your roast malt is very dark, you've denatured the enzymes in it. Without enzymes to convert starch to sugar, you can't technically mash.

 

[Erroneous]

And crystal malts don't need mashing since they're already fully converted. Just steeping them is fine. Dark malts are good for bringing down the pH though so if you have other grains it's good.

Also sometimes you want a longer boil to hit your target boil volume. Say you got too much water from sparging you can do a longer boil. This would also let you do a thinner mash which can aid efficiency.

 

[hector]

But keep in mind that if your roast malt is very dark, you've denatured the enzymes in it.

They aren't very dark . I roasted my pale malt in the Oven at 320 F for 30 minutes .

Hector

 

[Denny]

They aren't very dark . I roasted my pale malt in the Oven at 320 F for 30 minutes .

Hector

That's still enough to denature some of the enzymes. And there's still no reason you can't do your roast malt and crystal together.

 

[hector]

That's still enough to denature some of the enzymes. And there's still no reason you can't do your roast malt and crystal together.

Yes , but I think that I can still get some gravity points from it .

I've seen some recipes which contain chocolate malt and it also gives some gravity points , although it's much darker than my home-roasted malt .

This is the first time I'm going to brew that way .

The reason I'm going to steep crystal malt separately is that I'd like to be sure that I would have 5 gravity points from roasted malt and

7 gravity points from crystal malt .

Hector

 

[Yooper]

Yes , but I think that I can still get some gravity points from it .

I've seen some recipes which contain chocolate malt and it also gives some gravity points , although it's much darker than my home-roasted malt .

This is the first time I'm going to brew that way .

The reason I'm going to steep crystal malt separately is that I'd like to be sure that I would have 5 gravity points from roasted malt and

7 gravity points from crystal malt .

Hector

You're not understanding what we're saying. You will get the same amount of sugars out of the crystal and the toasted malt, if you put them together. There is no reason to keep them separate. They can all go in the same mash/steep or whatever you're doing. There is no diastatic power in either of them.

 

[jerryteague]

You're not understanding what we're saying. You will get the same amount of sugars out of the crystal and the toasted malt, if you put them together. There is no reason to keep them separate. They can all go in the same mash/steep or whatever you're doing. There is no diastatic power in either of them.

+1
Steeping the crystal malt, and mashing the dark malt separately just adds more time to your brew day that is unnecessary. You would do well to listen to Yooper, and the other guys, they know what they're talking about.
If you want to experiment, that's fine, but don't discount good advice either.

 

[hector]

There is no diastatic power in either of them.

Even chocolate malt has diastatic power .

Mine is not so dark as chocolate malt .

Hector

 

[Yooper]

Even chocolate malt has diastatic power .

Mine is not so dark as chocolate malt .

Hector

I've never used a brand of chocolate malt that has any diastatic power, so you must have other brands available to you in your location. I only have Briess, Crisp, Castle and Thomas Fawcett chocolate malts available to me. But I can't imagine how any chocolate malt could have any diastatic power left, because of how it's made. If you have a specific brand with a link to the actual diastatic power showing ability to convert itself, I would be very interested!

As was mentioned, once you toasted the malt, you denatured the enzymes. You can soak it all you want, but it will not be "mashing" since no conversion will be taking place. It's much like crystal malt in that way. The sugars in crystal malt are crystallized, and so available via steeping. The same is true of darker malts.

There are a few darker colored malts that can convert themselves- like one brand of English amber malt. Most amber malts can't even convert, as they have 0 diastatic power.

 

[Calix_Meus_Inebrians]

I have yet to see anything remotely close to the darkness of chocolate malt have diastatic power. 20-30 degrees lintner is usually considered the cut off for self conversion, so thats pretty much your 20 degree lovibond toasted malts (something like a dark munich or aromatic malt). As your kilning time and heat increase, you denature enzymes which means as color goes up your conversion power goes down.

 

[dgez]

After reading through this thread, twice, I have begun to question my sanity.

 

[hector]

As was mentioned, once you toasted the malt, you denatured the enzymes. You can soak it all you want, but it will not be "mashing" since no conversion will be taking place.

Just as Info :

I mashed 0.5 lbs of my home-roasted malt and after sparging it gave me 950 mL with the gravity 1.010 .

Water/Grain ratio : 2 qts/lb

If dark malts have no diastatic power , then what do those numbers in table 9 in the section 12.4.1 of John Palmer's "How To Brew" mean ?!

Hector

 

[mcl]

I mashed 0.5 lbs of my home-roasted malt and after sparging it gave me 950 mL with the gravity 1.010

Now try to ferment that out and then take a gravity reading.

 

[brycelarson]

Just as Info :

I mashed 0.5 lbs of my home-roasted malt and after sparging it gave me 950 mL with the gravity 1.010 .

Water/Grain ratio : 2 qts/lb

If dark malts have no diastatic power , then what do those numbers in table 9 in the section 12.4.1 of John Palmer's "How To Brew" mean ?!

Hector

you're misunderstanding - there is sugar in the malt - true, it's in crystal form. diastatic power is used to convert starch to sugar. You can certainly pull sugar out of your malt - but it's not through enzymatic reaction - it's simply extracting sugars that are already converted.

 

[Yooper]

Just as Info :

I mashed 0.5 lbs of my home-roasted malt and after sparging it gave me 950 mL with the gravity 1.010 .

Water/Grain ratio : 2 qts/lb

If dark malts have no diastatic power , then what do those numbers in table 9 in the section 12.4.1 of John Palmer's "How To Brew" mean ?!

Hector

Crystal malts and chocolate malt do not have diastatic power, that is, they cannot convert any starches they may have to sugar. However, the grain is made so that any sugars there are crystalized. So you can steep it and get a few gravity points.

Say you make some tea with black tea. You get some water, and steep the tea in the water. You get some tea out of it. The same is true with chocolate malt, roasted barley, crystal malt, etc. You do get color and flavor, and a few gravity points from the malt. That is why you use it. That doesn't mean it was "mashed", as it has no power to convert. It was steeped.

In order to "mash" the grain, you must use a base malt that DOES have diastatic power. There is no other way. You can soak crystal malt all day long, and won't get more out of it than if you soaked it for 20 minutes. Same with chocolate malt, roasted barley, etc.

From the bottom under the chart that you quoted, Palmer says this:
"Steeping data is experimental and was obtained by steeping 1 lb. in 1 gal at 160°F for 30 minutes. All malts were crushed in a 2 roller mill at the same setting."

If you would have steeped your chocolate malt (which you did), you would get the same PPG. There is no advantage to separating your grains, as you got exactly the same gravity points as if you would have steeped them together.

 

[onthekeg]

Just as Info :

I mashed 0.5 lbs of my home-roasted malt and after sparging it gave me 950 mL with the gravity 1.010 .

Water/Grain ratio : 2 qts/lb

If dark malts have no diastatic power , then what do those numbers in table 9 in the section 12.4.1 of John Palmer's "How To Brew" mean ?!

Hector

Now add .5 lb flaked oats to your .5lb roasted malt. You will still have the same gravity but it will be quite cloudy due to the soluble starch that will be unconverted.

Then, add .5lb crushed malt to the mixture. I bet your gravity jumps to 1.035 or more as the soluble starch is converted to sugar.

 

[Yooper]

Now add .5 lb flaked oats to your .5lb roasted malt. You will still have the same gravity but it will be quite cloudy due to the soluble starch that will be unconverted.

Then, add .5lb crushed malt to the mixture. I bet your gravity jumps to 1.035 or more as the soluble starch is converted to sugar.

Ah, much less wordy that my explanation and a better one besides!

 

[Denny]

Even chocolate malt has diastatic power .

I don't think so. Can you provide some examples?

 

[Distroid]

To Hector:

...If you would have steeped your chocolate malt (which you did), you would get the same PPG...

I think what Yooper is saying here is that your process of placing the chocolate malt in your MLT, and going thru the motions of a typical mash, is giving you the same result as simply steeping the grains.
I would reccomend grabbing an extra pound of chocolate malt, mash half as you just described, and steep the other half as Yooper describes, then compare the hydro readings between the two. If the mashed wort has a higher SG than the steeped, you were right. Post your results and others will replicate the experiment. If they are the same, Yooper is right, and your process of mashing the chocolate malt is just an overly complicated steep. If the steeped wort is higher then I dunno what the hell happened, but you'd be losing some sugar in your process.

To Everyone Else:
But as far as steeping or mashing each of the grains seperately, I think Hector just wants to know exactly where each gravity point came from.