6 oz of hops and no flavor...

[Jayjay1976]

I did not rehydrate. My research on this lead me to believe that it isn't entirely necessary. The jury is still out on this one though. It seems like some swear by it and others find it a waste of time. The only way to get to the bottom of it is for me to experiment both ways myself and go from there. If I use dry yeast in my next batch, I will rehydrate it.

The bigger the beer, the more critical it is to pitch a sufficient quantity of active, healthy yeast. Rehydrating dry yeast allows the cells to plump back up and prepares them to endure the osmotic shock of being pitched into high gravity wort. Rehydrating takes 20 minutes tops and costs nothing, why risk all the work, money and time you invest in brewing a batch?

 

[THESULLI]

Old hops can turn cheesy and would lose a lot of their bittering and aroma/flavour. So if you don't know how old they are... Also, you said nothing about water and how did you treat it. Soft water will make a beer taste and feeel bland. But I am more intrigued about why would you expect a lot of aroma and flavour with only 6 oz for 5 gallons? In a 8% beer, with no dry hopping... The only hops that would add something would be the 5 minutes addition. The fact that you cannot taste bittering, it can be tied to so many things, but it's obvious whatever hops you used, were not fresh.

I've used 3 years old hops that packed a punch, but came from a shop, that always flushes hops with nitrogen, they state AA, crop year, etc. etc. Normally I buy the latest crop, just to make sure. But leaving freshness aside, I think your expectations are high. I would never ever expect hop character from a beer that used 6 oz ( that's like 160 gr ) of hops, of which 2/3rds were added early in the boil. I use more for stouts. Simple non dry hopped Bitters/Pale Ales get 10-12 oz ( 2019 crop ) in the kettle, with 80-85% of these in the whirlpool.

You could dry hop in the keg, if you are not afraid of clogging.

I have not yet dipped my toes into the water chemistry pool... I have always used filtered water from the fridge and it has made awesome beers in the past. As far as me expecting too much out of this beer, maybe I am... But at the very least I would expect something out of 6 oz no matter how small of a contribution it made considering the fact that I have made several beers with less hops and way more bitterness and flavor. What I have, as far as I can tell, is absolutely nothing where hops are concerned. It punches me in the teeth with how sweet it is. Again, maybe I am expecting too much... I am just the new guy after all. But I would still expect something noticeable. No matter how small.

 

[THESULLI]

Try using it as a base for a soup/chili/roast in a crockpot! Beer and hot peppers are my thing.

I'll be growing hops and Trinidad Scorpions.

I need to go eat something now. That instantly made me hungry... The girlfriend mad an awesome marinade with it the other day. I have never done Trinidad Scorpians but we did do Ghost peppers last year. Not as hot but still a punch to the face. This years garden will be more focused on usable high production vs 1 or 2 plants that are fun to grow but hurt my insides when I eat them haha.

The bigger the beer, the more critical it is to pitch a sufficient quantity of active, healthy yeast. Rehydrating dry yeast allows the cells to plump back up and prepares them to endure the osmotic shock of being pitched into high gravity wort. Rehydrating takes 20 minutes tops and costs nothing, why risk all the work, money and time you invest in brewing a batch?

That was my understanding. I came across a youtube video a month or so back that did an experiment on this. The guy is apparently a scientist and busted of some equipment to measure yeast viability for ryhydrated vs dry. He came to conclude that it was not necessary. Which is why I decided against it. It seems like wayyy more people think it is the way to go though. So I will give it a shot and see how it goes.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Let's be careful with 'water chemistry' - this is an extract+steep recipe.

I have not yet dipped my toes into the water chemistry pool... I have always used filtered water from the fridge and it has made awesome beers in the past.

With extract+steep recipes, there are two parts: 1) good source water, and 2) 'season to taste' with small amounts of CaCl or CaS)4. More information in "How to Brew" (4e) chapters 1 and 8.

Good source water: RO, distilled, or low in minerals; treat to remove water treatment plant chemicals.

'Season to taste': malty beer? add a small amount of CaCl; hoppy beer? add a small amount of CaSO4. Starting out, use 1/4 gram per gallon for 'small amount'.

Assume that the mineral composition of the DME/LME is different based on the brand.

 

[TheMadKing]

Sorry I should clarify... By no flavor, I mean literally nothing. No bittering, no aroma, no flavor. It's as if I didn't use hops at all.

So in a big sweet beer, bitterness is harder to pick out and with that recipe, you're not going to get much hop flavor at all, just bitterness.

I suspect that this is just too little bitterness in too much sugar to really have it pop.

If your hops were oxidized that would make the problem worse. And if you got oxygen in the beer on the cold side that will also make it worse. So this might just be a combination of issues working together

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Which is why I decided against it. It seems like wayyy more people think it is the way to go though. So I will give it a shot and see how it goes.

Definitely give rehydration a try. It's always good to be willing to experiment.

Just don't assume that the number of people writing strongly in favor of something is an indicator of how many people actually do it.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

@THESULLI : I see you're going all grain shortly.

This might sound weird but... I stopped [brewing with extract] tomorrow. That is when my Brewzilla v3.1 arrives!

 

[Deadalus]

Your attenuation was 77.5%. When I looked up that yeast, SafAle US-05, the attenuation is supposed to be 78-82%. Call it 80% and you may have missed dropping 2 points, on the high end (82%) ~4. Any idea of the temperature while fermenting and how long it went before you kegged it?

Nugget hops 12.5-14.5% AA ; Falconers 9.5 -12% AA. If fresh, you would have gotten a good amount of bitterness from these. I ran just some average numbers for you in the hop age tool of Beersmith3. You said refrigerator so I set the temp in the tool for 40F, and guessed maybe these were 2018 hops because you did have an issue, so I put 18 months. The AA dropped about 3% for both and based on the new AA values you lost about 30 IBUs. So perhaps a little bit of sweetness and a loss of bitterness. Then a five minute addition, depending on how you chilled it, you might have lost the aroma there. Sometimes I am a little slow getting my plate chiller ready and those extra minutes do count. Hops are sitting in near boiling wort.

Also it was a kit right? I'm not saying this happened but if the LHBS assembles it they might be putting that together to sell some things that might not sell well on their own...

So if you don't fix it and run out of ideas of what to do with it, beer kills slugs. Put a couple of bowls out in your garden if you have one, the slugs are starting to come out.

 

[jrgtr42]

This is an odd one - allother things notwithstanding, coming down from 1.080 to 1.018 is pretty good attenuations (I don't have my seat of the pants with me ,so I can't do that math...)
Edit: Deadalus did that math - with extract, that's a pretty good result - I've always ended up with less attenuation with extract than all-grain.
Certainly 2 oz of nugget at 60 should have gotten you bitterness, and 2 of Amarillo at 5 should have gotten at least some aroma. It's that 30 minute that throws me - Personally, I would move that to 10, or that to 5 and the4 Amarillo to flame out next time - 30 is sort of a no-mans land where a lot of flavor and aroma are blown off, and bitterness isn't as developed (so I've read...)
Silly question - you've tried this several times, no? Have you had anyting to drink before?
Also, what is the aroma of the beer? Is there anything there or is there something - Amarillo gives a citrus / piney aroma,IIRC.

 

[VikeMan]

Your attenuation was 77.5%. When I looked up that yeast, SafAle US-05, the attenuation is supposed to be 78-82%. Call it 80% and you may have missed dropping 2 points, on the high end (82%) ~4.

Published yeast attenuation ranges are fairly useless, IMO. The fermentability of the wort is important, sometimes more important, than the yeast strain.

 

[Deadalus]

Published yeast attenuation ranges are fairly useless, IMO. The fermentability of the wort is important, sometimes more important, than the yeast strain.

They can be a useful guide for diagnosis and also for planning recipes. Here, the OP used an expired packet and a fresher one. We know the OP's attenuation was almost in range. Not a lot of evidence to suggest the yeast wasn't working. Maybe a slightly different temperature regime could have pushed it into the range or simply call it good as it was real close. If it had been 65% we might be asking different questions.

 

[TheMadKing]

Definitely give rehydration a try. It's always good to be willing to experiment.

Just don't assume that the number of people writing strongly in favor of something is an indicator of how many people actually do it.

The manufacturer recommends against rehydrating, saying that it's not necessary, FWIW

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The manufacturer recommends against rehydrating, saying that it's not necessary, FWIW

The last time I looked at the US-05 product information sheet, they seemed to be comfortable with either pitching dry or reyhdrating - as they offer instructions for both techniques. There's a S-04 product information sheet from about 15 years ago in the "internet archives" that says pretty much the same thing (link available upon request).

So, with two data points, I'm willing to suggest that Fermentis, via their product information sheets, has been comfortable with either technique for over 15 years.

Some day, maybe the "consensus" of home brewers in forums will reach a similar comfort level.

 

[Yooper]

1 lb - Crystal 20L
1 lb - Carapils
2 oz - Nugget at 60 mins
2 oz - Falconers at 30 mins

This right here grabbed me as the reason for a sweet drink with little hops flavor.

That's WAY too much crystal malt. And four ounces of bittering hops will give you plenty of bitterness, depending on your boil size, but 0 hops flavor and aroma.

I may have missed it, but was this a full boil? If so, you'd have a ton of bitterness, but little in flavor or aroma other than that 2 ounces of amarillo.

Also, store your hops in the freezer in oxygen free packaging. That makes a world of difference.

Honestly, your recipe sucks. That's the problem. There are so many better recipe kits out there that the guy who put this together for you should be ashamed of himself. It sounds like someone throw things together to get a high OG but didn't balance the recipe with quality ingredients or with a goal in mind.

 

[Yooper]

Ahh gotcha, I thought maybe it was a partial mash with just the crystal malts.

No such thing as a partial mash with just crystal malts- there is no way to mash them without a base malt. But even then, it's too much crystal for a 5 gallon batch anyway.

 

[TheMadKing]

The last time I looked at the US-05 product information sheet, they seemed to be comfortable with either pitching dry or reyhdrating - as they offer instructions for both techniques. There's a S-04 product information sheet from about 15 years ago in the "internet archives" that says pretty much the same thing (link available upon request).

So, with two data points, I'm willing to suggest that Fermentis, via their product information sheets, has been comfortable with either technique for over 15 years.

Some day, maybe the "consensus" of home brewers in forums will reach a similar comfort level.

https://www.masterbrewerspodcast.com/093
Give this a listen, starting at 18:00 minutes in. The guys talking are scientists (or former scientists) for Fermentis

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Give this a listen, starting at 18:00 minutes in. The guys talking are scientists (or former scientists) for Fermentis

I follow MBA podcasts pretty closely, but listened to it again. They mention that pitching dry works well and the process is less complicated than rehydrating. That seems to confirm the S-04 product information sheet from 2004.

If you go back to replies #33, #34 & #36, the discussion was around how to ferment a bigger beer. People will, on occasion, claim they get better results when rehydrating dry yeast. So if someone is getting poor results when pitching dry into a high OG wort, it seems reasonable to give rehydrating a try.

 

[TheMadKing]

I follow MBA podcasts pretty closely, but listened to it again. They mention that pitching dry works well and the process is less complicated than rehydrating. That seems to confirm the S-04 product information sheet from 2004.

If you go back to replies #33, #34 & #36, the discussion was around how to ferment a bigger beer. People will, on occasion, claim they get better results when rehydrating dry yeast. So if someone is getting poor results when pitching dry into a high OG wort, it seems reasonable to give rehydrating a try.

Just like to point out that they also mention testing a variety of rehydrating media, including wort of various concentrations and temperatures and found no difference in yeast performance. I would think your effort and time might be better spent adding oxygen rather than rehydrating.

At worst its useless and a minor waste of time, and at best it helps, so I agree that it's not unreasonable to give it a shot. I would just think that a good yeast nutrient and some pure O2 might be better methods for boosting your fermentation health.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

... so I agree that it's not unreasonable to give it a shot.

Thank you.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I just did an American IPA 4 gallon batch with 1lb of 40L crystal, the rest 2-row. Turned out great, didn't taste super sweet, certainly not like Pepsi. I've also had batches of my NEIPAs finish pretty high like 1.020-1.022. Those also didn't taste sweet. Residual sugars don't really taste that sweet. Now, maybe your issue is the combination of the 2. I've never done an American IPA with crystal malts and have it finish that high.

In terms of lack of hop flavor and/or off-flavors, make sure your cold side practices are sound to avoid oxidation.

 

[stickyfinger]

Residual sugars don't really taste that sweet.

unless they are simple sugars that should have been taken care of by the yeast. then, they will taste sweet. i agree though in principle. I've made insanely high FG beers with high mash temps that don't taste sweet, or at least you would never guess they were that high of an FG.

you know, one thing I was also thinking is that some people just have a higher tolerance for sweet flavors. duh! i did a club brew a few years ago to make a belgian dark strong. my friend said his version was horribly sweet and he was going to dump it. his FG seemed fine. i got some of his beer and it tasted amazing to me. i think he was more confusing maltiness and caramel flavor with sweet (as he was really more of a light lager kind of guy at heart) and possibly he just has more of an aversion to any sweetness in a beer.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

you know, one thing I was also thinking is that some people just have a higher tolerance for sweet flavors. duh! i did a club brew a few years ago to make a belgian dark strong. my friend said his version was horribly sweet and he was going to dump it. his FG seemed fine. i got some of his beer and it tasted amazing to me. i think he was more confusing maltiness and caramel flavor with sweet (as he was really more of a light lager kind of guy at heart) and possibly he just has more of an aversion to any sweetness in a beer.

^^^ THIS ^^^

Some people like their beers "sweeter", or "less hoppy", or "If I wanted to a drink that tastes like grapefruit juice, I'd order grapefruit juice".

There's a reference to a "brewing science" article in The New IPA that "supports" this (IIRC, it's in the first couple paragraphs of chapter 5).

 

[VirginiaHops1]

unless they are simple sugars that should have been taken care of by the yeast. then, they will taste sweet. i agree though in principle. I've made insanely high FG beers with high mash temps that don't taste sweet, or at least you would never guess they were that high of an FG.

you know, one thing I was also thinking is that some people just have a higher tolerance for sweet flavors. duh! i did a club brew a few years ago to make a belgian dark strong. my friend said his version was horribly sweet and he was going to dump it. his FG seemed fine. i got some of his beer and it tasted amazing to me. i think he was more confusing maltiness and caramel flavor with sweet (as he was really more of a light lager kind of guy at heart) and possibly he just has more of an aversion to any sweetness in a beer.

Sounds like you agree in more than just principle if you've actually seen it happen, in practice. My handful of hazy IPAs that finished at or above 1.020 weren't any sweeter than my beers that finish at 1.012. So maybe there is a way to **** it up and have a beer that tastes like Pepsi from residual sugars but I sure haven't seen it.