50a panel vs 30a electric brewery

[akroessler]

hello brewers!
I'm making the switch from gas to electric (and 10g to 20g) and I have some questions for anyone that is pure electric and uses the electricbrewery panels or similar versions thereof.

Currently I have a Brutus 10, natural gas and semi automated (full panel with direct fire recirc) and I get an average of 85-90% efficiency. I feel as if I use both my HLT and BK burners at the same time very frequently during a brew day for either sparge water, heating up cleaning water etc. My question is if I should get the 50a dual active element panel or stick with a 30a for single active element at a time.

Want to know if anyone got the single active and regrets it or if the one element at a time really isn't a big deal and they wouldn't change it. I should also add that I do not plan on getting a bigger system after this. This will be the *end all* so to speak.

 

[don_bran321]

hello brewers!
I'm making the switch from gas to electric (and 10g to 20g) and I have some questions for anyone that is pure electric and uses the electricbrewery panels or similar versions thereof.

Currently I have a Brutus 10, natural gas and semi automated (full panel with direct fire recirc) and I get an average of 85-90% efficiency. I feel as if I use both my HLT and BK burners at the same time very frequently during a brew day for either sparge water, heating up cleaning water etc. My question is if I should get the 50a dual active element panel or stick with a 30a for single active element at a time.

Want to know if anyone got the single active and regrets it or if the one element at a time really isn't a big deal and they wouldn't change it. I should also add that I do not plan on getting a bigger system after this. This will be the *end all* so to speak.

I have a 30A one element at a time system and I absolutely love it. It was rediculously cheaper $330 as opposed to $2500 and it works great. The only thing I have to do is switch the Element wires from HLT to BK. Totally worth the savings in my opinion and the temp control is phenomenal.

 

[spittybug]

I have an element in the HLT and the BK but only connect one at a time to the controller. I deliberately did this so that I had to plug in the right element into the box as a safety (dry fire) check. I run craftbeer Pi on a touchscreen and I can still use different logic control for each vessel despite them sharing a single outlet.

 

[Drumminguy81]

Dual element is the way to go. You can shave a lot of time off your brew day being able to run both at once. Imo the only reason to go with a 30a is for biab or if you are limited to a 30a service.

 

[jjjjfrench]

I have the 50a and am really happy I went that route. That said, I could probably get by with a single element just fine. I like to heat my HLT while I heat my strike water in the brew kettle. In practice this probably doesn't save me too much time, because I generally let my mash sit for 15 min before I start recirc. Also, while i'm boiling in the kettle, I usually heat water in the HLT which I then use to sanitize my plate chiller. I could use sanitizing solution for that, but I try to keep chemicals out of my chiller.
So...for my purpose, the 50a is great, but if I did things differently, the 30a would be just fine; and with a bigger element (5500W vs 4500W), a 30a might even be better....

-J

 

[akroessler]

this is all really good info guys i appreciate the quick replies. I think Im still going to shoot for the dual element, need to talk with my electrician to make sure my house can support a bigger 50a right now, ive got an unused 40a for an old electric dryer just going to change the breaker/wire/plug so hopefully the 10a more wont cause any issues with my panel.

 

[augiedoggy]

I have a 30a setup as well... 5500w bk, 4500w hlt and 1800w 240v rims (cartridge heater). For me 50a was not a good option because I only have a 100a main service and a hot tub and reef tank running off that already. Plus the cost difference to run 6awg up my walls into my attic down into the spare room I use for brewing would have been high and it would have been a lot more work. 6 awg sucks to snake up walls and costs much more than 10awg.
I can run my 1800w rims at the same time as my hlt element (for heating sparge water while recirculation my mash or step mashing) along with my panel and pumps (24v dc pumps) and I really dont have a desire to heat up cleanup water while boiling in the BK I usually just rinse everything with water and then CIP with pbw before brewing again. the bk I wash in the sink.

All that said if 50a was more convenient for me I would have done it. currently I do have to shut off me 240v chiller that controls temps in my conicals while brewing.

Keep in mind you can still build a dual or even triple element control panel for use with 30a, you just use a selector switch to only allow one to be on at a time.

 

[jekeane]

For 20 gallon batches I would want a 50a panel.

I have a 30a panel and mostly do 6 gallon batches. When I do a 12 gallon batch there is a noticeable difference In time.

If you are building or buying a panel from a place like ebrewsupply the panel cost isn’t that different.

The home wiring cost of 30a vs 50a, as mentioned above, does need to be accounted for.

 

[CanAm]

I built a 30 amp panel for my keggle RIMS system. It was good for single batches. But then started doing back to back batches and needed two elements running concurrently.

I didn’t want rewire my existing panel so made a second controller for the boil kettle with an Auber EZ Boil. Ran a separate 30 amp circuit for it.

Not the most economical option but it was easier. And bonus if something happens to one controller I’ve got another to use to finish the brew day.

If it was me I’d go for two elements if practical.

 

[MX1]

I have a 30a and have no issues. Done anywhere from 5-12 gallon batches. When I ran a 3 kettle HERMS I always had hot water for cleaning during the boil. When I went to my current system a Brutus 20 style, or eRims/BIAB, I just catch the warm water out of my plate chiller.

50a service offers future flexibility, and you can still run a 30a controller on it

MX1

 

[Toejam792]

I would go with 50a. Its a lot easier to not use all the power you have than it is to add it later. It also saves a lot of time on days when you want to make two batches.

 

[akroessler]

Solid input gents. All valid concerns and points of view. Like I mentioned this will be the last build I do, so 50a is probably my best bet, if It turns out my panel can't support the 50, all I will do is only use one element at a time and problem is fixed, and when I move in a few years I can just have the flexibility of my dual element then. The cost difference is about 200$ panel wise(DIY kits from theelectricbrewery) and then whatever my new wiring will cost, I'll expect a few hundred there. I bought two 5500w elements to support them. So in a cost point of view it's more advantageous to spend the 500~ ish for a panel I'll never need to replace, at least IMO.

I am also on a 100a main panel currently, however 75% of my house is ran on natural gas. (NG stove, water heater, furnace etc) the only 'big' item is my AC. So I don't believe my power draw is very significant, and I don't have hot tubs or fancy stuff like that.

As far as wiring goes, my panel is in my basement and I brew in my basement already, it would be maybe 20-25ft of wire to lay down, and it would all be in my exposed joists so no major work for that.

 

[Sparkncode]

I went with a 32A 3v eherms setup.
My house only has 230V 63A incomming so that was a limitation. I may fix that when i build a new garage in a year or two.

I run a 4.5kw element in both my HLT and BK and wired my panel so both can be on at once so the operator has to think but if both are turned on a 32A breaker in my panel should trip. The power meter on my panel makes it obvious how much power is being drawn.

I use the fixed PWM duty cycle mode on my PID to effectivly run one element at half power and have never tripped a breaker doing it. It does peak at 40A for 0.5second bursts but breakers work on averages unless the overload is significant they wont trip.

I use this mode so i can heat some water for cleaning during the boil etc.

I even get away with using 2.5mm^2 flex to feed my panel because i used 105C rated wire which does run warm and drop a few volts but for a temporary setup its fine until i upgrade. It was way cheaper than fatter wire to get fron just below my switchboard to out on my deck.

Note: this might not meet wireing rules in your country. To me my panel is an appliance and I know the outlet for it has 4mm^2 wire into my houses switchboard so I'm not risking anything there. I also make sure my 2.5mm^2 power cord is fully uncoiled and not covered by anything so it can cool as it will run warm.

 

[dunnry]

I have the 30 amp electric brewery (Kal Clone). It was the only option when I bought it. In retrospect, I would likely only have used the 50 amp setup once or twice in 7+ yrs, so I am happy with my choice. I don't do back to back batches and my only interest would really be in doing a partigyle style boil with two pots.

That being said, if you get 50 amp, maybe it will be motivation to do multiple turns on your setup.

 

[davealicious]

I run 50A sub panel to two 30A breakers (GASP!) as each of my elements draw 22A. I really enjoy being able to get my dough in water heated in the BK at the same time as heating my HLT, I find this cuts the start up time to brew significantly as the boilermaker elements seem to take forever to heat 30 gallons at a time.

obviously this is a bigger issue with bigger batch brewing. i'm heating almost 20 gallons in my hlt and whatever quantity of dough in water in my BK. Trying to heat 30 gallons of water in one vessel with one element would take roughly twice as long. That being said, I guess i've never timed it?

 

[akroessler]

I run 50A sub panel to two 30A breakers (GASP!) as each of my elements draw 22A. I really enjoy being able to get my dough in water heated in the BK at the same time as heating my HLT, I find this cuts the start up time to brew significantly as the boilermaker elements seem to take forever to heat 30 gallons at a time.

That is exactly what i do currently with my NG, i recirculate my HLT and MT at same time (heats up my insulation for the mash as well) cuts my time down considerably, this is one of the main reasons behind my wanting a dual active element setup.

 

[LarMoeCur]

You my friend have a tough decision to make. It took me a lot of time and research to decide when I built my brewery. The cost of building a 50a panel is not very much more than cost of a 30a panel. Now buying a pre-built panel can run you quite a bit more cash for the upgraded amperage.

I ended up going the 50a route. The final straw for me was time. Heating 30 gallons of water with one element takes a lot of time. Sparging 18 gallons of wort takes a lot of time. Meanwhile the wort in the boil kettle is cooling. Reheating 18 gallons of 100 degree wort takes time.

With my 50a panel, I can heat 15 gallons in two kettles cutting my prep time. Secondly, I can start my boil kettle as soon as the element is covered by wort and still keep my sparge water at the correct temperature. By the time my 18 gallons of wort is in the kettle; it’s just a few degrees away from boiling. I’ve been known to brew two batches in one and boy does it save time doing back to back batches.

 

[akroessler]

You my friend have a tough decision to make. It took me a lot of time and research to decide when I built my brewery. The cost of building a 50a panel is not very much more than cost of a 30a panel. Now buying a pre-built panel can run you quite a bit more cash for the upgraded amperage.

I ended up going the 50a route. The final straw for me was time. Heating 30 gallons of water with one element takes a lot of time. Sparging 18 gallons of wort takes a lot of time. Meanwhile the wort in the boil kettle is cooling. Reheating 18 gallons of 100 degree wort takes time.

With my 50a panel, I can heat 15 gallons in two kettles cutting my prep time. Secondly, I can start my boil kettle as soon as the element is covered by wort and still keep my sparge water at the correct temperature. By the time my 18 gallons of wort is in the kettle; it’s just a few degrees away from boiling. I’ve been known to brew two batches in one and boy does it save time doing back to back batches.

thanks for the input! after this thread im pretty set on the 50a panel. the pros of obvious time gains outweighs the small con of a couple hundred $ more upfront, after all this will be the biggest i build so no need for upgrade after this.

 

[davealicious]

Definitely do some research on the best way of getting whatever breakers and panels and such you need. I was able to buy a "spa panel" with a 50a GFCI breaker for cheaper than I could buy a GFCI breaker by itself (110 for a breaker or 60 for the spa panel!) so my sub panel is fed by GFCI, allowing me to use 2 cheap 30a breakers to feed each element. While I'm not sure this is up to code, I was told it was safe, so i went with it.

 

[akroessler]

Definitely do some research on the best way of getting whatever breakers and panels and such you need. I was able to buy a "spa panel" with a 50a GFCI breaker for cheaper than I could buy a GFCI breaker by itself (110 for a breaker or 60 for the spa panel!) so my sub panel is fed by GFCI, allowing me to use 2 cheap 30a breakers to feed each element. While I'm not sure this is up to code, I was told it was safe, so i went with it.

Oh wow! That is a noticeable difference. I’ll have to see what my electrician says and then if that’s the case I will try that avenue.

 

[augiedoggy]

yes I also use a 50A spa panel in my brew room and a regular 30a breaker as the main in the main panel... this is completely safe and the gfci function still works as it would in a spa when the hot tub isnt drawing a full 40a amps if all the pumps and heaters werent running at once.. (think about it) what good would it be if it only worked at its peak rating? its more convenient having a disconnect switch in my brew room as well.