4 day old Wheat beer on tap! - without lots of yeast!

[Starderup]

What kind of yeast did you use? The reason I'm asking is that I did my first and only wheat about 7 weeks ago, and without anything other than a Pail Ale bucket and bottles, got a beautiful clear wheat in 10 days.
We used a typical 60/40 mix of 2-row and wheat, along with rice hulls. .5 oz of Halletauer at 60 and at 5 minutes. Wyeast 1010 American Wheat ale. When I bottled it after two weeks in the primary, I thought it was going to be a failure, because it was SO cloudy, but I had already got everything going. After 10 days, I looked at one, and it was about like you expect for a wheat. Within a few more days, if you poured it carefully, practically no haze. Clear beer. The last one was consumed on the 15th. I never really was a big fan of wheat beers, but I sure am now. This weekend, I'm going to do another one with captured SN Kellerwies yeast. This time, though, it will sit in the primary three to four weeks.

 

[pjj2ba]

What do you think about one of these bags for a filter, say the 5 micron one (I think yeast cells are roughly 5-10 microns).

http://www.filtersfast.com/Bag-Filters-cat.asp

Hmmmmm, No. probably not. I'd be afraid you'd lose too much beer. You want to keep the volume as small as possible, but allow room for the yeast to grow. I'd be afraid with a filter like those, you'll end up with a bunch of liquid inside, and then with all of the yeast in there, when you lift it up, it will take forever to drain.

With the membrane I'm using water movement (net) is very slow.

 

[pjj2ba]

What kind of yeast did you use? The reason I'm asking is that I did my first and only wheat about 7 weeks ago, and without anything other than a Pail Ale bucket and bottles, got a beautiful clear wheat in 10 days.
We used a typical 60/40 mix of 2-row and wheat, along with rice hulls. .5 oz of Halletauer at 60 and at 5 minutes. Wyeast 1010 American Wheat ale.

I used Safale 05, going American style. I believe American wheat yeast are more flocculant than their European counterparts. I like my wheat beers to taste more of wheat, than of yeast. I find many commercial wheat beers (European and American) to be just the opposite

One of my favorite wheat beers of all time was from the original Frankenmuth brewery in the late '80s - early 90's (now closed). They had a filtered wheat (kristal) that was oh so refreshing.

 

[Rushis]

I've got it set up again. Brewed it on Sunday and will serve it at the pig roast on Sat. OG = 1.030. This time I've got 5 gal. in a keg. 5 psi relief valve in place. I also have an extra 2 gal. in a 3 gal glass carboy so I can watch - plus no pressure to worry about. I'll post some pictures of the carboy once things get going. The 3 gal batch is going to be fermented in a typical fermentation schedule, not a fast one.

How much yeast are you loading the dialysis tubing with?

 

[pjj2ba]

The first version I used a whole packet of dry yeast for just under 2 gal. I was looking for speed in this case.

For the current 5 gal. one I made a 500 ml starter and decanted most of the liquid.

For the current 2 gal. one, I had hoped to simply lift the tube out and put it in fresh wort. Since my tube burst, I quick set up another tubing and put it on a funnel, like a condom with a large reservoir tip, and then held the 3 gal keg over it and waited for the sludge to drain in. I probably put more yeast in this, than in for the 5 gal. batch - of course the yeast in the starter were primed ready to go and hadn't been sitting in my fridge for a week like the stuff in the keg.

 

[Rushis]

Any volume estimates of a thick slurry? I am curious as to how much yeast the dialysis tubing can actually handle before bursting.

 

[pjj2ba]

Any volume estimates of a thick slurry? I am curious as to how much yeast the dialysis tubing can actually handle before bursting.

I allowed plenty of room for yeast expansion in the tubing. I set up about 2.5 ft of tubing. I added probably 75 ml of sludge to the tubing. One thing that I can see now, is I should have added some extra liquid (or a weight) to the tubing to help weigh it down a bit. Right now it is mostly sitting on the surface, and slowly the tube is filling with gas. I suspect this is not happening as much with the version under 5 psi pressure (and had more liquid at set up).

 

[pjj2ba]

Update on the current batches.

Well neither of the two batches are fermenting as fast as the first one - and I think I know why - not enough liquid in the tubing.

With the batch going in the 3 gal carboy, I can see that quite a bit of CO2 has built up and because I just put a thick slurry in the tubing, it is mostly floating on the surface. I was assuming the same was going on in the 5 gal carboy as I used a starter with a bunch of the liquid decanted off.

So, I went home for Lunch today and brought some sterile water with me. I opened up the keg, and this one wasn't floating quite as bad, partly because it was wrapped around the dip tube. I put some gloves on, and pulled the tubing out. LOTS of air, not much liquid, and some big gloppy clumps of yeast - not so good for fermentation. I cut an end off and using a funnel, filled the tubing about 2/3 full with the water. I retied it, sloshed it back and forth in the tubing to mix the yeast up and put it back in. It sank nicely in the beer. I suspect it will take off now - It had better, I plan to tap this in 2 more days.

Another thing I noticed is that it appears as though a little bit of yeast can make it out through the knots. I tied 3 knots at each end. At one end, the tubing between the knots was full of gas, and I could see some yeast growing on the tubing, PAST all of the knots. I suspect enough pressure is building up to push some yeast through the knots????? It wasn't much, but it was some

 

[bsdx]

This might be an interesting way to use multiple yeast strains in one beer, you could switch the tubes out during fermentation or maybe use multiple tubes at the same time to help avoid one yeast out-competing the other?

 

[klyph]

I'm very interested to know if there is a cost effective material that those of us not in the medical field could use.

 

[passedpawn]

I'm very interested to know if there is a cost effective material that those of us not in the medical field could use.

Why don't you give this a try and let me know.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/4-day-old-wheat-beer-tap-without-lots-yeast-180979/#post2122458

It was dismissed fairly quickly, above, but I still think it has merit.

 

[klyph]

Your link just takes me to page one of the thread for some reason. Are you referring to the sausage casing?

 

[Rushis]

What do you think about one of these bags for a filter, say the 5 micron one (I think yeast cells are roughly 5-10 microns).

http://www.filtersfast.com/Bag-Filters-cat.asp

It's a step in a similar direction but the 5 micron filter bag won't cut it. Yeast, in particular Saccharomyces cerevisiae, are 3-5 microns. Here is a sales brochure from Beckman Coulter touting their cell counters.

Enumeration and Size Distribution of Yeast Cells in the Brewing Industry

 

[passedpawn]

It's a step in a similar direction but the 5 micron filter bag won't cut it. Yeast, in particular Saccharomyces cerevisiae, are 3-5 microns. Here is a sales brochure from Beckman Coulter touting their cell counters.

Enumeration and Size Distribution of Yeast Cells in the Brewing Industry

So there's the 1 micron bag...

 

[PseudoChef]

I just want to make sure that you are rinsing the dialysis tubing extremely thoroughly before you are putting it into your beer. They are typically packed in a sodium azide solution, which is extremely toxic.

 

[pjj2ba]

I just want to make sure that you are rinsing the dialysis tubing extremely thoroughly before you are putting it into your beer. They are typically packed in a sodium azide solution, which is extremely toxic.

The stuff I have is dry and in a roll, like tape. I'd does get a good rinse anyway. Just like sausage casings, it needs a good soak to make working with it easier

 

[pjj2ba]

OK, I served it up at our pig roast. I'd say it is interesting, definitely has potential, but needs more work. It does have a slight metallic taste to it that is annoying. I'm not sure where that came from - yet. All in all, for a 2.5% beer it has a decent amount of flavor. It was maybe just the slightest bit watery tasting. I think it would have been better ice cold (or maybe warmer?)

I ended up letting it ferment until Sat. morning (6 days total), then put it in my beer fridge for a couple hours, then it was taken out, put on ice and force carbed and put on tap.

I think I was a bit lucky with the first batch. You definitely need to have enough liquid in the tubing to help keep it submerged, that and maybe add a weight to keep it submerged. I think this might work best in a keg, as the tall narrow configuration will help keep it submerged more to allow better diffusion. I had problems with the keg I used for this batch as it did not seal well at low pressure, so it ended up hissing and releasing CO2 from around the lid as opposed to out of my 5 psi relief valve.

I'll taste it warm tonight and see how it is, and then I'll put it on tap in my kegerator and well see what happens over the next couple weeks until it is kicked.

I'll definitely be messing around with this some more.

 

[gallo_pug]

Any pics yet?

 

[COLObrewer]

This is very interesting, has anyone tried the fibrous sausage casings yet? I think I have some leftovers that I could try. I'm not sure if tying with hog rings would provide a good enough seal to keep all the yeast from migrating, but maybe if it is folded carefully, then tied, or double hog ringed, etc.

They would have to be very tight for the salt water test to work correctly also.

 

[Reno_eNVy]

Okay, I may be going out on a limb here (more like a cracked, dangling limb swaying in the wind) but are there any macronutrients/macromolecules that the yeast could be cut off from that aren't permeable to the dialysis tubing? Ya know, some trace elements that are important to yeast function that aren't being used thus leaving behind off-flavors you wouldn't normally find in a traditionally fermented beer.

Just a thought... probably a dumb one

 

[klyph]

I would imagine anything the yeast feed on would be smaller than the yeast themselves.

 

[IslandMike]

They are typically packed in a sodium azide solution, which is extremely toxic.

Maybe that is the weird taste you're getting?

 

[pjj2ba]

Maybe that is the weird taste you're getting?

No, the first test batch didn't have it - same tubing. I've got the 2 gal batch still in the carboy - with a different yeast. When this is ready it will let me figure out if it was something about the wort (both taste metallic) or something about the fermentor and/or yeast (carboy version is clean).

In terms of micro/macronutrients, this shouldn't be an issue. I think the size cut off for the tubing is ~10,000 Daltons, so small proteins and dextrins should be able to move in or out. Now there maybe be some proteases secreted by the yeast that won't get out so there may be some bigger proteins in the beer versus a conventional ferment.

No pics yet. I did take some, just no time to upload yet. I've been swamped at work and at home.

 

[RDWHAHB]

How about some glass beads in the tube to keep it from floating.

 

[ThreeDogsNE]

To the OP: I may have missed this, but where did you get the pressure relief valves that are set at so low a pressure?

To the community: The sodium azide preservative for the tubing is a little off-putting. My chemistry is really stale, but I wouldn't expect this inorganic salt to bind to the tubing, would it? I would think that a few rinses should get this down to pretty trivial concentrations. We seem to have quite a representation of engineers on this site. Can someone speak to this with authority?

 

[TheWeeb]

I thought I would jump in here after reading the couple of entries about the use of alginate to encase the yeast. One of my other hobbies that at one point I took very seriously is "lifecasting." This involves creating very detailed sculptures from casts made directly off the human body (http://jean-paulart.com/lifecasting.htm). I use alginate in the first layer of these molds to gain as much detail - fingerprint detail - as possible.

I have several pounds of alginate on hand and would like to use it to contribute to this effort if it would be of value.

I am an new to homebrewing, extract so far, and have an open primary. What I am thinking is this:

I create a 500 ml starter, decant, then add sanitized water back to create a liquid volume needed to mix with the powdered alginate.

The aginate would be molded into a cone shape using a large funnel. I think a cone would allow good surface area for the exchange to take place.

This cone of encased yeast would be un molded once "set" and placed upside down on the bottom of the fermentor. The wort would of course be racked on top of it.

Monitoring fermentation character and progress as well as what is left behind would be done.

Thoughts?

 

[klyph]

How are you going to secure the cone to the bottom of the primary, with it full of yeast?

Edit, nevermind, I see you said encased cone.

 

[GNBrews]

I thought I would jump in here after reading the couple of entries about the use of alginate to encase the yeast. One of my other hobbies that at one point I took very seriously is "lifecasting." This involves creating very detailed sculptures from casts made directly off the human body (http://jean-paulart.com/lifecasting.htm). I use alginate in the first layer of these molds to gain as much detail - fingerprint detail - as possible.

I have several pounds of alginate on hand and would like to use it to contribute to this effort if it would be of value.

I am an new to homebrewing, extract so far, and have an open primary. What I am thinking is this:

I create a 500 ml starter, decant, then add sanitized water back to create a liquid volume needed to mix with the powdered alginate.

The aginate would be molded into a cone shape using a large funnel. I think a cone would allow good surface area for the exchange to take place.

This cone of encased yeast would be un molded once "set" and placed upside down on the bottom of the fermentor. The wort would of course be racked on top of it.

Monitoring fermentation character and progress as well as what is left behind would be done.

Thoughts?

You've got the right idea, but I think it's even easier than that. The commercial guys mix the yeast in the sodium alginate solution, then drip the alginate/yeast solution into a solution of calcium chloride to form little BB's. The yeast are then put into a tube (like a bazooka screen or similar) made of stainless steel (nylon window screen would probably work just as well). A simple dripper could be made from an inverted bottle with a hole in the cap, and a small hole in the bottle to relieve the vacuum.

Calcium chloride is a fairly common brewing salt, so it should be easy to find (and you don't need much).

http://www.eurovolvox.org/Protocols/PDFs/ImmobilisedYeast2.1_UK_eng.pdf