3500W, 4500W or 5500W

[bmarley5780]

Heya Pol;

Been researchin myself and here’s something I found on wortomatic that seems to help your question #1.

Wort-O-Matic: Articles


“Now on to the shuck and jive, as Papazian so annoyingly puts it. I wanted the main power to come from a 240V line, but I also had the pumps and the PID control running off of 110V. That meant splitting off a separate 110V line and plug, or running the 240V main thru a contactor. I opted for the contactor, as it’s also a safety valve. A contactor is basically a giant switch. Shut the power at the breaker or GFI and the contactor snaps closed, killing all power to the system. In the event something goes haywire, you won’t be killed. The contactor has a 240V pass-thru AND a 110V shunt so I could split off a powered line to my pumps and PID control., Here’s my Square-D. About $40 from eBay”

 

[lustreking]

Talk to me about timer control circuits... I can solder... so, where do I get a parts list to look at, instructions etc. I see the 40A SSR is $20 and so is the heat sink, I think... that part I understand. If I can build something that will control a duty cycle, that is aweome, I do not NEED to have a PID for temp reasons in the BK... but I need to control duty cycle in a variable manner.

CD's New Electric Wort Boiler has a pretty simple controller circuit.

 

[CodeRage]

You can do it with 1 240v run. You will how ever have to run 4 wires from your power source. Line 1, Line 2, Neutral, and Ground.
Run this to a Nema 4x type enclosure/breaker box mounted on your brew rig. Put 2 110 GFCI breakers and a 220 GFCI jacuzzi breaker in the breaker box.
Run your power from those. You dont need a transformer to go from 220 to 110. Voltage from Leg 1 to Leg 2 is 220, and Line 1 or Line 2 to Neutral is 110.
You cant run power from a 220 GFCI and then split it into 110 because the current returning through the neutral will cause the GFCI to pop. So all of the breakers need to be wired in parallel.

You can get alot of your stuff from automation direct. I do suggest that you do not use switches alone to carry the current to the elements. You want to use solid state relays. Use the switches to energize the relays. Switching that much current through mechanical contacts can cause them to weld together. unless you are going to use large motor starters which are loud and expensive. If you plan to modulate the control you will DEFINITELY want to go solid state.
If you get the right PID controller they usually have a manual mode that you can t set the modulation to. I'll get more details later after work. You do have other options for duty cycle control.

 

[The Pol]

Okay, so a PID it is (I cannot read any of those diagrams), I am not an electrical engineer.

 

[bmarley5780]

-PID-

Dual Digital F/C PID Temperature Control Controller - eBay (item 250332481791 end time Dec-02-08 19:30:56 PST)

 

[SenorWanderer]

sorry to go backwards a bit, but i wanted to clarify some points that were made.

back up in post #9, Gregredic mentioned using "the guts out of a stove" to control the element. Virtuous responded in the next post that the oven controller wouldn't work, but i don't think he meant the oven controller, i think he meant the controller for an electric stove top element. isn't this a rheostat? and would this work for Pol's boil kettle application? it seems to me that if you can find a rheostat that can handle the wattage that this would be the most elegant design. throttle it up all the way to get boiling and then turn down to maintain the boil. so, can you use an old one from an electric stove? if not, do they exist in a form that can handle a 3500, 4500, 5500 watt 240v element? lrr81765 above mentioned that Pol found one for $77. where?? again, sorry for jumping in to the middle of this, if any one can point me in the right direction of posts that answer my questions, by all means do so, i just haven't found them in my searches (like that's a big surprise!)

 

[The Pol]

I really dont think that I can accomplish building an E-keggle... I can fly a plane, but this stuff is way out of my league. Wiring a PID, to an SSR and programming it to modulate duty cycles etc... what the heck.

 

[The Pol]

If you get the right PID controller they usually have a manual mode that you can t set the modulation to. I'll get more details later after work. You do have other options for duty cycle control.

Yeah, in the BK duty cycle is all I really want... let me know my options, in case I decide to actually do this.

 

[bmarley5780]

Seems that this hight speed coffee urn is pretty much what were looking to do

General Description
This urn is an automatic, push button operated, volume brewing unit. It consists of a nonpressure
vented water compartment of large capacity into which two stainless steel coffee
liners are inserted. Also installed within this water compartment are electric immersion
heaters thermostatically controlled through a contactor relay, to keep the water always at
the desired temperature. Measurement of water quantity sprayed over coffee is by push
button start, electric reset timer, timing a constant water flow rate to the spray nozzle.


grindmaster.com/literature/operatorsmanual/87710E Operation Manual.pdf

 

[bmarley5780]

Here's a very good wiring diagram....

Credit goes to someone else tho...

 

[bmarley5780]

Ha! That PDF of the coffe urn even has a wiring diagram that includes a contactor...

 

[CodeRage]

Regarding the rehostat question. Stove top elements run around 1500W. A 3500W+ element would roast that rheostat. To find a rheostat the would support that kind of power would be very expensive, not to mention very inefficient. For small 1500W Water Heater elements it's probably not a bad idea. Not the way I would do it though. The nice thing with relays or SSRs is you can keep all of the high voltage high current stuff tucked away safely and then use low voltage low current for all of your interface controls. GFCIs should make this moot but I always prefer to make the system as safe as possible. I'm not bagging on any one. I admire resourcefullness via re-puroposing and encourage it. Electricity can be a cruel bitch when you are working with this kind of power so caution should supersede thrift. I don't want to see any one get hurt

 

[The Pol]

Even a 1500W rheostat is like 100-200 bucks. Then, you will have to have what 3 of them for a 7.5 gallon boil

 

[stevehaun]

Virtuous:
"You cant run power from a 220 GFCI and then split it into 110 because the current returning through the neutral will cause the GFCI to pop. So all of the breakers need to be wired in parallel."

This is exactly how my brewery is set up. I have one 50 amp, 240 VAC GFI breaker in my load center. I run the power thru a single (very large) power cord to an enclosure on my brewframe. I have power distribution block for my 2 hot limbs and my neutral limb. I have a separate grounding block. I run my two 4500 watt elements on 240 VAC and my pump and PID on 120VAC (from one of the hot limbs). I have used it for two seasons and never tripped the GFI. I think this is way any appliance that uses both 240 VAC and 120 VAC (dryer or stove) is wired.

Pol:
I use a PID and SSR to control the elements in my BK. I simply put it in manual mode at 100% power until the boil starts and then ramp back the % power until I can maintain a nice rolling boil.

 

[The Pol]

SO, do you have 3 distribution blocks? 1 for each HOT leg and 1 for the neutrals? Then you simply run both hot legs to run the elements, and ONE leg to run the 120v pumps etc?

 

[sigmund]

Regarding the rehostat question. Stove top elements run around 1500W. A 3500W+ element would roast that rheostat.

Actually, stove top elements run higher than that and the infinite heat switches (not my name for them) that are used to control them are usually rated for 15 amps which would control a 3500 watt element.

Universal infinite heat switch

 

[lustreking]

Actually, stove top elements run higher than that and the infinite heat switches (not my name for them) that are used to control them are usually rated for 15 amps which would control a 3500 watt element.

Universal infinite heat switch

I'm not entirely sure how an infinite switch works, but could I use one from a stove to control a 1500W 120V element?

 

[stevehaun]

Pol:
I do have a 3 pole power distribution block. Each pole accepts one line and can then distribute to 6 different lines. You can buy many different combinations. See below:

http://www.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/4ae36753-c01a-49dd-bbc8-0beb365c0869.pdf

My power cord has 4 wires - 2 hot (red & black), 1 neutral (white) and ground (green). The power cord enters the enclosure and the 2 hots and neutral wires are hooked up to my 3 pole power distribution block. The ground wire hooks up to a separate grounding block. From the power distribution block, I then "distribute" wires as needed. For 240 VAC elements I run two hots. For the 120 VAC components such as my pump and PID, I run one hot and a neutral. Everything that can possibly be grounded, is grounded.

 

[SenorWanderer]

Pol:
I use a PID and SSR to control the elements in my BK. I simply put it in manual mode at 100% power until the boil starts and then ramp back the % power until I can maintain a nice rolling boil.

i didn't know that a PID would function like that. now i understand why it's the clear choice for this application!

 

[brewjunky]

3500 watt would be the best because 4500 will over boil 10 gallons with out a PID.

I would even go 3000 watts.

Thats if your running 240v

 

[The Pol]

Pol:
I do have a 3 pole power distribution block. Each pole accepts one line and can then distribute to 6 different lines. You can buy many different combinations. See below:

http://www.cooperbussmann.com/pdf/4ae36753-c01a-49dd-bbc8-0beb365c0869.pdf

My power cord has 4 wires - 2 hot (red & black), 1 neutral (white) and ground (green). The power cord enters the enclosure and the 2 hots and neutral wires are hooked up to my 3 pole power distribution block. The ground wire hooks up to a separate grounding block. From the power distribution block, I then "distribute" wires as needed. For 240 VAC elements I run two hots. For the 120 VAC components such as my pump and PID, I run one hot and a neutral. Everything that can possibly be grounded, is grounded.

That is sweet, that I can understand. I have been drawing up how I would divide my juice using distribution blocks.

Tell me, when using a PID and SSR for the 6500W element, will it go like this....

(2) hots running to the SSR and out to the element
(1) hot and (1) neutral running to the PID for control power
??????

 

[bakins]

(2) hots running to the SSR and out to the element
(1) hot and (1) neutral running to the PID for control power
??????

The way mine is wired is:
Subpanel:
Circuit #1 30A 240V - 1 hot to element, 1 hot to ssr. (element and pot grounded, of course). I use a DPST (dual pole, single throw) that can open/close both hots if needed. Quick boil-over protection, done with that pot, etc.
Circuit #2 - same as #1 to another pot.
Circuit #3 - 15A 120V - powers PID's (1 hot, 1 neutral) pumps etc.

Study. alot. I had just wired my basement (with a little guidance) that involved some 240V stuff. I read for about 2 months before I did it. (First task was adding a subpanel - hardest part was my first task).

It's not hard, you just need to be doubly sure about it.

Here's a thread with a good diagram:

My electric sculpture plans.. please help - BrewBoard

 

[The Pol]

This is all helping A LOT! I was unsure as to how power was routed to the SSR and element.
I am installing a single throw, dual pole 40A breaker... Looks like I will be using a low density 5500W element as I cannot find a 6500W that is low density. Meaning that I can get by with the 25A SSR and heat sink.
Using the distribution block also makes the wiring inside the box much easier.

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Pol - go with the 40A SSR. It is very little extra.

That 25A will be at 85% of max, generating a lot of heat. Heat is not a friend to an SSR.

 

[The Pol]

Pol - go with the 40A SSR. It is very little extra.

That 25A will be at 85% of max, generating a lot of heat. Heat is not a friend to an SSR.

Even with a heatsink? Either way, yeah it is only like $15 more to get a 40A SSR and heat sink.

 

[stevehaun]

POL:
Like Bakins, I run one hot directly to the element and the other hot is switched by the SSR. I also recommend going with a 40 or 50 amp SSR - I remember reading somewhere (Crydom or Omega website??) to go bigger with the SSR. Definitely use a heatsink.
I also have double pole, single throw 30 amp switch to control both hot limbs going to the element. You will definitely want them to prevent boil overs and it is also a good safety feature.
One thing I did to save money was to use the same electronics to control both the HLT and BK. I don't use them at the same time so it did not make sense to make a separate system for both. I simply wired an outlet on my enclosure and plug in either the HLT or the BK.

 

[The Pol]

My HLT is 120V... the BK will be 240V. I am going to set this up so that on the back of my box there will be outlets (3) for each item that is controlled from the box.
Basically my 5500W element will plug into the back with a 4 wire dryer cord. My Pump will plug into a 120V receptacle, same with my 1500W HLT element and stirrer....
THIS way I can unplug my kettle and other components when they have to be removed and cleaned etc.

My PID will have a switch to power it on...
My Pump will have a switch to power its receptacle
My Stirrer and JC419 receptacle will have a switch as well

 

[bakins]

you only want/need 3 wire plugs for the 240V stuff. You don't want to bound neutral to ground. Just run the 2 hots to the element and ground the pot.

Here's my setup:
The Northern Brewer Homebrew Forum • View topic - An extract brew on my electric rig

In this image, you can see the box on the pot. This has the element and that's a 3 wire dryer cord going into it. Just below the handle, that screw holds the ground wire in contact with pot. That ground wire runs to the box and is attached to the box and to the ground wire in the dryer plug.

 

[CodeRage]

Virtuous:
"You cant run power from a 220 GFCI and then split it into 110 because the current returning through the neutral will cause the GFCI to pop. So all of the breakers need to be wired in parallel."

This is exactly how my brewery is set up. I have one 50 amp, 240 VAC GFI breaker in my load center. I run the power thru a single (very large) power cord to an enclosure on my brewframe. I have power distribution block for my 2 hot limbs and my neutral limb. I have a separate grounding block. I run my two 4500 watt elements on 240 VAC and my pump and PID on 120VAC (from one of the hot limbs). I have used it for two seasons and never tripped the GFI. I think this is way any appliance that uses both 240 VAC and 120 VAC (dryer or stove) is wired.

Pol:
I use a PID and SSR to control the elements in my BK. I simply put it in manual mode at 100% power until the boil starts and then ramp back the % power until I can maintain a nice rolling boil.

Something is wrong with that GFCI then and I would have it checked. What that GFCI should be doing is monitoring current leaving L1 and then returning through L2 and vice versa depending on phase. if there is a difference of approx 4ma between the two it should trip. If you pull one of the lines off the gfci and run it to a 110 device with a neutral you have created a current imbalance between L1 and L2 and it should trip. Thats if your run the 110 device AFTER the gfci of course, if it is on the supply side it doesn't matter.

Actually, stove top elements run higher than that and the infinite heat switches (not my name for them) that are used to control them are usually rated for 15 amps which would control a 3500 watt element.

Hey thats cool, but it puts you at 3600W max, which is pretty close to the 3500W element. I wouldnt recommend them. Plus if he wants to expand he cant use it.

I use 2 SSRs on both sides of the 240 element. I dont like to leave voltage hanging around when it isnt needed, specially in this type of environment.

Get the largest SSR you can afford, These will have the least on/transition resistance at the junction which will create less heat. Very important if you plan to do any kind of fast switching. Bigger the heat sink the better too.

With that said. I use a 25A cause I am happy with my 4500W element and it puts me below %80 utilization. I use 3 of these, 2 for my 220V element and 1 for my 110V element. AD-SSR225-DC Products
Din rail makes it look nice and it is easy to change things.

I am trying to find a dedicated panel mount duty cycle controller for yah but not having much luck.

 

[The Pol]

Thanks, yeah, a dedicated duty cycle controller would be ideal...