3500W, 4500W or 5500W

[keithd]

Couple things -

You don't need a weldless kit for a water heater element, as least for the type that has a rubber gasket or washer on it already. The rubber gasket should seal it on the outside. I just drilled the hole in the keg and ran the element through, then tightened the nut a little more than hand-tight. I used a brass 1" nut, couldn't source a SS nut locally in Japan. Hasn't leaked or come loose.

Also, I see alot of high-density elements - the elements should be ultra-low density especially for the brew kettle. If they're shiny, they're not low or ultra-low density types. Less risk of scorching wort, but I wonder about scale buildup in HLT use vs high-density.

Third 'cause I can't count, you just feed the wavy element through by turning it 90 degrees a few times. Once you get it in, I'd recommend spreading the element open a bit if just to make cleaning it easier. (Didn't see that one answered.)
-keith

 

[The Pol]

I am not using a weldless kit, seems like overkill and more $$$ for nothing. I am using a SS nut, the element and the element seal. I am also sourcing a 5500W RIPP ULWD element for the BK. By the end of January my control panel and everything should be wired and I can get back to brewing!

 

[The Pol]

Better than using a liquid epoxy to pot your connections... it is easier to use the JB stick or comparable types of epoxy PUTTY. You can mold it, form it, it will not run or make a mess, and it is ultra strong.

 

[keithd]

Sorry Pol, my comments were meant in a general sense rather than you specifically.

BTW - Welding Depot 8/4 welding cable - multi-stranded welding cable that's like a wet noodle.
Stayonline 8/4 cable and Stayonline 6/3 cable. Just FYI in case anyone else is looking. It's hard (for me) to find online sellers that will sell large-gauge cables by the foot.
-keith

 

[The Pol]

Oh, no problem, I didnt take it personally... I was just stating what route I am headed. Thanks for the additional input!

 

[The Pol]

Anyone have a good source for small quantities of #10 AWG stranded wire? I can get it at McMaster but it is $30 for 100'... I dont need more than say 10'.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Pol; is this BK a 15.5 stainless keggle?
If so why not weld on a stainless plate that is big enough for a two gang Bell box. First drill at hole on one side of the plate large enough to fit over the element nut and in the location of one side or gang of the Bell box. Also drill out the Bell box on that same gang side for the element, nut and terminals to stick thru.Silicone seal the Bell box around the element to retain the water proof Bell box. On the other gang of the Bell box add a flush mounted 30 amp twist lock male plug. This way all you have to do is remove the cord from the bell box, the plug cover is spring loaded and will close. It is foam lined as well the cover to the Bell box hence water proof. With the cord removed your washing of the keg should be rather easy without a power cord and temp probe, simple, clean and best of all grounded.

You first started this thread not wanting any thermocouple at all on your BK just the HLT.

I'm a little lost following this thread as on reply #129
you stated "I am still looking for a jack thermocouple that I can disconnect from the BK otherwise it will be a @&^$ to clean the kettle".

You change your mind more than my daughter she just turned 15 today.
What do you want?????????????

I mentioned a pot mounted on your control panel connected to your PID to control the BK elements temperature for your boil rate as that would totally eliminate any temp probe mounted on the BK with just the power cord to the element to deal with, now the cord can also be removed. Note the starting paragraph above.

Sorry about that one reply I was totally azz backwards on my memory while typing with that # 10 gauge wire thinking it was after the 50 amp breaker not after the 30 amp which was correct and safe. I stated a correction reply on that other thread. I have seen worse than what I replied wondering why more houses have not burned down. My new neighbor found 18 gauge zip cord in the down stairs family room walls for plugs and lighting by a do it yourself remodeler. They got lucky as they used a oil filled portable electric heater of 1,500 watt plus TV on that plug protected by a 20 amp breaker. A big lucky no fire thing. Previous owner was the best hack artist alive.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Pol; in your travels there must be electrical supply houses that specilize in liquidation like buying extra electrical materials from the end of large jobs.The contractors can not piss around with partial spools of wire, fittings, pipe, hangers on and on besides it's a write off. I have thrown away #6 to 12 if less than 20' on jobs not alone taken home half spools not long enough for one pull. Someone mentioned cuting apart 10/4 to get the wire out for single runs, that is RW insulation, rubber / wet and lower amperage than better THHN insulated wire that can carry a higher amperage for the same wire gauge. And yes stranded. Rare to run across solid wire that is crap vs stranded. If I went to a shop that only used solid I would ask for my check knowing they are cheap bastards and I would get cheated if given time. You would want SOO cord available at a electrical supply house. SOO cord is oil resistant, thermoset,damp locations and for extra hard use. A person would have to be desperate to even go to those Home Depot, Ace Hardware or other cut throat price places for wire. I can find 5 supply houses within 7 miles from me and a Liquidator under 2 miles in town.
My kind of place where I can find electrical hardware that is 50 years old for replacement if needed plus were on first name bases. On big jobs busted plastic spools that hang up, spools full of azzholes (loops and knots) not worth the time on multi wire pulls, they get tossed, this on 500' spools. Most our wire was on 2,500' spools not 500', when under 350' which was between boxes on one big job it got tossed in the copper fund pile as every pull was longer runs. A Help myself type of shop I would say if I needed 190' from main to my garage help myself. Fixtures on remodels if good for a shop have truck will haul before it goes into the dumpsters. New dented fixture gets chit canned as time is money a write it off. I had it so good on demo jobs if first, grab large hp single phase blower motors then the copper buss between floors.

 

[The Pol]

Beemer, you have to first realize that I do not know everything there is to know about building an all electric system. Ask me how to build an electric HERMS and I can do that easily (I have done it). Ask me anything out piloting a jet, and I can answer it (I have done it) This I have never done, I have never used a PID, seen an actual SSR, wired anything from scratch etc. So to make a comment about me constantly changing my mind, is well, a little insensitive when you can clearly see from this thread that I am learning as the thread goes longer. You would have also seen where I was told that I must have a thermocouple, and then I began looking for a liquid tight yet removeable thermocouple so that my keg is not permanently thethered to my stand.

Regarding the Thermocouple... I have not changed my mind really.

I did not want to use one because I was told in error that I did NOT need one for maintaining a boil. THEN I was told that the PID will not operate without having a signal from a thermocouple. That being said, I will install one since then I can actually monitor my temp in the BK as I approach boil and as I am chilling the wort with the PID.

I want one that I can disconnect because of the thermocouple is hard wired to the PID in my control box AND permanently attached to my keg, I cannot even lift my keg! I cannot remove it from the stand for anything, it will be permanently tethered.

The 4' cord for the element power does not personally concern me nearly as much as the thermowell because it can be unplugged from the control box so that I can remove the keg from the stand.

I will look for electrical supply houses here that I may be able to use to source the wiring that I need for my box... thanks for the heads up.

 

[kal]

You don't need a weldless kit for a water heater element, as least for the type that has a rubber gasket or washer on it already.

I am not using a weldless kit, seems like overkill and more $$$ for nothing. I am using a SS nut, the element and the element seal.

I didn't know that most elements come with seals. Thanks guys! Certainly easier.

Kal

 

[The Pol]

Yes, all water heater elements come with fat little seals... glad we can help!

 

[bakins]

Anyone have a good source for small quantities of #10 AWG stranded wire? I can get it at McMaster but it is $30 for 100'... I dont need more than say 10'.

I got mine at Home Depot by the foot.

 

[The Pol]

Stranded, not solid core?

 

[LooyvilleLarry]

Mine was the stranded, 4 wire (10/3). Lowes, 2.33/ft.

 

[stevehaun]

I bought my wire (stranded and color coded) by the foot at Home Depot.

 

[The Pol]

Ok... sweet

 

[bmarley5780]

Ya, I think they have the 10# stuff but not the 6#

Just to make sure I actaully need the 6# I plan on:

50A GFCI---6/4 wire--->50A range recep--->50A plug---6/4 wire---->Control Box (PID, (2) 4,500 k elements

I should be using the 6# wire for the power side of this right?

 

[The Pol]

Yes, with 50A... yes.

I am running ONE element at 23A... so I am building it for 30A... thus the #10 wire

 

[BrewBeemer]

Sorry Pol I must of been "insensitive" after reading your different replies not wanting a temp probe then back to wanting a probe on the boil kettle, how was I to know? I posted about a pot mounted on the control panel totally eliminating a probe in the boil kettle that must of not clicked at all. It's your build your the one that has to be pleased when done.
To epoxy fill a splice or connection (reply 145) or JB weld over the wires to the element like reply 176 and solder a handy box extension to a keg like reply 168 are totally against the NEC electrical code besides a handy box extension is not waterproof. Those KO's will leak in water, add a little heat for a hot steamy spice waiting for rust and corrosion inside. Just the facts not being a wise azz. Just don't let an electrical inspector see any of these projects.

Pol, back in 1973 I had a chance to fly across country and back in a Falcon jet, got some hours under my butt, flying it bored me to death after a while. Now friends with a the Stearman (PT17), Howard and another with a Staggerwing Beach that was fun to fly for many years. Tail draggers and radials were my love before I gave it up. Only lasted around six years before I got tired of aviation after working on big birds all the time this killed the joy.
I don't even look up unless it's a radial or a Mustang. Too much noise and smell from the Oakland airport from a winter southern wind.
Hey build your brewery your way ahead of my second build, all I got is a pile of kegs and corny's. Health comes first.

 

[Gregredic]

BrewBeemer...not trying to start anything, but I couldn't decypher what you were trying to say there. I knew you were saying you could do something so that you wouldn't need a thermocouple, but your description personally left me completely confused. You must keep in mind that Pol...like many of us....are trying to learn about this. That is the whole point of a forum. Pol even stated this point several times. I personally appreciate your, along with everyone elses input.

Pol decided that he had to use a thermocoupler. He stated it in one of the pervious threads, shortly after other posters were stating he would have to have one.

BrewBeemer....in your opinion, what would be better than the epoxy? I personally was thinking about silicon. I figure if you build up enough of it, water getting to the element shouldnt be an issue. Also, silicon doesn't really degrade with time and is resistant to heat.

 

[The Pol]

Maybe not to "code" but what the hell are we doing that is even close to code?

JB Weld: Like metal, J-B STIK can be formed, drilled, ground, tapped, machined, filled, sanded, and painted. It stays pliable for about 30 minutes after mixing, sets in 4-6 hours, and cures fully in 15-24 hours. It's water-proof; petroleum-, chemical-, and acid-resistent; resists shock, vibration, and extreme temperature fluctuations, and withstands temperatures up to 500° F. J-B STIK is super strong, non-toxic, and safe to use. Before it sets, you can clean up with soap and water.

Potting electrical connections in insualting epoxy is nothing new... I chose JB because in my experience it is much stronger than most "plastic" epoxies.

I appreciate all of the help, and critisizm... I do. I have a feeling there are many reading this thread with electric rigs who are thinking "hell, I didnt do it that way!" and are choosing not to chime in so that they dont get reprimanded for what they have done.

I am not planning to connect any "box" to my keggle... I am simply constructing a PVC housing to surround my element electrical connections, filling it with insulating epoxy to make a SOLID block that is impervious to heat, water, condensation etc. This will NOT be connected to the keg, but will become a part of the element itself. The epoxy will extend to include the power cord sheath, not simply "coat" the connections, adding extra strength. I have done this in the past, and it is still working flawlessly.

I may be stupid when it comes to these things, but I do my best to mitigate as best I can.

 

[bmarley5780]

"To epoxy fill a splice or connection (reply 145) or JB weld over the wires to the element like reply 176 and solder a handy box extension to a keg like reply 168 are totally against the NEC electrical code besides a handy box extension is not waterproof. Those KO's will leak in water, add a little heat for a hot steamy spice waiting for rust and corrosion inside. Just the facts not being a wise azz. Just don't let an electrical inspector see any of these projects."

Sooooooooo, now what? Liquid gold it?
-LOL-

 

[The Pol]

The electrical end of my element will be encased in a 1" x 1" SOLID BLOCK of JB Weld Epoxy... if that does not keep water out, nothing will, and we will all die while brewing beer. Thus far my other element seems fine, so I am not TOO worried about it... but maybe I should be.

 

[bull8042]

Pol, my one concern about your potting.... There are several epoxies that are designed for the purpose of potting electronic components and are used very successfully. HOWEVER, JBWeld is a different critter. Everything you specified is correct, but you didn't quote dielectric properties. Most variants of JBWeld are a repair medium and many of them have metal particles in it that gives it strength. That would make it conductive! A definite no no for your application. My other concern with epoxy embedding is the futire maintenance requirements. You will never be able to access your connections again once that stuff cures.
Summing up, please verify the dielectric specifications of whatever potting compound you choose. 300V MINIMUM, and I would prefer to see 600V personally.

 

[The Pol]

JB Weld is an electric insulator... I researched that previously. As stated before, I have used it more than once in similar applications.(ie my electric HLT)

 

[bmarley5780]

Pol, my one concern about your potting.... There are several epoxies that are designed for the purpose of potting electronic components and are used very successfully. HOWEVER, JBWeld is a different critter. Everything you specified is correct, but you didn't quote dielectric properties. Most variants of JBWeld are a repair medium and many of them have metal particles in it that gives it strength. That would make it conductive! A definite no no for your application. My other concern with epoxy embedding is the futire maintenance requirements. You will never be able to access your connections again once that stuff cures.
Summing up, please verify the dielectric specifications of whatever potting compound you choose. 300V MINIMUM, and I would prefer to see 600V personally.

Which brings me back to:

Harbor Freight Tools - Quality Tools at the Lowest Prices
4 FL. OZ. LIQUID ELECTRICAL TAPE

The Best Dielectric Protection on the Market
Liquid Tape is a brush-on rubber insulation coating that exhibits excellent acid, alkaline, and abrasion protection and seals out moisture and salt permanently.


Dielectric strength of 1200 volts/mil per coat
Rubber-based coating will not harden, unravel or become brittle in extreme weather conditions

 

[bnscherm]

The Pol,

Have you received your RIPP heater yet? I was just wondering where you plan to mount it on your keggle. I'm not sure how long the heater is, but if you mount it to the flat spot in the bottom of the keg vertically it may be too high to boil 5 gallon batches. Will it fit in the keggle horizontally? Just a thought...

 

[caskconditioned]

The Pol - please make sure you take lots of pics. And if anyone has done this before, please continue to post pictures. The more the better. I have a feeling this thread will continue to grow and slowly become a wealth of knowledge for all of us. And thanks to everyone who is contributing. Every day I look forward to learning more about electricity etc.

So now a really basic question (hold the laughs)... what is the rule for determining the wire size to use (gauge, solid, etc)? In other words, is there a chart or something that says you should use xyz if it's 240 @25 amps etc.

 

[keiths]

Yes the ripp elements do fit in the side of a keg.

And all I did to seal my elements was to use a short piece of PVC and then silicone around it and it has been good to go ever since.

 

[The Pol]

No, I will not be placing the element in the bottom, for the obvious reason that it will be much too tall for a 5 gallon batch.

It will be inserted through the side as shown in the previous pic.

I would have no problem potting the connections with that liquid electrical tape, but you cannot pot things with that, and I do not simply want to "coat" the connections. It is a solvent based adhesive, and if you pour a block of it, it will shrink (moisture loss) and it would take probably 3-4 months to dry, or longer.

Epoxies are chemical reactions that do not "dry"... JB Weld cures during an exothermic reaction. I do not want to "coat" the connections because I do not want them to get dinged or peeled if they get smacked by something... which is why I want to pot them.

For wire size, there are charts... google it... you will want to use stranded, not solid core, for the control box as stated previously in this thread due to the ability to manipulate and bend it to make connections in the box.