3500W, 4500W or 5500W

[bmarley5780]

LOVE the pics Keith

 

[bull8042]

So now a really basic question (hold the laughs)... what is the rule for determining the wire size to use (gauge, solid, etc)? In other words, is there a chart or something that says you should use xyz if it's 240 @25 amps etc.

This is assuming 60°C insulation (THW MTW etc). If using wire with 75°C insulation (THHN), you can add 10 ampf for wire 8AWG and larger.
18AWG - 7A
16AWG - 10A
14AWG - 15A
12AWG - 20A
10AWG - 30A
8AWG - 40A
6AWG - 55A
4AWG - 70A

 

[BrewBeemer]

bull8042; on the last big CalTrans state tunnel job of 3 1/2 years they speced
out THW and would not allow THHN even when shown in the specs how much better it was. Not alone how easy to pull and the higher wire count to 40% conduit fill. Those EE's were a piece of work lucky to even speak English.

Hey Pol; going back to Keiths photos with PVC sticking out the side of the keg, follow me on this. Inside the short PVC nipple mount your flush male mount 30 amp twist lock plug. When done remove your plug and cord and slip on a PVC pipe cap over the that PVC stub. Make the stub just long enough to reack fully inside the cap. This would just be a short piece of PVC with no cord for easy moving and washing. That would be the only item connected to the BK with the pot mounted on the control panel for PID heat control. The only thing I would question is PVC gets soft around the temps of boiling water.
We bent 4" PVC with a job site built 6' cannon filled 50/50 water anti-freeze running around 220 degrees, made the PVC act like a soft rubber garden hose.

 

[kal]

And all I did to seal my elements was to use a short piece of PVC and then silicone around it and it has been good to go ever since.

Great pics. Got any closeup of that PVC connection?

Kal

 

[Gregredic]

CPVC should work better around the heat than PVC. I just dont know if they make CPVC pieces the size you are looking for.

 

[The Pol]

The PVC is ouside the keg... I dunno if it really matters too much.

 

[BrewBeemer]

The PVC is ouside the keg... I dunno if it really matters too much.

How will the PVC nipple be connected to the BK without heat from the BK transferring to the PVC? Have you considered the temperature of the insulation of the cord your using to wire up these elements? None of the insulation on the wires including THHN are rated for BK temps. Your in the fixture wire operating temperature range by code but then your down to #10 AF dry locations with insulation rated for 150*C or 302*F unless you use fiberglass insulated wire. This is used in foundries.
The word is itch thinking about working around heat and pulling fiberglass wire.


When you get into a junction box full of the wires operated in an environment above the rated insulations maximum it falls off from being cooked you will understand and wonder why it didn't blow up in the first place. Just a heads up.

 

[The Pol]

I am not going to have any PVC connected to my keg...

Also, on my electric HLT, the cord and associated insulation never gets over say 90F when I am brewing.

I dont see a problem. Of course, I am sure some of you will... you always do

I understand that my brewing rig is destined to blow up, but I am okay with that. I will take lots of pics and post them here.

I am surprised that with all of these electric rigs hanging around that we have not had more pics of exploding brewing rigs.

 

[slnies]

I am not going to have any PVC connected to my keg...

Also, on my electric HLT, the cord and associated insulation never gets over say 90F when I am brewing.

I dont see a problem. Of course, I am sure some of you will... you always do

I understand that my brewing rig is destined to blow up, but I am okay with that. I will take lots of pics and post them here.

I am surprised that with all of these electric rigs hanging around that we have not had more pics of exploding brewing rigs.

Say Pol,


Just go with it and "get her done". I have been brewing electric for the most part now for a year. There have been no problems. I think you have a good plan from what I can gleen from this thread and others. I have been telling folks for quit a while now, that electric is a great way to go, and it is easier than people like to think. So plus one for the POL!! I can't wait to see the pics. S.

 

[Gregredic]

Okay BrewBeemer....I'm ignorant on the term THHN and what it means...care to enlighten me, and possibly anyone else, what that might mean?

 

[BrewBeemer]

It's all about the types of the insulation not the wire itself, leave solid wire completly out of this unless your doing door bell or romex.
THHN is a heat resistant thermoplastic with a nylon outside layer rated to 90*C or 194*F for dry and damp applications. Easy to pull with that nylon outside layer. THW also a thermoplastic for wet and dry locations but has a thicker insulation and pulls harder without that nylon jacket.
RHW, R for rubber insulation a real PITA to pull thru conduit runs also with a thick rubber insulation that is soft and digs in making it hard to pull. TW, thermoplastic, W for dry or wet locations but maximum rated at only 60*C or 140*F. There are many more types of wire insulations, temperature range as well operating voltages they can be used with. Depending on the number of wires in a conduit fill plus the ambient temperatures they are operating at the amperage capacity per given wire gauge must also be derated. The code book is our bible and these are set minimum standards. Different cities can have higher required standards that are above what is required by the National Electrical Code. If you don't ask you don't learn. Hope this helped.

 

[slnies]

It's all about the types of the insulation not the wire itself, leave solid wire completly out of this unless your doing door bell or romex.
THHN is a heat resistant thermoplastic with a nylon outside layer rated to 90*C or 194*F for dry and damp applications. Easy to pull with that nylon outside layer. THW also a thermoplastic for wet and dry locations but has a thicker insulation and pulls harder without that nylon jacket.
RHW, R for rubber insulation a real PITA to pull thru conduit runs also with a thick rubber insulation that is soft and digs in making it hard to pull. TW, thermoplastic, W for dry or wet locations but maximum rated at only 60*C or 140*F. There are many more types of wire insulations, temperature range as well operating voltages they can be used with. Depending on the number of wires in a conduit fill plus the ambient temperatures they are operating at the amperage capacity per given wire gauge must also be derated. The code book is our bible and these are set minimum standards. Different cities can have higher required standards that are above what is required by the National Electrical Code. If you don't ask you don't learn. Hope this helped.

Brewbeemer forgot to mention that all wire is required to be marked by the manufacture as to the gauge, the max voltage, and the insulation type. Here in good ol' Minnesota THW is a no, no. But if you look at modern THHN, it has multiple insulation ratings, one of which includes THW. S.

 

[Bobby_M]

I'm pretty sure I'm going all electric once I get my service upgraded from 100amp. Cheers to all the pioneers who I will be tapping for info in the future.

 

[bull8042]

I'm pretty sure I'm going all electric once I get my service upgraded from 100amp. Cheers to all the pioneers who I will be tapping for info in the future.

Sorry Bobby, but as this information was directed specifically at The Pol, I am afraid you cannot use it.

The amperages I provided were quoted from the NFPA "bible for us machine builders". I don't think there will be any issues with the temperature ratings of the wires as long as they are protected even minimally. I just don't see that much heat being transferred from the element connections to the wire to be a problem.
The PVC pipe fittings used for protecting the connections may soften slightly at boiling temps, but that is debatable. In any case, it doesn't begin to become a problem until you exceed 300F, at which point it begins to breakdown and release chlorine gas.
BrewBeemer, you have obviously had the "pleasure" of working with some real peckerhead EEs. I personally am never wrong, but those engineers that are should learn to admit their mistakes!

 

[The Pol]

Thanks, I appreciate all of the help guys. When I am wired up, I will be taking temps at the connections and in side my box to let you know how hot these things really get when operating.

 

[BrewBeemer]

Brewbeemer forgot to mention that all wire is required to be marked by the manufacture as to the gauge, the max voltage, and the insulation type. Here in good ol' Minnesota THW is a no, no. But if you look at modern THHN, it has multiple insulation ratings, one of which includes THW. S.

slnies; the above quote was so common and natural to me I didn't think to
mention it as this is such a basic item a first month apprentice in the electrical trade learns in school and their on the job training. The 5 year apprentice program adds more information under International and IBEW controlled guide lines I guess I should of posted this also not thinking about brewers that come from all walks of life not having a clue about conductors with their insulating properties and temperature limits. If "THW is a no,no" TW and RW must also be banned. Hell they should of been banned years ago. You didn't mention Belden wire rated at 300 volts maximum and 600 volts for the above wires I mentioned plus the maximun distance repeated not exceeding 24". You also didn't mention what section of the code book this informations located did you? Try section 310-11. markings (b) method of markings (1) surface marking if you want to make a complete reply statement. This in the NEC code book. This isn't my first rodeo sparkie. Your sounding more like a EE, don't do that, not to many can relate to the trade unless they were a wireman before becoming an EE.

 

[The Pol]

My inquiring and actual building will be slow from here on out. Getting my assignments for the coming 6 weeks and I will be flying a lot, about 16 days/month.

I will be checking back in when I have questions, pics and commentary. But, alas, the "man" has called me back to duty.

 

[slnies]

slnies; the above quote was so common and natural to me I didn't think to
mention it as this is such a basic item a first month apprentice in the electrical trade learns in school and their on the job training. The 5 year apprentice program adds more information under International and IBEW controlled guide lines I guess I should of posted this also not thinking about brewers that come from all walks of life not having a clue about conductors with their insulating properties and temperature limits. If "THW is a no,no" TW and RW must also be banned. Hell they should of been banned years ago. You didn't mention Belden wire rated at 300 volts maximum and 600 volts for the above wires I mentioned plus the maximun distance repeated not exceeding 24". You also didn't mention what section of the code book this informations located did you? Try section 310-11. markings (b) method of markings (1) surface marking if you want to make a complete reply statement. This in the NEC code book. This isn't my first rodeo sparkie. Your soundind more like a EE, don't do that, not to many can relate to the trade unless they were a wireman before becoming an EE.

Don't worry brewbeemer, I am no EE, yet! Just a sparky like you. Like the commercial says " It's all I do, and I do it well". Any who's I just wanted people to get the important info. You and I know the nitty gritty, but that is beyond the scope of the thread. You are also right in that we electricians take that info for granted. You would also be correct in guessing that I take great delight in finding an EE's mistakes and giving him the rub, as he is supposed to be the expert, but then again, he doesn't have a license that allows him to do my job either. (most of the time anyway) But if that is the case, than his plan is usually not lacking. So, sorry, when you start talking about wire that is older than the hills, (THW) it gets my attention. But as far as code goes, your statement would have been more accurate as just article 310 or section 300 Wiring Methods as this covers all instances related to wire, etc. I know, a shot gun answer, but then again I wasn't debating code, or insinuating that you were wrong, only adding to a good argument. S

 

[bull8042]

Alright you two, I may be a EE, but I also have 15 yrs exp wiring machines. HOWEVER, I have also worked with my fair share of engineers that have a piece of paper, but couldn't design their way out of a paper bag. So, that being said, we cant all be categorized as the same.
Of course, even though I can quote most of the NFPA-79 code, my knowledge of NEC is limited mostly to the parts as they pertain to machine building, so I am not going to debate the commercial/industrial stuff. I just don't want the info I contribute to be discounted merely because I am a EE and the ones you have dealt with in the past seem to have been inexperience morons.
In any case, POL, be safe in your travels. Whenever you have time to check in, let us know and we will be more than happy to offer our knowledge and experience.
One thing that comes to mind... BrewBeemer and slnies, we need to be careful with our comments. We as professionals in our field are bound by NFPA, NEC, etc. However, we as homebrewers are not held to the same standards. In other words, we must make sure to provide SAFE recommendations for everyone reading and referring to these posts. But we must also not make things unnecessarily complicated. In other words, if The Pol were building a "machine" to install in a customers facility, his electrical enclosure would have to have a disconnect that would remove all power before the door could be opened. However, he doesn't need to concern himself with that for his personal rig. Same can be said for conductor colors, UL & CE markings on devices, etc.
Let's keep our posts simple and to the point without burdoning others with information that is not relevant to their needs. Does this sound like a reasonable idea?

 

[BrewBeemer]

Tag your it bull, the floors yours.
I've bounced around the different counties of the S.F. bay area from high rise buildings in S.F.,Turd farms, water district pumping stations, power hookups for aircraft carriers NAS to CalTrans tunnels 124' below sea level that container ships passed over between Alameda and Oakland. Talking about specs and dealing with government employed EE's that can get you killed this almost done to me once while working 12K hot. After that there's been a thin line between me almost snapping and going postal on a few EE's in my past. No worries your safe bull your one of those that I respect. On my part it's been a well rounded background including assembling those first largest in the world super cranes on the west coast. We rewired them to U.S. wire code then reassembled these giants at the Port of Oakland then at S.F. at pier 80 Army street. DC is a different animal on cranes. These were built in Korea. This is Pol's brewing project thread. Nuff said from me.

 

[The Pol]

Thanks guys... I appreciate the call to lighten it up a little on this thread.

 

[thevalkrye]

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[BrewBeemer]

thank god...i appreciate it too. i have been following a lot of the electric/herms type threads lately and cant even count how many have been destroyed by ridiculous over the top electrical discussions/pissing contests.

they get really hard to follow because you have to sift out the arguing/insult posts and then any of the information presented is almost incomprehensible because of different standards organizations quotes and who knows more about what and so on.

i really do appreciate the information but sometimes it is like you guys are so busy arguing about this and that, that the point gets lots.

thevalkrye; slnies, bull8042 and myself "BrewBeemer" plus many other wiremen on this forum besides EE's have never posted anything that you posted as "ridiculous over the top electrical discussions/pissing contests" as you stated. Those are your words or opinions. Your freedom to say. We replied with just the facts on proper safe minumum electrical installations and materials used as minimum safety standards by our bible or code book. Now your "almost incomprehsible" reply is on only a basic topic. Spend 3-5 days reading from front to back the new NEC book, UNDERSTAND, INTERPRET AND EXPLAIN IT FULLY. We were all adding a little information to this OP. The "Bible" we go by has a important meaning depending on how it's applied in our daily life. For me i'm retired working off code memory from 6 years ago. No worries i'll not reply i'm busy enough with my own equipment projects. Be safe with your electrical projects as a big shock can just piss some people off while a small shock can be a fatal one to another person under the right conditions. Your results may vary depending on the person, voltage and amperage. Be safe out there.

 

[thevalkrye]

Let's keep our posts simple and to the point without burdoning others with information that is not relevant to their needs. Does this sound like a reasonable idea?

i was just happy about this is all...sorry to offend!! this isnt my thread...i wont post anymore here.

 

[Gregredic]

I think what thevalkrye was trying to say is that giving everyone the long laundry list of their respective credentials doesn't help the thread, whereas offering advice is what is needed. Its just easier/better to stay on topic.

 

[bull8042]

i was just happy about this is all...sorry to offend!! this isnt my thread...i wont post anymore here.

N/P. You did not offend me at all, nor did I really feel like your post was directed at me.

I think what thevalkrye was trying to say is that giving everyone the long laundry list of their respective credentials doesn't help the thread, whereas offering advice is what is needed. Its just easier/better to stay on topic.

This thread has gotten so long, it is about useless for everyone else except us that have been involved from the start. Most people won't go back and read from the beginning after they get to be more than 2 - 4 pages.... unless it is in the boneyard. But that is a different story entirely.
I expect The Pol is anal enough to start a new thread summing up the major points of this thread and the others he has been involved in once his build is completed.
If not, I will try to gather the pertinent information and put it in a single post that may provide the basic do's and don't's for anyone contemplating going electric.

 

[caskconditioned]

This thread has gotten so long, it is about useless for everyone else except us that have been involved from the start. Most people won't go back and read from the beginning after they get to be more than 2 - 4 pages.... unless it is in the boneyard. But that is a different story entirely.
I expect The Pol is anal enough to start a new thread summing up the major points of this thread and the others he has been involved in once his build is completed.
If not, I will try to gather the pertinent information and put it in a single post that may provide the basic do's and don't's for anyone contemplating going electric.

That would be incredible. I've been following this from the start and I still tend to get lost. Thanks!

 

[IrregularPulse]

I agree with Valkrye's comments about everyone electric brew rig thread getting way out of hand about code talk and what not. I understand that people deal with it at work and cannot shut it off. I also understand wanting your fellow brewer to be safe. but sometimes it's too much. I deal with electricals at work, but I don't use the same mentality about it all when I'm building something at home. Only idiot I need to protect is myself.
For as many electric brewing threads that we have, for some reason, we still do not have a simple build thread about making an electric brew kettle with parts list. I'm guessing because all the over the top discussion discourages everyone.

 

[The Pol]

I will be installing the element in the keg tomorrow... I will begin a new thread called...

"Bling Bling Electric HERMS Conversion"

I will post tools used, helpful tips that I learn, parts used and suppliers of those parts. All accompanied by pics. I will also post a running tab of all incurred costs with each post. Much like the "How many gallons of XXXXX have been brewed" threads.

This thread is as good as dead due to its length and how far off course it has gotten. Let the new thread be used ONLY for building and documentation of the build.

Thanks for all of the support.

 

[nathan]

I can't wait to read it. I'd like to electrify my keggle HLT soon.