2nd Time Low Efficiency (50%)?

[Liveforliving]

This is the second time I've had low efficiency with all grain. Here's the details:

American Pale Ale:
8 lbs 2-row
2.5 lbs Crystal 40
0.5 lbs Carapils

0.5 oz Citra @ 55
0.5 oz Citra @ 30
0.5 oz Cascade @ 5

Mash temperature stayed at 150 whole time in water cooler (no recirculation)
Sparged for 45 minutes at 175, keeping temp around 170.
Boiled 60minutes, no issues.

Predicted OG (Beerfriend Caluculator 50%): 1.036
Our PreBoil Gravity: 1.02
Our OG: 1.38

We're shooting for at least 75% efficiency. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance!

 

[Yooper]

The low efficiency could be due to a poor crush, or to issues with volume.

This is NOT the cause of the poor efficiency, but that recipe is really terrible. It's 30% crystal malt! I don't know if you made it yourself, or found the idea somewhere else, but if you want a drinkable beer don't use more than 1 pound of crystal/cara malts in a 10 pound batch. Just a heads up for next time!

 

[jschein]

The low efficiency could be due to a poor crush, or to issues with volume.

This is NOT the cause of the poor efficiency, but that recipe is really terrible. It's 30% crystal malt! I don't know if you made it yourself, or found the idea somewhere else, but if you want a drinkable beer don't use more than 1 pound of crystal/cara malts in a 10 pound batch. Just a heads up for next time!

This

 

[Liveforliving]

Good to know about the recipe, it was one from the internet. I need to learn more about that....

We get our grains milled (I assume this is what you mean by crush) at the store, that'd be odd if they did a bad job?

Our sparge was 3.66 gallons, mash out at 5.72, all for 5.5 gallon batch. Volume should have been good....

 

[Qhrumphf]

Store crushes are notoriously inconsistent and often too coarse for all grain brewing even in an MLT. That's your likely source.

Are you batch sparging or fly sparging? Sounds like fly sparging, in which case I'd slow it down a little more, ideally taking an hour or longer.

An easy check, take the gravity of your first runnings (after vorlauf). Check the gravity against the chart here: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Efficiency#Conversion_efficiency. If you're not getting near the listed gravity for your water to grain ratio (some variance will happen depending on extract potential of the grains, and you likely won't get 100% of it, I usually get 98-99%), then the issue is grain crush, mash pH, mash temp/time, diastatic power or something else happening in the mash- you're not getting all the starches converted into sugars. In your case, sounds like temp, time, and diastatic power should be fine, but crush and pH could be suspect (depending on your water source and what, if anything, you did to it).

If you're getting a number close to that listed number, then your conversion is fine, and it's going to be something procedural/system related- you're getting the sugars available but aren't rinsing them fully. Could be system design (getting chanelling or something), or could still be grain crush, or just not sparging enough or for long enough.

 

[Kozwald]

I'm brewing right now and only got 56% efficiency. I'm usually around 72%. I'm chalking it up to a new supply store here in town. They only have a small portable grinder attached to a cordless drill. When milling I noticed quite a few uncracked grains so I ran the grains through a second time. I actually thought the roller gap looked wide, I should have stopped to tighten it up.

Looks like this batch will only hit about 5% instead of the anticipated 6.2%.

 

[Qhrumphf]

The way I look at it, no excuse for an all-grain brewer not to own their own mill, at least not if they want any semblance of consistency. Grain crush is a huge factor, and unless you're setting the store mill gap and crushing yourself, or at least inspecting it every time they crush it and complaining if they don't crush it enough and making them tighten the gap and redo it (quick way to burn a bridge), who knows what you're going to get. I think most stores crush for extract brewers doing a pound or two at a time where extraction won't be a big deal, and as such aren't really worried about it.

Mills aren't that expensive. Definitely cheaper than a lot of other items. Just buy a mill.

 

[Kozwald]

Looks like I know what I'm asking for Christmas!!

 

[Kozwald]

Any suggestions on a quality mill?

 

[specharka]

The way I look at it, no excuse for an all-grain brewer not to own their own mill, at least not if they want any semblance of consistency. Grain crush is a huge factor, and unless you're setting the store mill gap and crushing yourself, or at least inspecting it every time they crush it and complaining if they don't crush it enough and making them tighten the gap and redo it (quick way to burn a bridge), who knows what you're going to get. I think most stores crush for extract brewers doing a pound or two at a time where extraction won't be a big deal, and as such aren't really worried about it.

Mills aren't that expensive. Definitely cheaper than a lot of other items. Just buy a mill.

I can think of plenty of reasons not to own a grain mill -- lack of space, inability to store bulk grains, accumulation of mill dust, etc. Put simply, the cost is definitely not a trivial one, and necessitates knowing the difference in efficiency and return on investment.

I mill my own grains at my LHBS -- measure, mill, condition if I want. I imagine if I had any issues with their grain crush gap I could ask them to fix it, but this hasn't been the case. Not to mention it's a much better mill than most commercially available ones I've seen. I understand my experience might be atypical, but there is zero incentive for me to purchase a malt mill.

Just ask the guys at the LHBS to mill it twice if there are serious problems with your crush -- it's not that big of a deal.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I can think of plenty of reasons not to own a grain mill -- lack of space, inability to store bulk grains, accumulation of mill dust, etc. Put simply, the cost is definitely not a trivial one, and necessitates knowing the difference in efficiency and return on investment.

I mill my own grains at my LHBS -- measure, mill, condition if I want. I imagine if I had any issues with their grain crush gap I could ask them to fix it, but this hasn't been the case. Not to mention it's a much better mill than most commercially available ones I've seen. I understand my experience might be atypical, but there is zero incentive for me to purchase a malt mill.

Just ask the guys at the LHBS to mill it twice if there are serious problems with your crush -- it's not that big of a deal.

It's not trivial, I'll give you that. But it's less than a new kettle, less than many pumps, less than a lot of other equipment.

If you have good control over your store mill, and you get consistent results, then that's fine. I'd still prefer to crush my own grains on demand, but the difference between when you crush and brew and when I crush and brew is unlikely to make a perceptible difference.

The issue is that most brewers don't have control over the store mill. And if the gap is too wide, running it through twice will only help so much.

A Corona-style mill is better than nothing and is fairly inexpensive (~$50-60 if I recall correctly) but it's not ideal especially for MLT brewing as it likes to shred more than crush the husks (fine choice for BIAB though). The Barley Crusher is what I use (and what most folks I know use), and it's ~$100-140 depending on your source/factoring in shipping. Outside of having to occasionally dissamble and fully clean it (I had to after about 50 batches through it, when the mill finally seized, normally I just brush out all the dust), I've had zero problems with it. The Monster Mill is a great option, but that's a little more expensive and I'm not sure the performance over the Barley Crusher justifies the extra cost.

Point is, a number of options to choose from, but I'd highly recommend the Barley Crusher. Just make sure you tighten down the mill gap. It comes at 0.038" inches, which is too coarse for my taste. I set mine to 0.032" and get great efficiency (85-90% depending on the beer and the mash/sparge process I use).

 

[RM-MN]

The Corona style mills can be fine for either conventional mash tuns or BIAB depending on YOU. Biab can handle very fine milling and doesn't care it the husks are shredded so that makes it easy. For the conventional tun you need the mill opened up a bit (not too much or you lose a lot on efficiency) but you also need the husks to be mostly intact to form the filter bed. To keep the Corona mill from shredding the husks you need to make them tougher. Wetting them does just that so many people "condition" their grains to that end. Spray the grains with water, stir them around and wait a few minutes for the husks to absorb the moisture and proceed with milling. The Corona style mills can be bought for about half the amount quoted above if you look around a bit.

 

[Gavin C]

I'm completely agree. Having control of the milling process is hugely important.

$100 Cereal Killer

There is no rule that says you have to buy grains in bulk if store space is an issue. You can still buy them batch to batch.

If worried about dust, condition your grains before milling.

 

[estricklin]

$30 dollars or so for the Corona mill on Amazon. Check out this thread on how to make some quick and easy improvements and your solid gold.

So yes crush can be an issue, but what are you using for a false bottom? I'm a big fan of fly sparging, but it doesn't work very well if you don't have a good false bottom.

 

[Liveforliving]

A poor false bottom for efficiency? You mean because it may get stuck?
I have a domed false bottom, similar to this: http://www.morebeer.com/products/st...WOToBaYf9eCXv5nsoeXNDL5L2fCyVXcnpwaAukm8P8HAQ

Never seemed to have an issue with it. It's done me well.

 

[specharka]

I'm completely agree. Having control of the milling process is hugely important.



$100 Cereal Killer



There is no rule that says you have to buy grains in bulk if store space is an issue. You can still buy them batch to batch.



If worried about dust, condition your grains before milling.

That does look like a good mill, but I have heard some people here have issues with it. Can someone provide crush pics?

I know storing bulk grains is not necessary, but that's the only thing that makes it financially attractive for me. Otherwise I'm still paying $1.80/lb to crush it myself, only now there's a $100 piece of equipment on my shelf.

 

[estricklin]

A poor false bottom for efficiency? You mean because it may get stuck?
I have a domed false bottom, similar to this: http://www.morebeer.com/products/st...WOToBaYf9eCXv5nsoeXNDL5L2fCyVXcnpwaAukm8P8HAQ

Never seemed to have an issue with it. It's done me well.

No, I was referring to something like a homemade braided mesh screen, fly sparging with those can cause channeling. Your domed one should work great.

Here is the link I forgot:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=90849

 

[GMS]

For me milling my own grains significantly improved my efficiency. I went from 75 % (with a decent commercial crush) or 65%(with a lousy crush) to 87% on my last batch.

 

[brewcat]

The way I look at it, no excuse for an all-grain brewer not to own their own mill, at least not if they want any semblance of consistency. Grain crush is a huge factor, and unless you're setting the store mill gap and crushing yourself, or at least inspecting it every time they crush it and complaining if they don't crush it enough and making them tighten the gap and redo it (quick way to burn a bridge), who knows what you're going to get. I think most stores crush for extract brewers doing a pound or two at a time where extraction won't be a big deal, and as such aren't really worried about it.

Mills aren't that expensive. Definitely cheaper than a lot of other items. Just buy a mill.

I don't because that is another time commitment. It isn't something I want to do at this point. Anyway NB's crush gets me consistent efficiency.

 

[Gavin C]

That does look like a good mill, but I have heard some people here have issues with it. Can someone provide crush pics?

I know storing bulk grains is not necessary, but that's the only thing that makes it financially attractive for me. Otherwise I'm still paying $1.80/lb to crush it myself, only now there's a $100 piece of equipment on my shelf.

I've had issues with it. It's pretty flimsy. Took it apart, lubed all the bushings (think that's what they're called) and it runs like , well it runs like a well oiled machine ever since.

A decent mill, you get what you pay for though. Flimsy hopper, flimsily mounted but works fine. Solid rollers. Initially I was very frustrated with the quality of the product. Solid build, no. Functional product, yes. Money well spent.

No problems with crush. Mine is set at the narrowest setting for BIAB. You'll have no problems getting a gap setting that works for you using a manifold/braid/false bottom.

My crush I go a bit finer since this picture was taken.

 

[Liveforliving]

No, I was referring to something like a homemade braided mesh screen, fly sparging with those can cause channeling. Your domed one should work great.

Here is the link I forgot:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=90849

Good to know, thanks!

 

[Liveforliving]

Hey folks, just to give an update, I went ahead and bought the barely crusher. It was only $99, which appeared to be a great deal with awesome reviews. The cheaper corona mill sounds great, but I was just more comfortable with the roller style. I also bought a ph meter, just to start monitoring our water. I figure from yalls input that controling the crush, knowing my ph, and a slower sparge, u should get my efficiency up. It's crazy how the more I get into the hobby, the more I need to make a good beer!

Thanks for the input. Hopefully in about a month, you see me posting about the electric brew setup I've been working on!

 

[RM-MN]

Hey folks, just to give an update, I went ahead and bought the barely crusher. It was only $99, which appeared to be a great deal with awesome reviews. The cheaper corona mill sounds great, but I was just more comfortable with the roller style. I also bought a ph meter, just to start monitoring our water. I figure from yalls input that controling the crush, knowing my ph, and a slower sparge, u should get my efficiency up. It's crazy how the more I get into the hobby, the more I need to make a good beer!

Thanks for the input. Hopefully in about a month, you see me posting about the electric brew setup I've been working on!

I was hoping for an update on efficiency in a day or 2. I don't want to wait for a whole month.:rockin:

 

[Liveforliving]

I was hoping for an update on efficiency in a day or 2. I don't want to wait for a whole month.:rockin:

Fair enough! One more brew with the turkey fryer once my mill comes (dec. 31)! Then I'm committing to electric brewing.

 

[Liveforliving]

Fun Fact: Ordering a grain mill over a holiday ends in slow shipping. No new brewing for me this weekend.

On another note, I went to my local brew store to ask them about what size gap they have on their grain mill. Unfortunately, no one knew the answer. They did know that it was last adjusted a year ago by a local brewery.

Now I have to wait another week for the mill to arrive so I can finally put to rest if the crush was officially our problem...

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Fun Fact: Ordering a grain mill over a holiday ends in slow shipping. No new brewing for me this weekend.

On another note, I went to my local brew store to ask them about what size gap they have on their grain mill. Unfortunately, no one knew the answer. They did know that it was last adjusted a year ago by a local brewery.

Now I have to wait another week for the mill to arrive so I can finally put to rest if the crush was officially our problem...

I've had the same response at 4/5 lhbs that I've been too. Basically that it's good enough, and they don't care very much about their mill gap since it doesn't make them money in their eyes. They're missing the part about customer satisfaction, good crush = returning customers, bad crush = more likely to order elsewhere.

Advise them to buy a set of "feeler gauges" to check their mill gap at least once a month, it only takes a couple minutes and will help them ensure a strong customer basis.

 

[Subdivisions]

On another note, I went to my local brew store to ask them about what size gap they have on their grain mill. Unfortunately, no one knew the answer. They did know that it was last adjusted a year ago by a local brewery.

It has very likely widened since then. Why do they need the local brewery to adjust it for them???

 

[Liveforliving]

It has very likely widened since then. Why do they need the local brewery to adjust it for them???

Good question...They said they needed a special gap tool? But I didn't think the monster mill needed anything special.

 

[pricelessbrewing]

Good question...They said they needed a special gap tool? But I didn't think the monster mill needed anything special.

They might be thinking of a set of feeler gauges as I mentioned above which is needed to measure the seperations, otherwise all you should need is some common tools that pretty much everyone has.

 

[RM-MN]

I used to work in a small engine shop and would set the point gap (remember when engines had points?) by eye for .020", then test with a gauge. I was usually within a couple thousandths. Special gap tool that only the brewery has? Hrmph!