240v Plug in Keggle without control panel.

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davidcaz

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Hi I am planning on making a very simple keggle. I have a 5000w hot water heater element. Will be attaching to 15gallon Sanke Keg, (my current brew pot) and plugging element into stove or dryer to the outdoors.

My question is this: Can I do this without a control panel? I really just need it to bring the wort to a boil and hold it for 1.5 hrs. For me simpler is always better, as long as it works.

Thanks
 
Hi I am planning on making a very simple keggle. I have a 5000w hot water heater element. Will be attaching to 15gallon Sanke Keg, (my current brew pot) and plugging element into stove or dryer to the outdoors.

My question is this: Can I do this without a control panel? I really just need it to bring the wort to a boil and hold it for 1.5 hrs. For me simpler is always better, as long as it works.

Thanks

You'll want some type of control to be able to throttle back the boil. A control panel doesn't have to be a Kal clone. There are much simpler options out there. Take a look at the Still Dragon controller - http://stilldragon.com/index.php/accessories/diy-controller-kit.html

I'm using one and it works great.
 
Boiling things with electricity without ground fault protection is probably not a good idea. Make sure you get a GFCI breaker or spa panel for your 240 outlet.

But +1 For the simple SSR and a pwm(manual control knob)
 
Boiling things with electricity without ground fault protection is probably not a good idea. Make sure you get a GFCI breaker or spa panel for your 240 outlet.

But +1 For the simple SSR and a pwm(manual control knob)

I spoke to an electrician at work, and he figured a gfci shouldnt be necessary as any short would just flip the switch in the home panel. Got to admit though not 100% on ins and outs of this issue and wouldnt mind more info.

Probably will get the controller kit as it ships to canada.
 
GFCI is a must - water next to 220V is not a good combination and you want some assurance that making beer won't kill you.
Some method to throttle your boil is required too - you'll never be able to control a 1.5 hour boil with a 5000w element. I throttle my 5500w element to 65% and I boil off 1.5g in 60 mins.
Like the stilldragon controller above, there are plenty of simple options.
 
GFCI is a must - water next to 220V is not a good combination and you want some assurance that making beer won't kill you.
Some method to throttle your boil is required too - you'll never be able to control a 1.5 hour boil with a 5000w element. I throttle my 5500w element to 65% and I boil off 1.5g in 60 mins.
Like the stilldragon controller above, there are plenty of simple options.

I guess what my electrician friend was telling me is that the gfci feature ( when the breaker shuts off on a short) is already wired into the home breaker. Is he smoking crack perhaps? Or is there something to what he is saying. Thanks for your help.
 
I guess what my electrician friend was telling me is that the gfci feature ( when the breaker shuts off on a short) is already wired into the home breaker. Is he smoking crack perhaps? Or is there something to what he is saying. Thanks for your help.

Some breakers do have GFCI built in, but if he hasn't seen your panel, then him assuming that all of your 240V breakers have GFCI already, means that he may have been smoking some crack recently
 
Some breakers do have GFCI built in, but if he hasn't seen your panel, then him assuming that all of your 240V breakers have GFCI already, means that he may have been smoking some crack recently

Hahaha. Well that answers my question. Thanks!
 
I typically brew 8 -9 gallon batches in a 15 gallon pot without a controller. 4000w gives me a reasonable boil and boil off.

If I were to power a keggle without a controller, I would choose a 4500w element for 10 gallon batches, I think a 5500 will be too much.

If brewing without a controller, you need to match your wattage to batch/kettle size to produce the desired results.

While not popular here, I've been doing it for years with good results.

A GFI spa panel is only 60-70 bucks, and is worth the added safety.

I have also seen people power keggles with 2 120v elements at 2000w each without a controller.
 
I guess what my electrician friend was telling me is that the gfci feature ( when the breaker shuts off on a short) is already wired into the home breaker. Is he smoking crack perhaps? Or is there something to what he is saying. Thanks for your help.

I think he is wrong. You'll need a GFCI 240v breaker or a 240v breaker and a spa panel with GFCI protection. If you use a dryer and an oven for 240v, then you may have that built into that breaker; however, I don't think you can use your appliances at the same time you'd be brewing if you use the same breaker. Whatever it is, without your electrician friend putting his actual eyes on the panel, I would not trust his assessment of what you do and do not have, yet.
 
GFI needed and I recommend a simple variable SSR and a potentiometer. Still needs a control box. SSRs can fail closed so an interrupt should be placed before. If this is all out of scope, buy an off the shelf controller like mentioned above.
 
A standard breaker will most certainly not have GFI protection built in. In the US, many breakers now require arc fault protection so you'll see newer houses with lots of those, but that's something completely different.

Regular breakers are rated for specific current ratings and will switch off (or 'trip') if ever the rated current is exceeded on the circuit they control. The sole purpose of breakers is to protect the wires from overheating.

A GFI (or more accurately, a residual-current device) on the other hand is not used to protect wires or devices - it protects the equipment operator. A GFI will cut power when it detects that the current going in to a circuit does not match the current coming out of the circuit. Often this imbalance (typically only a few milliamps) is caused by current leakage through the body of a person who is grounded and is accidentally touching an energized part of the circuit.

The distinction is important: A circuit breaker saves equipment, a GFI saves lives. GFIs are designed to prevent electrocution by detecting the leakage current, which can be far smaller (typically 5–30 milliamperes) than the currents needed to operate conventional circuit breakers or fuses (several amperes).

Hi I am planning on making a very simple keggle. I have a 5000w hot water heater element. Will be attaching to 15gallon Sanke Keg, (my current brew pot) and plugging element into stove or dryer to the outdoors.

My question is this: Can I do this without a control panel? I really just need it to bring the wort to a boil and hold it for 1.5 hrs. For me simpler is always better, as long as it works.
Most certainly you can do this.

You can power the heating element directly but keep in mind that you may need some way to throttle power (otherwise it'll be on 100%). Since you're only boiling then running it 100% may be fine if your volume of beer is adequate for the element size: A 5500W heating element is good for boiling 8-20 gallons or so, or possibly more (depending on kettle configuration/insulation, ambient temperature, use of a kettle chimney, etc.). If boiling less, I'd use a 4500W heating element instead.

If you use a ultra-low-watt-density (ULWD) there will not be any problems with caramelization in the boil due to over vigorous boiling. The worse thing that will happen is that you simply boil off too much water if the element is too powerful for the amount of wort.

You should however have a way to turn the heating element on/off. Plugging it in/unplugging it is not a safe way to turn it on/off as there is a large amount of current that runs through the element. You should really have some sort of switch that is meant to handle 240V/30A for both the 4500W or 5500W element. A simple way to do this is to use a sub-panel breaker box off the main breaker panel, located near where you're using the heating element so it's easy to turn on/off. You would use a 2-pole GFI breaker rated for 240V/30A in this sub-panel breaker box as the switch to switch the 4500W or 5500W element on/off. (I know some brewers do simply plug them in/out to turn the heating elements on/off, but I feel it best to let people know the proper safe way to do things whenever possible).

For heating to specific temperatures such as is done in a Hot Liquor Tank however, there is no simple way to do this with without a control panel of some sort. Turning the element on/off periodically to try and maintain a specific temperature is not only very difficult but will grow tiresome after a few hours. You don't mention needing that but I thought I'd point it out anyway.

Good luck!

Kal
 
Thanks Kal. That really helped me understand the importance of a gfi, very informative. Also wilserbrewer, you gave me a couple great ideas there. I really appreciate all of the good advice you guys on this forum are so generous with! Cheers!
 
The distinction is important: A circuit breaker saves equipment, a GFI saves lives.

speaking strictly in terms of the nec, a gfci is a device which trips in accordance with a class a device, as defined by ul 943. this means tripping when 4-6 milliamps of current to ground is detected and is designed for personnel protection. folks should be aware that there are ground fault interrupting devices out there which do NOT trip at the 4-6 ma level but rather at 30 ma. these are often defined as 'epd' (equipment protection devices) and are for protection of equipment, not personnel. they are often used on restive heat tracing circuits (freeze protection of pipes). 30 ma is above the let-go threshold for current, meaning your muscles aren't strong enough to overcome the current and let go of the energized component. at these current levels, most people can't let go at all, regardless of how strong they are. breathing often becomes difficult as well and can even cause fibrillation with children.

luckily, these 30 ma types of devices are not going to be found at your typical big box or hardware store. they would need to be purchased at an electrical supply house or ordered online. they do show up on ebay from time to time as well so if folks see a screaming-hot deal on a gfi device, make sure it is for personnel protection!
 
I have a 5500W HLT without any controls. I have to watch it pretty closely or I'll overshoot the temperature, but it is amazingly fast.

You'll need some kind of control circuit to use it for a kettle -- or else have multiple smaller elements that are individually switched.

240V is probably *less* dangerous than 120V; it's certainly not more dangerous. My HLT is properly grounded, but does not have a GFCI. I may buy a GFCI though, if I ever get around to building an electric kettle and control panel.
 
Important to note too that the SPEED of the tripping is important.

In the United States the National Electrical Code (NEC) requires that GFI devices intended to protect people interrupt the circuit if the leakage current exceeds the 4–6 mA range within 25 ms.

luckily, these 30 ma types of devices are not going to be found at your typical big box or hardware store. they would need to be purchased at an electrical supply house or ordered online. they do show up on ebay from time to time as well so if folks see a screaming-hot deal on a gfi device, make sure it is for personnel protection!

+1.

One of most popular ones that was sold on eBay years ago that was popular with brewers looked like this:

GFIplug.jpg


It's a 30A/240V power cord to a Xerox machine, meant to protect the equipment.

It trips at 10 ma however (not 30 ma), so slightly above the 4-6 mA requirement by NEC.

It's interesting to note that in other countries the current limit before tripping may be different: In some places the trip setting may be as high as 10-30mA, by code, to protect lives.

So different countries with different codes have different interpretations of how much current is required before someone "can't let go". At only 4-6 ma, Americans seem to have the thinnest skin while most Europeans have the thickness (most countries there are at 30 ma). ;)

From a safety prospective, lower is better of course. Higher means it's less likely to generate a nuisance trip. It's more complex/expensive to produce high current GFIs with lower thresholds, which is one of the reasons why the limit's higher in some places - the things are cheaper to build. It's all a balancing act.

More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device

Kal
 
One of most popular ones that was sold on eBay years ago that was popular with brewers looked like this:

GFIplug.jpg

that is one but i was speaking more to actual circuit breakers like the qo-epd breaker from square-d:

QO120EPD-orig.jpg


it looks all but identical to their standard gfci circuit breakers but is certainly not the same thing!
 

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