240 Volt Gurus Advice Requested

[Peteinno]

Greetings. I have a NEMA 14-50R GFCI spa panel that I plan on running wiring into the existing NEMA 10-30R dryer wiring. The dryer wiring has the neutral and ground connected together which I believe is not correct, should be neutral only, the ground would be used for a metal chassis if there was one. I plan on removing the ground from the neutral connector of the 10-30 and use it for my spa panel green wire. Just wanted to make sure you guys are in agreement with me about removing the ground from the 10-30. Attached is my current 10-30 setup. Thanks.

 

[Peteinno]

FYI, just found the Electric Primer for Brewers thread and it looks like I'm going about it correctly.

 

[doug293cz]

What does your desired configuration look like? What will you be plugging into your spa panel? If you plan on plugging the spa panel into the structure outlet, you might want to consider swapping the 10-30R outlet for a 14-30R outlet.

Brew on

 

[Peteinno]

I'll be leaving the dryer outlet in place for the dryer and I will be running some wire from there to my spa panel which will power a 240V Brew Commander controller. I'm getting tired of waiting for the water to heat with 120V.

I will disconnect the ground wire from the socket.

 

[doug293cz]

I'll be leaving the dryer outlet in place for the dryer and I will be running some wire from there to my spa panel which will power a 240V Brew Commander controller. I'm getting tired of waiting for the water to heat with 120V.View attachment 865451

My understanding of the BrewCommander is that it requires a 120V outlet and a 240V outlet. How do you plan to provide for the 120V requirement?

Brew on

 

[Peteinno]

Thanks for your replies. I have a 120V outlet nearby that I'm currently using for my 120V controller.

 

[Bobby_M]

I would turn the dryer outlet into a modern 14-30P / R setup. It would just require a new appliance cord.

 

[Peteinno]

You know, Doug's comments got me thinking about something similar, replace the outlet with the GFCI spa panel. I was looking at NEMA14-50P to 10-30R Adapters for the dryer cord on Amazon. I would also need about a 15' NEMA 14-50p to 14-50r extension cord since I will no longer be moving the spa panel close to my brew area. Also a NEMA 14-50P to L6-30R adapter. Do you sell them Bobby? I'd rather do business with you than Amazon. Thanks.

 

[Bobby_M]

You know, Doug's comments got me thinking about something similar, replace the outlet with the GFCI spa panel. I was looking at NEMA14-50P to 10-30R Adapters for the dryer cord on Amazon. I would also need about a 15' NEMA 14-50p to 14-50r extension cord since I will no longer be moving the spa panel close to my brew area. Also a NEMA 14-50P to L6-30R adapter. Do you sell them Bobby? I'd rather do business with you than Amazon. Thanks.

Why adapt back down to the now illegal (but grandfathered in) 10-30 at all? Change the cord out on the dryer so it can actually use the equipment ground separate from the neutral. They changed it in the code because it's safer. A new 5ft long 14-30P cord set for the dryer is like $30 on Amazon and it should take 10 minutes to change it out. The bare/green wire attaches to the metal chassis of the dryer via self tapping screw or any other screw you find back there that goes into bare metal. Clean the vent out while you're back there.

Then you'd change the receptacle out for a (edited from original post) 14-30R. Then you can run all four wires to the spa panel so that at any time in the future, you can use any of the brewing controllers that grab both the 240v and 120v through the 14-30 connections. The Blich BC is the only controller that pulls in the 240 and 120v on two cords.

Note that no matter what you do, you don't really need any 50amp capable cords or plugs/receptacles. Just because you're wiring in a 50amp inline spa panel to gain the GFCI function, none of that circuit is going to be pulling 50 amps. You should verify that the non-GFCI breaker supplying the dryer is in fact a 30 amp breaker.

 

[doug293cz]

Then you'd change the receptacle out for a 10-30R. Then you can run all four wires to the spa panel so that at any time in the future, you can use any of the brewing controllers that grab both the 240v and 120v through the 14-30 connections. The Blich BC is the only controller that pulls in the 240 and 120v on two cords.

The red 10-30R should be 14-30R. Other than that Bobby is spot on.

Brew on

 

[Peteinno]

Change the cord out on the dryer so it can actually use the equipment ground separate from the neutral. They changed it in the code because it's safer. A new 5ft long 14-30P cord set for the dryer is like $30 on Amazon and it should take 10 minutes to change it out. The bare/green wire attaches to the metal chassis of the dryer via self tapping screw or any other screw you find back there that goes into bare metal.

Yes, that would be the smarter way to approach this, thanks.

Note that no matter what you do, you don't really need any 50amp capable cords or plugs/receptacles. Just because you're wiring in a 50amp inline spa panel to gain the GFCI function, none of that circuit is going to be pulling 50 amps.

I understand. The panel I have on hand is all wired up with a 14-50 receptacle that's why I am looking at cords and adapters that size. I was hoping to use this 'out of the box' and not have to modify it.

 

[Bobby_M]

Note if you need help understanding the cord changeout on the dryer, this is very concise:

The only SLIGHT issue with you plan is that a 14-50R sitting around is an unspoken invite for "someone" to plug an actual 50 amp draw device into it. If the spa panel is hard wired, it's definitely a code violation. A box mount 14-30R is all of $15. In practical use, if someone where to plug a 50 amp device in, the 30amp breaker in the main panel would trip, but that doesn't make it more code compliant.

 

[Peteinno]

The red 10-30R should be 14-30R. Other than that Bobby is spot on.

Brew on

I agree.

 

[Peteinno]

Thanks for the video Bobby.
I'm not sure what you mean by hard-wired but I'm using the wiring from the existing 30A connection to wire the spa panel.
I've come to the conclusion that I should switch out the 14-50 receptacle for a 14-30, as you mentioned they're cheap enough.
In retrospect, I should have checked the current wiring first to see if there was a ground wire (I read that sometimes there's only 3 wires). I just assumed that it was a three wire connection.
Now that I know, I could have probably replaced the current breaker with a GFCI breaker in the main panel and switched out the current 10-30 receptacle with a 14-30.
I still might do that and save the spa panel for another use. I'll have to take a look at the main panel. Thanks for lending your expertise.

 

[shoengine]

Now that I know, I could have probably replaced the current breaker with a GFCI breaker in the main panel and switched out the current 10-30 receptacle with a 14-30.
I still might do that and save the spa panel for another use. I'll have to take a look at the main panel. Thanks for lending your expertise.

100% like this plan.

 

[whoaru99]

Frankly, I question the compliance of that receptacle wiring even in consideration of the grandfather clause. Given the existence of separate grounding and neutral wires doesn't suggest an era of grandfathering the circuit.

I also call foul on the grounding wire and neutral under the same screw/clamp as those are supposed to be separate every place except the main panel.

 

[Peteinno]

Frankly, I question the compliance of that receptacle wiring even in consideration of the grandfather clause. Given the existence of separate grounding and neutral wires doesn't suggest an era of grandfathering the circuit.

I also call foul on the grounding wire and neutral under the same screw/clamp as those are supposed to be separate every place except the main panel.

I agree. Everything I've read states that this is not the proper way to wire the receptacle.

 

[Bobby_M]

Thanks for the video Bobby.
I'm not sure what you mean by hard-wired but I'm using the wiring from the existing 30A connection to wire the spa panel.

If the input to the spa panel was on a portable cord with a plug on it, technically it doesn't fall under NEC so leaving a 50amp receptacle on it is ill-advised but not against the code. Once you hard wire, like terminate cables under lugs in a box (anything other than a plug/receptacle connection, it then DOES need to conform to the code. The specific part that isn't code compliant is having a 50amp receptacle on cable that is only rated for 30 but it's not an issue because.....

I've come to the conclusion that I should switch out the 14-50 receptacle for a 14-30, as you mentioned they're cheap enough.
In retrospect, I should have checked the current wiring first to see if there was a ground wire (I read that sometimes there's only 3 wires). I just assumed that it was a three wire connection.
Now that I know, I could have probably replaced the current breaker with a GFCI breaker in the main panel and switched out the current 10-30 receptacle with a 14-30.

True that as long as that 4-wire cable goes all the way back to the main panel and both the neutral and ground are terminated on the ground/neutral bus, it CAN properly support 14-30R. However, it is generally advised not to run a dryer on GFCI because it can cause nuisance tripping. I don't have direct experience with it but it comes up in posts all the time. I personally think people are leaving the neutral/chassis bonding wire in place and that will 100% trip GFCI.

I still might do that and save the spa panel for another use. I'll have to take a look at the main panel. Thanks for lending your expertise.

The main reason people use a spa panel is that they are often cheaper than the GFCI breaker you'd swap into the main panel. It seems to be converging now though. Spa panels used to be $50 and a SQD QO 240v/30 GFCI was $120. It looks like you can get that breaker for $60 on Amazon right now but you have to look at what brand the panel is.

 

[shoengine]

If the input to the spa panel was on a portable cord with a plug on it, technically it doesn't fall under NEC so leaving a 50amp receptacle on it is ill-advised but not against the code. Once you hard wire, like terminate cables under lugs in a box (anything other than a plug/receptacle connection, it then DOES need to conform to the code. The specific part that isn't code compliant is having a 50amp receptacle on cable that is only rated for 30 but it's not an issue because.....

True that as long as that 4-wire cable goes all the way back to the main panel and both the neutral and ground are terminated on the ground/neutral bus, it CAN properly support 14-30R. However, it is generally advised not to run a dryer on GFCI because it can cause nuisance tripping. I don't have direct experience with it but it comes up in posts all the time. I personally think people are leaving the neutral/chassis bonding wire in place and that will 100% trip GFCI.



The main reason people use a spa panel is that they are often cheaper than the GFCI breaker you'd swap into the main panel. It seems to be converging now though. Spa panels used to be $50 and a SQD QO 240v/30 GFCI was $120. It looks like you can get that breaker for $60 on Amazon right now but you have to look at what brand the panel is.

$120 is about what I paid for my QO 50A GFCI breaker about 15 years ago. Non GFI breakers were around $15 at the time. That was a tough reality.