23 Tip Jet Burner problems

[mrbowenz]

The variable pressure regulator seems to somewhat mitigate the problem, but I'm still less than impressed with these burners.

How so , what don't you like ?

 

[Catt22]

How so , what don't you like ?

I don't like not having control over the air/fuel ratio. I could never use one on my direct fired RIMS mash tun as even at the lowest flame levels it's way too much heat. They are overkill when run at or near full throttle and a lot of the heat (and fuel) is wasted. They burn dirty at lower flame levels. There are better and less expensive options available IMO.

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree. I currently only have 6 tips running under my direct fire RIMS. That was the sweet spot for keeping the flames blue but not overheating the liquid under the FB before it was removed by the pump.

So what's the problem? I used to heat my strike in the MLT and now I can't. I basically heat about 2 gallons in there just as a preheat method and the rest comes from the HLT.

 

[mrbowenz]

I understand what both of you are saying, for my video, you can see that I can get these burners to go very low to full flame with the knob , the burner that I used(in the vid) is my BK , I have another one for the HLT, this is a HERMS system so no heating of the MT , no scorching issues .

Are your burners working like mine ?, or do you have very limited control over the heat and flame on yours ? or do you have the tips blocked up to control the level of heat and just go with all on or all off ?

Also, would you agree that mine are working the way they are supposed to ?

 

[Catt22]

I understand what both of you are saying, for my video, you can see that I can get these burners to go very low to full flame with the knob , the burner that I used(in the vid) is my BK , I have another one for the HLT, this is a HERMS system so no heating of the MT , no scorching issues .

Are your burners working like mine ?, or do you have very limited control over the heat and flame on yours ? or do you have the tips blocked up to control the level of heat and just go with all on or all off ?

Also, would you agree that mine are working the way they are supposed to ?

Your definition of a very low flame is much different than mine. I don't use these burners for the reasons I mentioned. I have a good friend who has done the same thing with his Brutus build using these burners. After much screwing around he's got his working about the same as yours and I'm still not convinced that they would be a good choice for me. They do look cool though. You can't argue that!

 

[Bobby_M]

I agree that what you show in your video is the absolute best these can do. I can't get them to adjust that much and I'm pretty sure I have too long of a run on 1/2" line which requires too much pressure with not enough volume. I get some adjustment, but not enough. I needed to get them down to like a 20kBTU flame for direct fire RIMS. I'm going to guess your minimum is closer to 50k on low with all tips burning.

 

[Cape Brewing]

So is the outcome of these posts basically that for non-direct fired MLTs these are decent burners if you can rope 'em in and for direct fired MLT's, these just put out too many BTUs?

'cause where I was coming from in my few posts were that I love 'em because they put out huge BTUs. I am only heating my HLT and BK and I want them to heat as quickly as possible without burning my house down... and for that application, I think these burners are pretty good.

 

[Bobby_M]

For HLTs, it's hard to argue that there's such a thing as too much heat but there is a threshold where the vessel just really can't take it fast enough. I feel like the 23 tip version is already overkill for a keg with 12 gallons in it.

On the boil kettle side, 23 tips wouldn't go low enough to not boil over on a 13 gallon preboil volume. I had to cut down to 13 tips for that.

Yes, direct fired MLTs are the most sensitive of the bunch. In all cases, I think the 10-tip, if you like this style burner, is the best tool for the job in 10 gallon batches.

 

[Cape Brewing]

I've got two 32 tips but I'm not using kegs... I have two 25 gallon alum pots for my HLT and BK so I have a bit larger surface area across the bottom and I am typically heating 18-20 gallons in my HLT 1) to maintain temp in the MT through a hex inside the HLT and then 2) for sparging... I stop circing my system about ten minutes before my mash is done, run off my mash and by the time my mash has run out, the HLT is up to temp and I sparge from the HLT. And for 15 gallon batches, I'm boiling down from 17-18 gallons... for larger batches, obviously a bit more.

... and like I have been saying, I love my 32s even though they don't burn completely clean. I hear what you're saying on the pots not being able to take any more heat but I don't think I'm there yet on my set up.

I get a really hard rolling boil with 18 gallons, skim off the foam and after that, there's no way i'm going to get a boilover.

I say I don't think I am at the point where I can't take any more heat because even when I have a really hard rolling boil, if I goose the valves and crank it up slightly, I'll get an even harder boil.... but flames will come shooting out the sides.

The only thing right now holding me down on the BTU's I have coming out of my burners is common sense and fire safety.

 

[freddyb]

I brewed with a new rig that I picked up a little while ago. It has two of these 23 tip jet burners set up for propane. A few days before brew day, I did a burner test and it seemed to me that with all 23 tips running, it was way too intense. The burner frame was glowing, the bottom of the keggle HLT was glowing, the wood on my deck smelled like it was about to go up in flames. In this picture, it looks like it's melting the side of the house.

With the 0-30 psi regulator, I was able to adjust it somewhat. The lowest level I could run the burner while keeping a nice blue flame seemed to be about 60% of the maximum...not very low. Even at that level, it was spilling heat around the keggle. My sight gauge was bubbling and boiling over, and it looked like the heat was actually starting to melt the plastic a bit. Way hot. I didn't like running it lower than that ~60% of max because the flame would start to get a bit more yellow than I'd like.

It definitely heated the water quickly, but I felt like I was wasting a ton of heat around the sides of the keggle and such. The branches on my mulberry tree about six feet above the top of the keggle are quite singed and crispy looking.

Also, the burner was loud enough that I wasn't able to hold a conversation with anyone on the back porch. We had to step inside the house to talk instead of yell.

I decided that I'd plug 8 of the tips for the BK burner and leave the HLT burner as-is. Down to 15 tips, the output was much more reasonable and it easily kept a rolling boil on just under 8 gallons (pre-boil volume.) I still had it adjusted towards the low end of the range on the regulator, but at one point I adjusted slightly too low and ended up reducing the volume to an active simmer instead of a boil. So, the adjustability was there somewhat. I'd say that during the course of the boil, I ran the burner in the range of 60-75% of max. And I put square patio pavers beneath the burner to protect the wood on the deck. That worked out well.

I also managed to singe a few hairs right at my hairline while lighting the burner. I really need to get one of those extended grill lighters...or at least be more careful where I'm sticking my face. Not a flaw of the burner, just me being stupid.

Anyway, I just switched my HLT to electric so I'm going with a 1 burner setup (BK.) I'll stick with an 11 or 13 tip setup depending on what works on my next brew day.

In hindsight, I wouldn't say that I'd pick this burner over others without doing a little more research. But, it's what I've got and I'm sure I'll be able to make it work.

 

[mrbowenz]

Thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread guys.


If you look at some of the other boards, you will find brewers with the same concerns and challenges with these bigger jet burners ( I can't even image what it would be like to work with the 32 tippers ) . That said , I am using mine inside with a draft hood , without too much trouble. I found that the regulator makes a huge difference in managing the intensity and btu output. I have suggested the variable regulator to more than a few and want the feedback to see if I have it right ( and can feel confident enough to keep recommending them) or if my system is one of the rare cases where lenght of run, valves, setup are just lucky enough to use them successfully. I'll agree that when running full , they are loud , but bring temps up very quickly . FWIW, I go thru a 20lb tank in 2 / 10 gallon batches, not sure what anyone elses consumptions is running.

Maybe Lonnie Mac can shed some of his thoughts on this , even though I believe he uses the 10 tip ones ..

 

[Cape Brewing]

hmmm... i guess I am confused as to how everyone seems to have slightly different experiences. For example, mine make no noise at all. Even when I take my pots off completely and jack the flame up to three feet.... no noise. gotta be the pressure of propane vs the pressure of NG??

I guess my only point wth my posts is that I dont think its is fair to say these are crappy burners. For applications where you don't need crazy BTU's... absolutely, these are NOT the burners for you.... but if you ARE looking for really high BTU's and you can get them installed with an appropriate means to control them.... which I think a couple of us have, I think they're a good choice.

I love mine and no zero intention of getting rid of them any time soon.

 

[Bobby_M]

I wouldn't call them crappy burners. I'll call them challenging, especially on natural gas.

 

[Catt22]

IMO, a burner is an extremely simple appliance and should operate efficiently without the need for modification or special accommodations. Certainly the correct burner, orifice and regulator must also be matched to the fuel whether natural gas or propane. The multi-jet burners are not necessarily crappy burners, although sometimes I do think they may be a result of a Chinese conspiracy to befuddle us home brewers. Why they would target us is beyond me.

Yes, from what I have observed, challenging is the perfect description. It wouldn't be fun if it was too easy!

 

[Cape Brewing]

Meh.. either way... I have natural gas, I don't find them to be a challenge at all and I'm not looking to get rid of them ever.

Different preference for different people I guess.

 

[Bobby_M]

We don't really know for sure but I would guess that a lot of people are 100% happy with them on both propane and NG. I completely admit that it could be an installation problem. I suggested that NG is more challenging because it's not plug and play. There are pressure and flow issues to deal with similar to how you can't run a 5000w element on a 15amp circuit.

 

[Catt22]

Meh.. either way... I have natural gas, I don't find them to be a challenge at all and I'm not looking to get rid of them ever.

Different preference for different people I guess.

Apparently it's a human nature thing and for some reason this phenomenon manifests itself among home brewers primarily with grain mills, burners, chillers and pumps, but can sometimes extend to most any aspect of brewing. Everyone loves the one they have and will defend it to the death no matter what. It has to do with brand loyalty or something like that. Very odd indeed.

 

[Cape Brewing]

Apparently it's a human nature thing and for some reason this phenomenon manifests itself among home brewers primarily with grain mills, burners, chillers and pumps, but can sometimes extend to most any aspect of brewing. Everyone loves the one they have and will defend it to the death no matter what. It has to do with brand loyalty or something like that. Very odd indeed.

I agree with you 99.999%... and the only reason I didn't type 100% is that I don't think we're just blindly defending our own equipment. I think we're missing each other on a couple different things... propane vs NG, application (low/controlled BTU vs blast furnace), controllability in general (some guys haven't been able to find the secret formula while others seemed to have found it).

For Bobby... with a direct fired MLT that doesn't require massive BTU's... ABSOLUTELY... BAD burner. For Mr. Bowenz who doesn't have a direct fired MLT and seems to have been able to find the right combination to control the flame?? GOOD burner. For me, who's set up just calls for a blast furnace and I have also found a way to control the flame... GOOD burner. For Freddy B who is on propane and is somewhere in the middle of us (it seems) in being able to control the flame while not needing a TON of BTU's... maybe not a bad burner or good burner... seems to be working buy maybe there was a better/easier choice.

I just don't want someone who reads the thread to think they are bad burners for everyone. Yeah, maybe there IS a little "defending your own stuff" to that but I've gone through two sets of burners before my 32 tips and someone would have to pull my current burners outta my cold dead hands before I give 'em up.

Bottom line is that someone reading about these burners needs to know they put out a freakin TON of heat... I mean... a LOT. They absolutely need to be scaled back for any real homebrew application but I think it can be done and it has worked out well for SOME folks.

 

[wizardofza]

Bump....

Did this silly video help anyone out with the benefits of a variable pressure regulator ?

This may possibly be the solution I'm looking for. I'm running the same burners with the same STC valves connected to a gasbeam like a Brutus. I have my system connected to a low pressure regulator - I'm thinking it's too low. With one burner on, it's burning as it should - full bore and nice and clean. When I turn on another one, neither burner burns clean. They both burn mostly yellow. If I turn the third one on then all three burn yellow.

Another thing I noticed is when I only have one burner going I can hear the propane coming out of the tank. When I have more than one burning, it's almost like nothing's coming out of the tank - no noticeable sound. It's almost like the low pressure regulator is regulating the pressure TOO LOW.

So I plan replacing the low pressure regulator with this adjustable one. I'll post my feedback once I get the thing installed and tested. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Bobby_M]

One thing to think about is the size of your supply line between the regulator and burner. Being low pressure, you can't get away with a 1/4" ID hose.

 

[wizardofza]

Now you got me wondering if that's what the problem is. I'm using a gas range supply line typically for inside use. I had a new one lying around the house. Although I don't know the exact size, it's bigger than 1/4" - more like 1/2" I would guess (I'm at work).

Would you recommend something else?

 

[Bobby_M]

No, I just thought you might have been running a small diameter tube. 1/2" should be fine for that short of a run.

 

[wizardofza]

Ah, gotcha. I'll try the adjustable regulator then.

 

[Sherpa FE]

OK
since I started this post, and I finally have time to report findings, I thought it nice if I did so.

Problem: 23 TIP jet style burner would not stay lit.
Set up: Brutus 10 frame with integrated gas beam.12 of the tips removed from each of the 3 burners.

Solutions: There was no solution actualy. The gas valve that I had if turned on more than a hair, would blow out the flame. In other words, the gas coming out would blow out the flame if turned on too high.
Both the electronically controlled burners light just fine with the pilot.

Brewing with the stand: Is actually quite nice, the burners are quiet, efficiency with LP, is about a 1/3 tank for a brew session.
The burn is nice and clean, and soot free.
I do not use a variable pressure regulator, just a standard .5 PSI, LP regulator.

If I am missing anything, or you have some questions, just let me know.
hope this helps.
Josh

 

[wizardofza]

Sherpa,

So you're currently running with 12 tips removed from each burner? It sounds like you're using an adjustable gas valve, where as I'm not. So I'm hoping that the adjustable regulator will do the trick for me.

 

[Sherpa FE]

Sherpa,

So you're currently running with 12 tips removed from each burner? It sounds like you're using an adjustable gas valve, where as I'm not. So I'm hoping that the adjustable regulator will do the trick for me.

If you are talking about an adjustable gas regulator (at the tank) then no, I am not. If by a adjustable gas valve, you mean a manual gas valve, then yes, however I only leave it cracked open.

My connections go like this...
Propane tank - LP gas regulator (fixed .5 psi) - gas beam on the stand - honeywell gas valves - gas shut off valve - burner.

I hope that clears it up.
Josh

 

[mrbowenz]

If you are talking about an adjustable gas regulator (at the tank) then no, I am not. If by a adjustable gas valve, you mean a manual gas valve, then yes, however I only leave it cracked open.

My connections go like this...
Propane tank - LP gas regulator (fixed .5 psi) - gas beam on the stand - honeywell gas valves - gas shut off valve - burner.

I hope that clears it up.
Josh

I would not reccommend using the adjustable regulator in your setup as it may cause your Honeywell valve to fail ( per other replys ), I think all you can do is block up the jets, to regulate and hope for the best. maybe too much psi .....

 

[Sherpa FE]

I dont have an adjustable regulator, for that very reason.

 

[msheraw]

In this case I really have to sit on Bobby's side. I just hooked up over the weekend the 23 tip and 10 tip (propane) burner that I purchased from shoppers choice and not only did I melt my sight glass with the 23 tip burner I feel it is a waste of time and dangerous.

IMHO guys, go with the shoppers choice 10 tip "mini" the little amount of time you might save heating is not worth the extra sight glass and carbon clean off time....


MMMMMMMMM Beer

 

[FreebootersBrewing]

Can anyone tell me what size bolts I need to plug some holes on the jet burners? Thanks!

edit: Nevermind, found it.