23 Tip Jet Burner problems

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mrbowenz

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This is horrible advice. The original poster is using a VR8304 Honeywell gas valve. It is rated for not more than 0.5 psig. Just for ****z and giggles I called Honeywell and the technician said if you put even 1 psig of pressure through the valve you risk damage.
Forgive me, I was addessing Mr. hooks and not the OP as the thread advanced, in conjunction with ASCO type valves using Jet style burners.

What LP gas regulator delivers .5 lbs psig then , the low pressure regulator on the primary side of the HoneyWell gas valve, what pressure is delivered from the 20LP ? well that depends .....anywhere from 6psig to 200psig .

Perhaps the OP will comment on his setup and results
 

msheraw

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This all a very easy fix, I should have posted this solution a while back, people plugging up burners , switching from high pressure to low pressure etc.

Please do yourself a favor and get an 0-30 psi or a 0-60 psi pressure regulator, they work the bomb on these jet type burners and probably well on all others . Get the right flame every time..

Propane Regulator for Propane Gas Regulation
I am using this regulator with the 23 tip jet burner and the thing is insane. I barely crack the tank and it seems to be on or off and that is it. No variable control. The burners are set up for propane but I don't understand how these are controllable.

I almost worried to step away from it to do the normal brewing stuff.

HELP!!:confused:
 

freddyb

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I am using this regulator with the 23 tip jet burner and the thing is insane.
Agreed! I did a test run with propane on the 23-tip yesterday and it was very intense. I'm running this with a 0-30psi regulator so there was some level of adjustability, but I'm still going to reduce the number of tips to see what I get. I have two of these burners so I'm going to play around with the configurations until I find what I'm looking for.

I plugged some (eight) of the tips around the perimeter of the second burner so that I can reduce the overall output. Tried to keep it arranged so that at least two tips always point towards each other. Didn't have a chance to test it yet but I'm brewing this weekend so we'll see how it goes.

My goal is to set up my HLT burner as the FLAMES OF HELL, and the BK burner as a more moderate heat source.
 

Catt22

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I am using this regulator with the 23 tip jet burner and the thing is insane. I barely crack the tank and it seems to be on or off and that is it. No variable control. The burners are set up for propane but I don't understand how these are controllable.

I almost worried to step away from it to do the normal brewing stuff.

HELP!!:confused:
Therein lies the problem with these multi-jet burners. There is no way to adjust the fuel/air mixture. Each individual brass jet has it's own fixed opening air intakes. These burners are intended to be operated either wide open or off. They will burn dirty at low levels due to insufficient combustion air. This yellow flame condition also produces a lot of carbon monoxide. I'd never buy one.
 

msheraw

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Therein lies the problem with these multi-jet burners. There is no way to adjust the fuel/air mixture. Each individual brass jet has it's own fixed opening air intakes. These burners are intended to be operated either wide open or off. They will burn dirty at low levels due to insufficient combustion air. This yellow flame condition also produces a lot of carbon monoxide. I'd never buy one.
I am only using them with the HLT and I called the company that sent them to me and they said that they might have sent me the natural gas ones accidentally.

Check out my blog and you can see just how they are behaving?

Homebrew Project
 

msheraw

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An infinitely adjustable regulator may be able to allow you to set just what you need! No more no less...
QUOTE]

This IS the solution, take my word for it , this WILL solve your flame problems , no plugging, no guess work, your valves open or close ...period, your pilot depends on gas to stay lit, your burners need gas, regulate from the tank, everything else will take care of itself.;) Don't over think this concept, high pressure or low pressure, it doesn't matter. Just dial in what you need

Mr. Bowenz, you seem to be knowledgeable about these burners.

Check out my blog to see what I am saying when I said even with the 0-30 regulator the flame seems to be huge or off.

I called the company that I purchased them from and they said they may have accidentally sent me the NG not propane burners. But the regulator should still have some control? If you unscrew the regulator knob the entire way out and put it back in would that affect anything?

How do I tell if the burner nozzles are for propane or NG?

Check out the blog. This is with the flame turned down.

Homebrew Project


Let me know what your advice is??
 

babalu87

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Therein lies the problem with these multi-jet burners. There is no way to adjust the fuel/air mixture. Each individual brass jet has it's own fixed opening air intakes. These burners are intended to be operated either wide open or off. They will burn dirty at low levels due to insufficient combustion air. This yellow flame condition also produces a lot of carbon monoxide. I'd never buy one.
I have a gas valve (red handle on brass at LowesHomeDepot)

Fully adjustable
Having the wrong burner (NG/Hi pressure propane/ LP) will kill you, must have the correct burner.

The brass tips are diurnal so they must be removed in pairs (see below)

 

Bobby_M

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I'd love to see a video of someone with these burners actually achieving two different levels of flame intensity on these without compromising the burn quality. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but Catt22's post is pretty much what I observe.
 

Catt22

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I'd love to see a video of someone with these burners actually achieving two different levels of flame intensity on these without compromising the burn quality. I'm not calling anyone a liar, but Catt22's post is pretty much what I observe.
These multi jet wok burners are visually very impressive to look at and they do put out a huge amount of heat when burning properly, but I have a friend putting together a Brutus 15 system who is having a lot of trouble with them.

IMO, they are marginally suitable for the BK and HLT, but not so good with a direct fired mash tun. The mash tun burner typically should be capable of burning cleanly at a low to very low flame level. I haven't seen that these burners can do that. A low pressure ring type burner is perfect for this application. It's almost the same with the banjo and hurricane burners. While these burn cleanly at any flame level, even at their lowest settings they are too hot for use on a MT.

This whole phenomenon with the multi-jet burners never ceases to amaze me. For some strange reason those who bought them prefer to modify them by plugging jets and such in the elusive pursuit of a clean burn at less than full throttle. Sometimes it's better to cut your losses and choose a different path. There seems to be a pattern with some of this stuff. Reminds me of the grain mill endorsements. It's extremely rare to hear anyone provide a negative report on their burner or mill. The truth is out there!
 

Cape Brewing

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Therein lies the problem with these multi-jet burners. There is no way to adjust the fuel/air mixture. Each individual brass jet has it's own fixed opening air intakes. These burners are intended to be operated either wide open or off. They will burn dirty at low levels due to insufficient combustion air. This yellow flame condition also produces a lot of carbon monoxide. I'd never buy one.
I have two 32-tips and fire them through two PID controlled Honeywell nat. gas valves and you're right... they do burn dirty.

But... they toss out a ton of heat and are easily adjustable by using just simply adjusting my valves.

I have the ease of a quick disconnect so I can just plug my rig into the wall in my garage. I'll never run out of gas. I toss a SH!TLOAD of heat onto my HLT and BK (I have a herms so I don't direct heat my MT) so I can get hard rolling boils for 20 gallons very quickly and I can step up 20 gallons of water in my HLT in minutes, I have total adjustability... and if that means I get a little yellow flame and some soot on my pots.... I'll live with that.

What exactly is the downside?? I'm not burning my natural gas 100% efficiently??
 

Catt22

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Do they always ignite properly from the pilot?

Do they put out excessive amounts of carbon monoxide?

In your case, you seem to have found a way to make them work for you, so I guess there is no down side.

My main issue is trying to use them for a direct fired MT. You have a HERMS, so obviously this doesn't apply.

I'm jealous of you natural gas guys. I'd switch in a heartbeat if I could.

The 23-jet burners do put out a butt load of heat. Actually too much for my preference even at moderate flame levels. They are furiously hot!

I will say one other thing about these burners. They do have a lot of extremely loyal followers.
 

Cape Brewing

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yup... fire from the pilot perfectly every time. I plug into the wall, set the pilots and walk away and then every time they fire on and then turn off it is from the PID's. The only thing I'll do is adjust the flame a bit here or there because for some reason some day the flame is a bit higher than other days.... my guess it is just slight variations in the pressure coming into the house.

I have no idea if they put out excessive carbon monoxide... I don't see how they could. They either burn the gas completely and create CO or they don't. I don't see how they create MORE CO simply due to their design but I could be way off.

My rig is in the garage and I brew with the garage door wide open in the summer and half open in the winter and it hasn't been a problem.

My only complaint is that they don't burn 100% clean... like was posted before. I DO get more yellow then I would like but also like I was saying, I'll trade that for the BTU's any day of the week.... but again... for a HLT and BK.
 

Bobby_M

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Even when mine are burning pretty clean (which takes playing with the valve and sometimes blowing the pillow of gasses away from the flames), some of the tips blow out. I've got 8 W.C. pressure but dialing it down with a regulator doesn't seem to do anything differently than the ball valve. In the end, they make heat. Sometimes I have to scrub the bottoms of the pots, sometimes not. I currently run about 6 tips on the MLT. That allows me to run the valve full open and the output wort from recirculation is not getting overheated.

I fully accept the fact that my supply might be too flow restrictive to run these.
 

Catt22

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I have no idea if they put out excessive carbon monoxide... I don't see how they could. They either burn the gas completely and create CO or they don't. I don't see how they create MORE CO simply due to their design but I could be way off.
Actually, it's the other way around. Incomplete combustion (ie. dirty burn) produces the most CO, not when the gas burns completely, although I think there is some minor amount of CO produced no matter what. They create more CO and burn dirty because there is no way to adjust the air/fuel ratio to accommodate low level flame settings.

My friend is having problems getting his to ignite automatically when gas valve kicks on.
 

ClaudiusB

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Catt2 wrote: Therein lies the problem with these multi-jet burners. There is no way to adjust the fuel/air mixture. Each individual brass jet has it's own fixed opening air intakes. These burners are intended to be operated either wide open or off.
My setup has two low pressure propane jet burners for the mash/lauter tuns and two ring burners.
10 jets for the 50l mash/lauter tun and a 23 jet for the 200 l mash/lauter tun.
Both burners run wide open or off controlled by my program.
No flame or starting problem.
To guaranty constant propane flow, each burner has his own 0.5 PSI regulator supplied by the high tank pressure.
All valves internal regulators are tuned for each burner.
In the future all noisy jet burners will be replaced with no noise ring burners.

Cheers,
ClaudiusB
 

mrbowenz

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Mr. Bowenz, you seem to be knowledgeable about these burners.

Check out my blog to see what I am saying when I said even with the 0-30 regulator the flame seems to be huge or off.

I called the company that I purchased them from and they said they may have accidentally sent me the NG not propane burners. But the regulator should still have some control? If you unscrew the regulator knob the entire way out and put it back in would that affect anything?

How do I tell if the burner nozzles are for propane or NG?

Check out the blog. This is with the flame turned down.

Homebrew Project


Let me know what your advice is??
I will try to put together a short video on the adjustability of the burners on my brewery, from your blog ( which is great BTW) it looks like those beasts need to be tamed. I will say this... It is very difficult to control the flow of gas( either NG or LP ) with a ball valve, those red handle shut off valves are for on or off operation only, the same goes with ASCO type motorized valves too, open or closed only. The flow of gas on my system works like this >

Tank( LP ) > 0-30 psi regulator> hose> 1/2" BIP> tee> 2 feeds > both have ball valve emergency shutoff> pilot, manually light ...feed> red hat> 23 tip burner. both emergency ball valves are fully open.



 

mrbowenz

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Here's a video, sorry I shot this myself to show the adjustable possibilities of these 23 jet burners :

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVW3wJh6aWI]YouTube - P1000389[/ame]
 

mrbowenz

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Bump....

Did this silly video help anyone out with the benefits of a variable pressure regulator ?
 

Catt22

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The variable pressure regulator seems to somewhat mitigate the problem, but I'm still less than impressed with these burners.
 

Bobby_M

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I have tried running my NG through an adjustable regulator but it still acted as if I were turning a ball valve. Granted, I think I'm running through too long of a 1/2" run (something like 30'). I think I might have a flow/volume issue. In other words, in order to get the flow I need, I have to leave the pressure cranked at 8 W.C. I should wheel the rig to the backyard because I have a tap off a 3/4" gas line in the basement and I can experiment without that flow restriction. I still don't know what I'd do with that data because I have more and more of a fascination for an all electric brewery.
 

Catt22

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How so , what don't you like ?
I don't like not having control over the air/fuel ratio. I could never use one on my direct fired RIMS mash tun as even at the lowest flame levels it's way too much heat. They are overkill when run at or near full throttle and a lot of the heat (and fuel) is wasted. They burn dirty at lower flame levels. There are better and less expensive options available IMO.
 

Bobby_M

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I agree. I currently only have 6 tips running under my direct fire RIMS. That was the sweet spot for keeping the flames blue but not overheating the liquid under the FB before it was removed by the pump.

So what's the problem? I used to heat my strike in the MLT and now I can't. I basically heat about 2 gallons in there just as a preheat method and the rest comes from the HLT.
 

mrbowenz

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I understand what both of you are saying, for my video, you can see that I can get these burners to go very low to full flame with the knob , the burner that I used(in the vid) is my BK , I have another one for the HLT, this is a HERMS system so no heating of the MT , no scorching issues .

Are your burners working like mine ?, or do you have very limited control over the heat and flame on yours ? or do you have the tips blocked up to control the level of heat and just go with all on or all off ?

Also, would you agree that mine are working the way they are supposed to ?
 

Catt22

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I understand what both of you are saying, for my video, you can see that I can get these burners to go very low to full flame with the knob , the burner that I used(in the vid) is my BK , I have another one for the HLT, this is a HERMS system so no heating of the MT , no scorching issues .

Are your burners working like mine ?, or do you have very limited control over the heat and flame on yours ? or do you have the tips blocked up to control the level of heat and just go with all on or all off ?

Also, would you agree that mine are working the way they are supposed to ?

Your definition of a very low flame is much different than mine. I don't use these burners for the reasons I mentioned. I have a good friend who has done the same thing with his Brutus build using these burners. After much screwing around he's got his working about the same as yours and I'm still not convinced that they would be a good choice for me. They do look cool though. You can't argue that!
 

Bobby_M

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I agree that what you show in your video is the absolute best these can do. I can't get them to adjust that much and I'm pretty sure I have too long of a run on 1/2" line which requires too much pressure with not enough volume. I get some adjustment, but not enough. I needed to get them down to like a 20kBTU flame for direct fire RIMS. I'm going to guess your minimum is closer to 50k on low with all tips burning.
 

Cape Brewing

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So is the outcome of these posts basically that for non-direct fired MLTs these are decent burners if you can rope 'em in and for direct fired MLT's, these just put out too many BTUs?

'cause where I was coming from in my few posts were that I love 'em because they put out huge BTUs. I am only heating my HLT and BK and I want them to heat as quickly as possible without burning my house down... and for that application, I think these burners are pretty good.
 

Bobby_M

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For HLTs, it's hard to argue that there's such a thing as too much heat but there is a threshold where the vessel just really can't take it fast enough. I feel like the 23 tip version is already overkill for a keg with 12 gallons in it.

On the boil kettle side, 23 tips wouldn't go low enough to not boil over on a 13 gallon preboil volume. I had to cut down to 13 tips for that.

Yes, direct fired MLTs are the most sensitive of the bunch. In all cases, I think the 10-tip, if you like this style burner, is the best tool for the job in 10 gallon batches.
 

Cape Brewing

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I've got two 32 tips but I'm not using kegs... I have two 25 gallon alum pots for my HLT and BK so I have a bit larger surface area across the bottom and I am typically heating 18-20 gallons in my HLT 1) to maintain temp in the MT through a hex inside the HLT and then 2) for sparging... I stop circing my system about ten minutes before my mash is done, run off my mash and by the time my mash has run out, the HLT is up to temp and I sparge from the HLT. And for 15 gallon batches, I'm boiling down from 17-18 gallons... for larger batches, obviously a bit more.

... and like I have been saying, I love my 32s even though they don't burn completely clean. I hear what you're saying on the pots not being able to take any more heat but I don't think I'm there yet on my set up.

I get a really hard rolling boil with 18 gallons, skim off the foam and after that, there's no way i'm going to get a boilover.

I say I don't think I am at the point where I can't take any more heat because even when I have a really hard rolling boil, if I goose the valves and crank it up slightly, I'll get an even harder boil.... but flames will come shooting out the sides.

The only thing right now holding me down on the BTU's I have coming out of my burners is common sense and fire safety.
 

freddyb

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I brewed with a new rig that I picked up a little while ago. It has two of these 23 tip jet burners set up for propane. A few days before brew day, I did a burner test and it seemed to me that with all 23 tips running, it was way too intense. The burner frame was glowing, the bottom of the keggle HLT was glowing, the wood on my deck smelled like it was about to go up in flames. In this picture, it looks like it's melting the side of the house.



With the 0-30 psi regulator, I was able to adjust it somewhat. The lowest level I could run the burner while keeping a nice blue flame seemed to be about 60% of the maximum...not very low. Even at that level, it was spilling heat around the keggle. My sight gauge was bubbling and boiling over, and it looked like the heat was actually starting to melt the plastic a bit. Way hot. I didn't like running it lower than that ~60% of max because the flame would start to get a bit more yellow than I'd like.

It definitely heated the water quickly, but I felt like I was wasting a ton of heat around the sides of the keggle and such. The branches on my mulberry tree about six feet above the top of the keggle are quite singed and crispy looking.

Also, the burner was loud enough that I wasn't able to hold a conversation with anyone on the back porch. We had to step inside the house to talk instead of yell.

I decided that I'd plug 8 of the tips for the BK burner and leave the HLT burner as-is. Down to 15 tips, the output was much more reasonable and it easily kept a rolling boil on just under 8 gallons (pre-boil volume.) I still had it adjusted towards the low end of the range on the regulator, but at one point I adjusted slightly too low and ended up reducing the volume to an active simmer instead of a boil. So, the adjustability was there somewhat. I'd say that during the course of the boil, I ran the burner in the range of 60-75% of max. And I put square patio pavers beneath the burner to protect the wood on the deck. That worked out well.

I also managed to singe a few hairs right at my hairline while lighting the burner. I really need to get one of those extended grill lighters...or at least be more careful where I'm sticking my face.:drunk: Not a flaw of the burner, just me being stupid.

Anyway, I just switched my HLT to electric so I'm going with a 1 burner setup (BK.) I'll stick with an 11 or 13 tip setup depending on what works on my next brew day.

In hindsight, I wouldn't say that I'd pick this burner over others without doing a little more research. But, it's what I've got and I'm sure I'll be able to make it work.
 

mrbowenz

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Thanks for taking the time to respond to this thread guys.


If you look at some of the other boards, you will find brewers with the same concerns and challenges with these bigger jet burners ( I can't even image what it would be like to work with the 32 tippers ) . That said , I am using mine inside with a draft hood , without too much trouble. I found that the regulator makes a huge difference in managing the intensity and btu output. I have suggested the variable regulator to more than a few and want the feedback to see if I have it right ( and can feel confident enough to keep recommending them) or if my system is one of the rare cases where lenght of run, valves, setup are just lucky enough to use them successfully. I'll agree that when running full , they are loud , but bring temps up very quickly . FWIW, I go thru a 20lb tank in 2 / 10 gallon batches, not sure what anyone elses consumptions is running.

Maybe Lonnie Mac can shed some of his thoughts on this , even though I believe he uses the 10 tip ones ..
 

Cape Brewing

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hmmm... i guess I am confused as to how everyone seems to have slightly different experiences. For example, mine make no noise at all. Even when I take my pots off completely and jack the flame up to three feet.... no noise. gotta be the pressure of propane vs the pressure of NG??

I guess my only point wth my posts is that I dont think its is fair to say these are crappy burners. For applications where you don't need crazy BTU's... absolutely, these are NOT the burners for you.... but if you ARE looking for really high BTU's and you can get them installed with an appropriate means to control them.... which I think a couple of us have, I think they're a good choice.

I love mine and no zero intention of getting rid of them any time soon.
 

Catt22

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IMO, a burner is an extremely simple appliance and should operate efficiently without the need for modification or special accommodations. Certainly the correct burner, orifice and regulator must also be matched to the fuel whether natural gas or propane. The multi-jet burners are not necessarily crappy burners, although sometimes I do think they may be a result of a Chinese conspiracy to befuddle us home brewers. Why they would target us is beyond me.

Yes, from what I have observed, challenging is the perfect description. It wouldn't be fun if it was too easy!
 

Cape Brewing

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Meh.. either way... I have natural gas, I don't find them to be a challenge at all and I'm not looking to get rid of them ever.

Different preference for different people I guess.
 

Bobby_M

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We don't really know for sure but I would guess that a lot of people are 100% happy with them on both propane and NG. I completely admit that it could be an installation problem. I suggested that NG is more challenging because it's not plug and play. There are pressure and flow issues to deal with similar to how you can't run a 5000w element on a 15amp circuit.
 

Catt22

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Meh.. either way... I have natural gas, I don't find them to be a challenge at all and I'm not looking to get rid of them ever.

Different preference for different people I guess.
Apparently it's a human nature thing and for some reason this phenomenon manifests itself among home brewers primarily with grain mills, burners, chillers and pumps, but can sometimes extend to most any aspect of brewing. Everyone loves the one they have and will defend it to the death no matter what. It has to do with brand loyalty or something like that. Very odd indeed.
 

Cape Brewing

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Apparently it's a human nature thing and for some reason this phenomenon manifests itself among home brewers primarily with grain mills, burners, chillers and pumps, but can sometimes extend to most any aspect of brewing. Everyone loves the one they have and will defend it to the death no matter what. It has to do with brand loyalty or something like that. Very odd indeed.
I agree with you 99.999%... and the only reason I didn't type 100% is that I don't think we're just blindly defending our own equipment. I think we're missing each other on a couple different things... propane vs NG, application (low/controlled BTU vs blast furnace), controllability in general (some guys haven't been able to find the secret formula while others seemed to have found it).

For Bobby... with a direct fired MLT that doesn't require massive BTU's... ABSOLUTELY... BAD burner. For Mr. Bowenz who doesn't have a direct fired MLT and seems to have been able to find the right combination to control the flame?? GOOD burner. For me, who's set up just calls for a blast furnace and I have also found a way to control the flame... GOOD burner. For Freddy B who is on propane and is somewhere in the middle of us (it seems) in being able to control the flame while not needing a TON of BTU's... maybe not a bad burner or good burner... seems to be working buy maybe there was a better/easier choice.

I just don't want someone who reads the thread to think they are bad burners for everyone. Yeah, maybe there IS a little "defending your own stuff" to that but I've gone through two sets of burners before my 32 tips and someone would have to pull my current burners outta my cold dead hands before I give 'em up.

Bottom line is that someone reading about these burners needs to know they put out a freakin TON of heat... I mean... a LOT. They absolutely need to be scaled back for any real homebrew application but I think it can be done and it has worked out well for SOME folks.
 

wizardofza

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Bump....

Did this silly video help anyone out with the benefits of a variable pressure regulator ?
This may possibly be the solution I'm looking for. I'm running the same burners with the same STC valves connected to a gasbeam like a Brutus. I have my system connected to a low pressure regulator - I'm thinking it's too low. With one burner on, it's burning as it should - full bore and nice and clean. When I turn on another one, neither burner burns clean. They both burn mostly yellow. If I turn the third one on then all three burn yellow.

Another thing I noticed is when I only have one burner going I can hear the propane coming out of the tank. When I have more than one burning, it's almost like nothing's coming out of the tank - no noticeable sound. It's almost like the low pressure regulator is regulating the pressure TOO LOW.

So I plan replacing the low pressure regulator with this adjustable one. I'll post my feedback once I get the thing installed and tested. Thanks for the tip.
 

Bobby_M

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One thing to think about is the size of your supply line between the regulator and burner. Being low pressure, you can't get away with a 1/4" ID hose.
 

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