220v in the Garage

[joutlaw]

Hey Guys,
We have been in our new house for a year and I wished I had ran 220v to the garage during construction. I have a 15 gallon 3 vessel system and I'm interested in RIMS/HERMS, but would likely still use propane for boiling. The garage has 110v 20A GFCI in place and I could likely use that for RIMS. However, I am not sure if I could do step mashes and ramp up the 10 gallon batches effectively. I also want to have the option for going all electric in the future.

We have a main panel outside and then a sub panel that is used by our bonus room's A/C and electric heat units. It appears from looking in the attic that the sub panel is fed by SER cable coming from 200A main breaker panel in our laundry room.

Being that the outdoor sub panel is on the exterior wall of garage, could a 220v line be fed off that panel? I'm thinking the wiring expense would be much less if so.

 

[katsboytoy]

I presume the garage is attached to the house. How many amps for the A/C and for the elect heaters? How many amps will you need for the garage project? You will either be using A/c or Heat so is there an excess amperage at the sub panel?

 

[The10mmKid]

Can you post some pics Joutlaw?

'da Kid

 

[etk29321]

fwiw, you're right about the rims alone not having the power at 110v. I have a similar rims and do 10 gal batches, and it would take way way too long to step up just based off the power of that element. In my case, I have my mash tun direct fired with propane, which does the bulk of the heating and the rims is mostly just for temp maintenance.

 

[joutlaw]

I presume the garage is attached to the house. How many amps for the A/C and for the elect heaters? How many amps will you need for the garage project? You will either be using A/c or Heat so is there an excess amperage at the sub panel?

Yes, it is an attached garage. See pic.

I will check the sub panel when I get home, but I believe there is 2x30A for the electric heat and either 2x15A or 2x20A for the A/C. I will have to verify the overall amp rating. Currently, the bonus room is vacant and not in use.

 

[ajdelange]

Being that the outdoor sub panel is on the exterior wall of garage, could a 220v line be fed off that panel? I'm thinking the wiring expense would be much less if so.

Probably not as that panel (?) is probably actually the disconnect for the outdoor parts of the A/C. Now if you can access the attic to the point that you can trace out the cable run from the main panel to that box it suggests that it might not be that big a deal to run another cable from the main panel to a sub panel in the garage.

Something to keep in mind that seldom gets addressed here is that you are contemplating adding 50 amps to a 200 amp service. That's a 25% increase and you need to be sure that it will not exceed the capacity of your service (breaker, wires) or the transformer on the pole/pad. And, of course, there have to be a couple of empty slots in the main panel for the breaker that feeds the sub panel.

 

[The10mmKid]

My first inclination is to abandon the 2x30A heater circuit and use that for brewing.

(Abandon meaning pull those wires off their breaker, label them and tuck them out of harms way)

We need to come to terms on descriptions before we get too involved.

Are you writing 2x30A as a 2-pole 30A, or 2 1-pole 30A breakers?

We'll get there,
'da Kid

 

[joutlaw]

I took some pics.

1 - Outdoor Panel from service line
2 - Meter
3 - Outdoor sub panel by bonus room A/C unit without cover
4 - Outdoor sub panel by bonus room A/C unit
5 - Main breaker panel
6 - Description of breakers.

It's hard to read, but it appears I have 2x70A going to outdoor sub panel. I can't tell though if there is room in that panel. It appears though, I am consuming 90A of that door panel. Is it safe to assume it could take a 50A off it. That would be ideal if so.

 

[The10mmKid]

Thank You for the pics Joutlaw.

Let's work with #3

What exactly is the 220V/30A?

You stated Heater, it's labeled as Furnace.
Is it part of the A/C?
I.E. Furnace with outside Condenser unit.

You don't have many options with that style of Sub Panel. However with a 70A feed, you could change that out to a different style.

Also, It appears the Ground and Neutral is bonded together which I don't like.
I would expect a separate ground buss to avoid confusion.

Later,
'da Kid

PS - What are your options for getting from the Sub-Panel to the garage?
PPS - That Main Panel is "STUFFED"

 

[katsboytoy]

Looking at the wire runs for the house, and the main panel labeling, you have many breakers for each room and only a very few lights/outlets on each breaker. You do have some mini's and I can't read them all. You have a 200 amp service panel but I bet you are not using anywhere near that load. Turning on a few lights or fan with a 20 amp breaker is a waste of panel efficiency. The electrician just filled up the panel. I can run a whole kitchen on a 15 and 20 amper.(20 for the fridge). What is the 30 amp "grinder"?
Yes the panel is STUFFED but IMHO needlessly.

 

[chewse]

If the breakers in your panel are all used up, the electrician will have to add an additional panel. This gets expensive. Fortunately for me, my breaker panel was on the inside wall of my the detached garage and also had to open slots for two 110v which were then wired together for a 220v.

 

[joutlaw]

Thanks for the replies guys.

No doubt I had a very conservative builder / general contractor. He did a lot of things like that in our house - overbuilding. The electrician knew I was pretty tech heavy so that may be way he built up each room like that. Notice one the labels says "GFCIs Beer + TV" That's the garage where I brew. I can get a better label of the breakers if needed.

The bonus room is electric heat with a heat pump. I assume the 2 x 30A is for the air handler / emergency heat unit the attic and 2 x 15A is for the A/C unit outside.

The sub panel is on the exterior wall of the storage room next to the garage where I brew. This is why I thought it would be ideal to feed off that panel, since it is literally next to where I brew.

The 30A grinder is for our grinder pump that pushes solid waste down to the sewer line.

 

[ajdelange]

duplicate post deleted

 

[ajdelange]

I took some pics.

1 - Outdoor Panel from service line
2 - Meter
3 - Outdoor sub panel by bonus room A/C unit without cover
4 - Outdoor sub panel by bonus room A/C unit
5 - Main breaker panel
6 - Description of breakers.

It's hard to read, but it appears I have 2x70A going to outdoor sub panel.

I too assume that the70 amp breaker is feeding your outdoor sub panel but I'd want to verify that with a current tracer (clips on to the wires in the sub panel and draws current from the system which you detect at the main panel with a Hall device - it beeps when you put it next to the breaker which is feeding the sub panel).

I can't tell though if there is room in that panel.

No, there isn't but you could always replace it with a larger panel with additional slots.

It appears though, I am consuming 90A of that door panel.

No, only 15 + 30 = 45 (on each phase).

Is it safe to assume it could take a 50A off it. That would be ideal if so.

Probably. The 30 amp breaker is labeled 'Furnace'. This suggests that it is auxiliary heat for a heat pump. That wouldn't be on when the compressor is running nor conversely or it wouldn't be full on - wouldn't make sense to me anyway but who knows what a designer might actually do? Thus you would have, WRT breaker capacity at the main panel, at least 40Amps capacity left over. But breakers are designed to stay closed for a good long time (thousands of seconds) with loads up to 25% over their design markings so that if you had you brewing gear drawing its full load (50A) on a day too cold for your heat pump so that the auxilliary heat came on (full if it is staged) you would be drawing 80 amps (assuming the brewing gear was going full tilt) but your breaker would not trip for quite a while because you would only be 14% over its rated load. Something would probably happen to get you under a total of 70 Amps before it tripped.

All this is based on speculation on my part as to what kind of HVAC equipment you have. It needs to be verified. You need to get a pro in there and have this discussion with him - not rely on a bunch of self appointed 'experts' (like me) on the internet. The kind of work you are contemplating must be done by a licensed electrician most probably under permit and inspected. If something does go wrong you don't want to give your insurance company a 'gotcha'. In this context I ask you to take my comments as guidance as to what sort of conversation to have with a pro - not as guidance on what to do.

 

[ajdelange]

Also, It appears the Ground and Neutral is bonded together which I don't like.
I would expect a separate ground buss to avoid confusion.

It's not a question of confusion so much as of keeping 'objectionable current' off the equipment grounding conductor. Looks to me as if there is a separate ground bus in there but as it is behind the breaker I cannot see if it is bonded to the neutral bus. There may be a bonding screw under there which should, if it is indeed present, have been removed. Were it not the installation would violate code and should have been rejected by the inspector. I'd check it.

 

[ajdelange]

The bonus room is electric heat with a heat pump. I assume the 2 x 30A is for the air handler / emergency heat unit the attic and 2 x 15A is for the A/C unit outside.

I was typing while you posted this. I made the same assumption. If this is indeed the case (you need to verify) then the chances you can do this seem good for the reasons I gave in #14.

 

[joutlaw]

Thanks for the help guys. I should be able to get the electrician's contact info from my builder. I figure he would be the best person to do the job.

Like I said before, the bonus room is vacant at the moment. It's likely at some point it could be used, but even then I feel the chances of emergency heat being needed and I am brewing at the same time would be pretty slim. We had a guest stay up there on Christmas Eve this year, but even then the heat from the keeping room keeps it pretty warm in the winter. I am located in MS and generally have pretty mild winters.

 

[OmegaRed]

Seems to me like someone else stated. That panel is filled up for no reason. I'd probably end up combining a few of those after calculating the loads on those circuits, then adding a sub panel out in the garage. Then running what you need from there. It will be more initial upfront cost, but easy to do and you won't have to worry about running more power out there if you need more for upgrades in the future.

 

[ajdelange]

...I feel the chances of emergency heat being needed and I am brewing at the same time would be pretty slim. I am located in MS and generally have pretty mild winters.

To be sure you need to know the 'balance point' for your system. That is the temperature (outdoor) at which the heat provided by the compressor just balances the losses. Below that temperature the auxiliary heat switches on. Some manufacturers do keep the compressor on below the balance point (it may not be pumping much heat from the outside but the PV work done by it does appear as heat at the condenser). Some keep it on down to 0 - 10 °F. In MS it would probably be unusual to drop below the balance point but if you can find out what that is (contact the system installer) then you can be sure. You could get a rough idea by noting what outdoor temperature it takes to cause the little blue light on the thermostat to come on. You could also, of course, just flip that breaker when it is unusually cold out and you plan to brew.

 

[The10mmKid]

Joutlaw,
How much amperage do you think you'll need?

Here is another suggestion if your outdoor box is rated to use this style.

http://www.lowes.com/pd_100264-82364-BQ230250_1z10wdn+4294722478__?productId=3005253&Ns=p_product_qty_sales_dollar|1&pl=1&currentURL=%3FNs%3Dp_product_qty_sales_dollar%7C1%26page%3D1&facetInfo=Quad

If your brew stand is just inside the 8' garage door, you may be able to run PVC conduit straight South out of that box. (making sure nothing is in the wall)

'da Kid

 

[The10mmKid]

Inside the garage will be a SPA panel with the GFCI